City of Calgary converting all school zones into playground zones

[polak]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

How many of those are there really?
If that's the entire basis of your position it is pretty flimsy.

What position? That there are too many playground zones? I think this thread shows that there are many people that agree with me. That and the fact that rampant playground zones are pretty much a Calgary-only thing makes me believe my position has some merit.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by polak

What position? That there are too many playground zones? I think this thread shows that there are many people that agree with me. That and the fact that rampant playground zones are pretty much a Calgary-only thing makes me believe my position has some merit.

Believing something to be true doesn't make it true.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The point of speed traps isn't to make people slow down on that particular road at that particular time. It's to make them drive within the limit wherever they drive at all times. It's to break them of the habit of habitual speeding by imposing a cost. The fact that habitual speeders complain so bitterly about photo radar suggests that getting a ticket after the fact does, in fact, have some impact.

So are less and less citations being issued as people learn not to speed? Do you think this is what the city actually wants?

[Zarley]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

How many of those are there really?

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Believing something to be true doesn't make it true.

A good portion of school and playground zones in Calgary do not meet provincial guidelines. Of the ones I drive through regularly, there isn't one that would qualify if the proper criteria were applied.

[btimbit]

Because its just laziness. Rather than using proper design or traffic calming measures, in calgary they just slap up playground zone signs, ramp up enforcement for 3 weeks a year and go "See? Safety!" While patting themselves on the back.

To CliffFletchers post on the last page: yeah, photo radar is meant to be a deterent. But if playground and school zones were such a problem that they needed to lengthen the times and combine the two, then why is the broad scope of their enforcement just a deterent? It clearly barely works since the problem is constant. Obviously posting officers at each school zone is no solution either, but what I simply don't understand is why they never try to come up with a better solution than simply fining people. If speeding in these zones was such a large problem that these changes are made nessesary, why aren't they doing anything differently enforcement-wise?

My biggest issue is why make these changes in the first place? They don't have it like that anywhere else, and there wasn't a big problem with people getting killed in these zones. It's a change for the sake of change, nothing but a waste of money and done to make people feel good about themselves.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Zarley

A good portion of school and playground zones in Calgary do not meet provincial guidelines. Of the ones I drive through regularly, there isn't one that would qualify if the proper criteria were applied.

Zarley, thanks.


But you are referencing yourself, so.....

[getbak]

I can't speak for the whole city, but I know of three playground zones in the neighbourhood I grew up in that didn't exist when I was growing up there. None of them meet the provincial guidelines for a playground zone.


This one that I've posted before: https://goo.gl/maps/DnOhU -- No direct access to any playground. The closest playground is more than a block away.

https://goo.gl/maps/HjcK3 -- Adjacent to a school, but the playground area of the school is completely fenced in and the entrance to the school is not along this road. The fence around the school yard is up a small hill and over 15m away from the road. The actual playground for the school is on the complete opposite side of the school yard from the roadway.

https://goo.gl/maps/Ncasj -- Again, adajecent to schools, but nowhere near the school buildings and nowhere near the one small playground that exists. One of the schools is a Jr High and has no playground at all. A fence runs adjacent to the road for its entire length and there is no direct access to either school from this road. This one is over 450m long.


None of these playground zones existed 25 years ago. None of them should be playground zones based on the provincial guidelines.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by zamler

So are less and less citations being issued as people learn not to speed? Do you think this is what the city actually wants?

Are less and less people shoplifting after decades of imposing penalties on people for shoplifting -or having camp fires when a ban is in effect, or littering, or letting their dogs run around without a license, etc.? Should we stop penalizing people for all those things because it still happens?

People who persist in speeding after being fined hundreds of dollars multiple times are probably too ingrained in their habits to change without substantial ramping up of enforcement, and we don't have the resources for that. However, that doesn't mean that relaxing enforcement would have no effect on speeding. Take away photo radar and we'd probably see more people speed. Presumably the threat of tickets deters some drivers, if not everybody. I know I got my first - and only - ticket at 19, and decided I had way better things to do with my money.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

However, that doesn't mean that relaxing enforcement would have no effect on speeding.

If relaxing enforcement causes people to speed more then more enforcement should logically cause people to slow down. Which is why I asked, has photo radar for example caused a drop in speeding and as a result less accidents? This is a serious question not rhetorical.

Take away photo radar and we'd probably see more people speed.

Again I'd like to see numbers on this. I've lived in places that had no photo radar and I don't remember people speeding more or there being more speed crazed drivers on the road but that is subjective. What I do know is study after study has shown that people drive at a speed they are comfortable with on a given road and road conditions, and in some cases a posted speed limit that is too low actually causes more accidents.

But as I've said before in school zones and playground zones I have zero sympathy for anyone that speeds in them, my issue is putting these zones in areas that don't need them and especially turning school zones into playground zones. This is a pure cash grab in my view.

BTW I don't consider photo radar effective enforcement because you don't get points for the infraction and you often don't even remember the circumstances. Sure you don't like having to pay but for me if I get a $120 ticket in the mail I care 100 times less than if I get pulled over even if the fine is the same.

[WhiteTiger]

Posting this one because the excuse (and consequence) is just gold.



CPS also note that in the first week of enforcement, they have handed out approx 1400 speeding tickets in playground/school zones...

[zamler]

How could anyone be dumb enough to say that?

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by zamler

How could anyone be dumb enough to say that?

From what I understand (that question was raised in the comments) that particular excuse giver was caught red handed, so to speak.

[zamler]

72 in a school zone on the cell they should lose their license.

[Zarley]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Zarley, thanks.


But you are referencing yourself, so.....

No, I am referencing the Government of Alberta's regulations on the subject.

http://www.transportation.alberta.ca...n/schlpgnd.pdf

Which clearly disprove your point.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by zamler

72 in a school zone on the cell they should lose their license.

The person doing 72 wasn't necessarily also the person on the phone.

[darklord700]

72KM/H is nuts. The cop could wait for that guy to do 72KM/H and give him a ticket. Or the cope could have parked the cruiser in front of the school zone to almost guarantee that that guy won't do 72KM/H and hence avoided the possibility of an accident.

But the cop chose the ticketing route so making $380 is more important than potentially eliminating an accident from happening.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by darklord700

72KM/H is nuts. The cop could wait for that guy to do 72KM/H and give him a ticket. Or the cope could have parked the cruiser in front of the school zone to almost guarantee that that guy won't do 72KM/H and hence avoided the possibility of an accident.

But the cop chose the ticketing route so making $380 is more important than potentially eliminating an accident from happening.

Well that doesn't sound like it was a photo radar ticket since they talked to the guy, so it sounds like stopping him asap was what happened

[darklord700]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Well that doesn't sound like it was a photo radar ticket since they talked to the guy, so it sounds like stopping him asap was what happened

It's probably a handheld speed gun the cop used. Point is the cop was there in and around the school zone. Instead of positioning themselves in front of the school zone to potentially stop any accidents from happening, he chose to stay back in the school zone and make $380.

That cop put money in front of the safety of the children.

[GGG]

I think the radar signs that post your speed are an effective reminder to reduce your speed. Before doing enforcement they should have these put up to remind people to comply, then ticket for non compliance.

[darklord700]

Originally Posted by GGG

I think the radar signs that post your speed are an effective reminder to reduce your speed. Before doing enforcement they should have these put up to remind people to comply, then ticket for non compliance.

I don't think playground zones typically have radar signs. Let's assume that a driver sped and, God forbid, hit a kid while a cop was waiting on the other with a speed gun. That cop could have position himself in front of the playground zone to prevent this tragedy from happening since he was in and among that zone already.

Not to say any cop doing this is wrong but I call their educate driver to ensure the saftey of our children propaganda BS. It's just all about money.