Tracking the anti-LBGTQ+ movement

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It’s up to those of us who aren’t bigots (which thankfully in Canada today is the great majority) to use our social persuasion to marginalize those who are.

I kind of have to agree with Pepsi' post above, Cliff. Unless you're saying your thinking on this topic has evolved (if so, nice work), it runs counter to many of your other posts. You've consistently argued that pointing out the disadvantages face by certain groups is simply counterproductive identity politics, and that the marginalized should be working to change the minds of bigots instead of calling them out and marginalizing them for their bigotry.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Cliff and guys like him, on the other hand (and I know you like him), doesn’t. Despite the very moving “we must stand up against bigotry!” platitude, he has:
- argued against gender-affirming care
- argued with people concerned over anti-LGBTQ bills in the American politics thread (and then pretended he couldn’t name one anywhere here)
- shared anti-trans catholic mom blogs and tried to pass them off as scientific papers
- never stood up to bigotry here, possibly the easiest platform to do so on (and not just in situations where he could have missed in, but in threads where he was an active participant, defended the right to share the bigoted opinion, or even criticized people for using “bigot” as a label)

Wow. It’s kinda freaky knowing someone you’ve never met has given you that much thought.

Most of that is bull####, by the way. For instance, my stance on gender-affirming care is summed up this quote:

Dr Marci Bowers, a surgeon specializing in transgender procedures who became WPATH’s president in September, said in an interview that the organization is trying to find a middle ground between “those who basically would have hormones and surgeries available at a vending machine, let’s say, versus others who think that you need to go through all sorts of hoops and hurdles.”

https://www.reuters.com/investigates...ansyouth-care/

But don’t let that stop you. You’re on a roll.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I kind of have to agree with Pepsi' post above, Cliff. Unless you're saying your thinking on this topic has evolved (if so, nice work), it runs counter to many of your other posts. You've consistently argued that pointing out the disadvantages face by certain groups is simply counterproductive identity politics, and that the marginalized should be working to change the minds of bigots instead of calling them out and marginalizing them for their bigotry.

I’m not against pointing out the disadvantages faced by certain groups. I’m usually against remedies that are group specific. You can address violence against X group by addressing violence against everybody. And poverty among Y group by addressing poverty among all people.

Most of the people who are reactionary about gender issues are ignorant and fearful. You’re not going to villify people out of their fear and ignorance. That’s why I bring up the conservatism of many new Canadians. Judging by the comments here, people find it easy to hate on conservative white men. But if you imagine maybe a Philippino or Pakistani mom opposed to teaching about transgendered identities in school, it might make it harder to denounce and vilify them, and instead think of a different approach to changing their minds (or it might not, YMMV).

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Wow. It’s kinda freaky knowing someone you’ve never met has given you that much thought.

Most of that is bull####, by the way. For instance, my stance on gender-affirming care is summed up this quote:



But don’t let that stop you. You’re on a roll.

It’s no freakier than you trying to cite a DM response I sent you two years ago as some kind of “gotcha” like you did a couple weeks ago.

But sure, you never said that “gender affirmation reinforces gender norms” and that “we should be moving past it rather than reinforcing it”?

Nor have you ever suggested that 12 year old boys who paint their nails will be encouraged to regard themselves as transgendered, which blatantly false and ignorant?

Nor did you miss an opportunity, in the very same thread and as someone who “stands up against bigots” to stand up to someone who said “From its Inception gender identity has been a vehicle for sexual degenerates to instill their degeneracy into children, and you can always rely on people like that being on the front lines pushing this thing ahead.”

Isn’t it up to people like you, who aren’t bigots, to do that?

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Wow. It’s kinda freaky knowing someone you’ve never met has given you that much thought.

I mean, maybe consider giving that a try sometime?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I’m not against pointing out the disadvantages faced by certain groups. I’m usually against remedies that are group specific. You can address violence against X group by addressing violence against everybody. And poverty among Y group by addressing poverty among all people.

I don't disagree, and I'm usually more in favour of a class-based discourse vs. an identity-based discourse because, by nature, it tends to be more intersectional. That said, we have to work within the system we have.

In Canada, that means we constantly have to deal with resource shortages, stemming from budget geeks who scream about any spending on social services. As such, we have to take a more targeted approach and provide these services to the people who need them most. How do you suggest we approach that any other way than looking through the lens of identity and systemic and social disadvantages?

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It’s no freakier than you trying to cite a DM response I sent you two years ago as some kind of “gotcha” like you did a couple weeks ago.

To be fair you're one of the most active poster for digging up old gotchas to make a point. Even if he's out to lunch, he's at the very least allowed to play on that same playing field with you.

That said I also have no idea what he said, so just calling it like I see it as an impartial third party.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

To be fair you're one of the most active poster for digging up old gotchas to make a point. Even if he's out to lunch, he's at the very least allowed to play on that same playing field with you.

That said I also have no idea what he said, so just calling it like I see it as an impartial third party.

Off topic, but of course he is, and you’re being totally fair. Anyone is allowed to remember anything anyone else posts without it being “freaky,” but it’s certainly no “freakier” to remember what was said 2 months ago than 2 years ago, so if you’re going to play that card you can’t have played on the field.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Cliff and guys like him, on the other hand (and I know you like him), doesn’t. Despite the very moving “we must stand up against bigotry!” platitude, he has:
- argued against gender-affirming care
- argued with people concerned over anti-LGBTQ bills in the American politics thread (and then pretended he couldn’t name one anywhere here)
- shared anti-trans catholic mom blogs and tried to pass them off as scientific papers
- never stood up to bigotry here, possibly the easiest platform to do so on (and not just in situations where he could have missed in, but in threads where he was an active participant, defended the right to share the bigoted opinion, or even criticized people for using “bigot” as a label)

Last time he was confronted with the fact that he never confronts far right beliefs, he said he didn’t see any value in being one of the people to stand up against it.

People don’t need to be given a list of laws and policies worldwide before they “gain perspective,” change behaviours, or take action. And who is going to believe they will when the type of people demanding it can’t even raise a finger to shut down someone making fun of pronouns.

Appreciate your post, thanks Pepsi.

Just on the Cliff thing. I hear you on your thoughts on him. I don't agree with Cliff on many things, but I do appreciate his perspective (in general terms; not talking about LGBTQ issues specifically as I admit I haven't ever really focused or thought much about anything he has said on the subject, but I will watch going forward as I respect your opinion and want to be aware of blind spots I undoubtedly have).

For a long time I couldn't figure out if Cliff was even right or left. That probably sounds dumb, but I'm talking years ago. Take this exchange from 2016 that has stuck with me after Harambe was shot at the Cincinnati Zoo. I used the "r-word" in a post before we even censored it on here:

Originally Posted by Wormius

How does a gorilla differentiate between a human adult and child? I would have thought for the most part we look entirely different from them so they could just sense the child as any other threat or intruder.

Originally Posted by Sliver

By size. They're not ######ed.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Proper descriptor? So is Negro. Perfectly proper word that was once used by most people with no animus towards blacks. And of course blacks themselves used the word Negro up until the late 60s. And yet you don't hear anyone under the age of about 80 use it today.

###### is a funny word. 15 years ago it was going the way of n*gger. It was used by teenagers, but you never heard it in a movie or anywhere else in public. Then it made a huge comeback, probably on the back of the juvenile comedy trend of Stiller, Sandler, etc. And I think people do realize it's not an especially nice or appropriate word. If you were a coach at Special Olympics, would you say "okay all you ######s, hustle up and over here and do your warm-up?"

Personally, I think it's time to move on from '######ed'. It is almost always used an insult, and I know mentally disabled people despise the word. But mentally disabled people rarely speak up for themselves, so nobody worries about upsetting them.

I think it's a good example of Cliff actually doing what you says he doesn't. That's him calling me out, btw, and he was right and I was wrong to use the word.

Anyway, liking Cliff doesn't mean I agree with him, but I do like having him here because I think he adds to a lot of conversations and even helps me understand my own perspective. He also articulates a right-leaning view without coming across as a complete braindead moron, which I don't see often (think of, like, Yoho and guys like that). Articulating a right-leaning view doesn't it make it more palatable as a perspective to me, BTW, I just like it more than BUILD THE WALL and LOCK HER UP right-wing perspectives that are totally r-worded.

I'm bothered you're bothered by his takes and I'll be mindful of how he says things in a way that I don't find bothersome, but that does bother you (you're my favourite guy here, what can I say). I suspect there's some subtlety in his arguments to which you're attuned and I'm not.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Next time there's a fresh culture war based argument with Cliff, I fully expect someone to come at him with that quote... "okay, sure, thanks for chiming in, Mr. "Negro is a totally proper descriptor for a black person and denotes no animus towards blacks", whatever you say."

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Next time there's a fresh culture war based argument with Cliff, I fully expect someone to come at him with that quote... "okay, sure, thanks for chiming in, Mr. "Negro is a totally proper descriptor for a black person and denotes no animus towards blacks", whatever you say."

“Someone”…

[KelVarnsen]

Hate to bump this thread but this news belongs here
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/csi...ence-1.7114801

[PepsiFree]

Doesn’t CSIS Director David Vigneault know that the uptick in hate crimes is just a simple reporting quirk?

This threat of extreme violence must be because we’ve crossed the threshold of the acceptable amount of rainbow crosswalks. Get the black paint out boys, we have some extremists to calm.

[Fuzz]

Who would have thought government backed hate programs might result in more hate. I, for one, am shocked that this has happened.

[MRCboicgy]

Speaking of BS

For those of you still listening to Joe Rogan for some unholy reason, he had this schlub who's been parroting the RFK Jr bs that HIV does not cause AIDS, but it's the "gay lifestyle."

This crap is dangerous, all because they want to disprove Fauci due to their anti-vax stupidity.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg54...ce-of-millions

[EldrickOnIce]

Lots of celebrations and protesting today in Greece, as the country became the first orthodox nation to legalize same sex marriage.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by MRCboicgy

Speaking of BS

For those of you still listening to Joe Rogan for some unholy reason, he had this schlub who's been parroting the RFK Jr bs that HIV does not cause AIDS, but it's the "gay lifestyle."

This crap is dangerous, all because they want to disprove Fauci due to their anti-vax stupidity.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg54...ce-of-millions

What??

Goddammit people...do you want to go back and re-fight WW2 as well?

We solved this. Its over. This is a question that has been answered. Leave it behind you and move along!

What is with people and this BS revisionism to suit their ethos and theories?

Some people need a swift kick to the head.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Locke

What??

Goddammit people...do you want to go back and re-fight WW2 as well?

We solved this. Its over. This is a question that has been answered. Leave it behind you and move along!

What is with people and this BS revisionism to suit their ethos and theories?

Some people need a swift kick to the head.

Rogan has a pretty good kick. Can he somehow kick his own head?

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Rogan has a pretty good kick. Can he somehow kick his own head?

No, but he puts his foot in his mouth all the time.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Rogan has a pretty good kick. Can he somehow kick his own head?

Who has a great kick? Van Damme?

Can we crowdfund to get JCVD to just crank Rogan in the mind?

We might have to all share a Nobel Prize.