[PGT] Flames lose 4-3. Questionable Team Defense

[Travis Munroe]

Nobody is pumping Ramos tires. He is a good backup goalie in this league.
The only aspect of the flames that played over their head last year was goaltending.

Last night Ramo gave us a solid chance at winning, he did not steal the show nor did he pack it in. He did exactly what most around the league would expect. We as flames fans are blinded by the face he is "a starter" on this team and his expectations are higher than they should be.
We have a D group that should be one of the best in the league. If they play as such, we stand a much better chance of winning. If they are going to s**t the bed, we have little to no chance. This team has not been built around goaltending but it has been built around defense.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Realtor 1

Nobody is pumping Ramos tires. He is a good backup goalie in this league.
The only aspect of the flames that played over their head last year was goaltending.

Last night Ramo gave us a solid chance at winning, he did not steal the show nor did he pack it in. He did exactly what most around the league would expect. We as flames fans are blinded by the face he is "a starter" on this team and his expectations are higher than they should be.
We have a D group that should be one of the best in the league. If they play as such, we stand a much better chance of winning. If they are going to s**t the bed, we have little to no chance. This team has not been built around goaltending but it has been built around defense.

The Flames could have won - in spite of Ramo. Not because of him.

Maybe you're right, expectations are too high. I expect my starting goalie to have a save percentage >.900, maybe we should adjust that downwards.

Listen the whole team D is pretty bad, but let's not try to rationalize that Ramo is doing ok. He's not. His performance has been pathetic.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Poe969

Who really cares about the history of the franchise, the only history of the panthers that I give a damn about now is what happened last night.

That's exactly my point. Whatever the history, it doesn't have much bearing on the way things are now.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by heep223

The Flames could have won - in spite of Ramo. Not because of him.

Maybe you're right, expectations are too high. I expect my starting goalie to have a save percentage >.900, maybe we should adjust that downwards.

Listen the whole team D is pretty bad, but let's not try to rationalize that Ramo is doing ok. He's not. His performance has been pathetic.

I think with a .900 save percentage, this is a playoff team.

I find team defence crumbles as a result of lack of confidence in the goalie. Flames have good d-men and good defensive forwards, so this system should work. In my mind, it's the weak goalies that are hindering the whole team system.

At 900, the team plays better and they let in far fewer goals.

If I were GM, I am not sure if I pray to the little baby Christmas Jesus that Ramo/Hiller find their game again, or if I pray to the little baby Christmas Jesus another GM is willing to trade his capable goal tender.

But Baby Jesus needs to make one of those two scenarios happen. And quickly because the problem will only get worse as time goes on.

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I think with a .900 save percentage, this is a playoff team.

I find team defence crumbles as a result of lack of confidence in the goalie. Flames have good d-men and good defensive forwards, so this system should work. In my mind, it's the weak goalies that are hindering the whole team system.

At 900, the team plays better and they let in far fewer goals.

If I were GM, I am not sure if I pray to the little baby Christmas Jesus that Ramo/Hiller find their game again, or if I pray to the little baby Christmas Jesus another GM is willing to trade his capable goal tender.

But Baby Jesus needs to make one of those two scenarios happen. And quickly because the problem will only get worse as time goes on.

I am not trying to defend the goaltending because it hasnt been good. But at the same time do you think it is coincidence that the last two games (Philly and Pens) were our best defensive performances and the goaltending was well above .900.

Defensive play goes a long way in padding and tanking the goaltenders stats. Ramo is probably a .900 goalie on an average team and should be a .910 goalie on this team when they are playing well. Hes average backup quality and when the D are playing like they should it should be enough to win.

Edit: that being said he hasnt done himself a lot of favours this year but the defensive play hasnt helped much.

[dash_pinched]

Last year, I think the Flames goalies (going on save percentage) were right about middle in the league (somewhere around 16th or so, too lazy to look up). Thus, I agree with the sentiment that if the Flames get average goaltending, this is a playoff team. This isn't to let the defense corps off the hook as they need to be better as a unit overall, but last night, the Flames needed a save when the score was 3-3 and didn't get that save.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Samonadreau

I am not trying to defend the goaltending because it hasnt been good. But at the same time do you think it is coincidence that the last two games (Philly and Pens) were our best defensive performances and the goaltending was well above .900.

Defensive play goes a long way in padding and tanking the goaltenders stats. Ramo is probably a .900 goalie on an average team and should be a .910 goalie on this team when they are playing well. Hes average backup quality and when the D are playing like they should it should be enough to win.

Edit: that being said he hasnt done himself a lot of favours this year but the defensive play hasnt helped much.

It's a little bit of chicken/egg dilemma. What causes what to be bad. You could argue that the Flames played well defensively because Ramo made some good saves instilling a bit of confidence in the lads.

For my money, the regularly scheduled weak goals leads to the crumbling of defensive structure and confidence, rather than overall weak defense leading to weak goal-tending. It's a fine line, and I could very well be wrong, but that is my theory anyway.

[Samonadreau]

On a positive Grant was good again. And being physical. Hope he sticks around.

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I find team defence crumbles as a result of lack of confidence in the goalie.

It amazes me how this argument never works the other way, never. How about we once argue that the goalies crumble because the D infront constantly turns over the puck and the team generally is playing terrible hockey.

[Gaskal]

So, my 'Always Earned, Never Given' recommendations:

1.) Demote Giordano to play with Engelland on the 2nd line, Brodie with Dougie on 1st
2.) Make Wideman sit in the pressbox and give him extra time with Ramo at the end of practice for shooting.
3.) Smid comes in to play 3rd pairing with Russell
4.) Demote Hudler to the 3rd line, bump up David Jones to 1st line
5.) Play Ortio next game

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

It's a little bit of chicken/egg dilemma. What causes what to be bad. You could argue that the Flames played well defensively because Ramo made some good saves instilling a bit of confidence in the lads.

For my money, the regularly scheduled weak goals leads to the crumbling of defensive structure and confidence, rather than overall weak defense leading to weak goal-tending. It's a fine line, and I could very well be wrong, but that is my theory anyway.

Perception plays a part. Ramo and Luongo make pedestrian saves, that's a 2-1 Flames win at the end and no one is talking about defensive breakdowns at all, even though there were some.

[Travis Munroe]

All of the above would make sense based on last years mantra but Hartley has to be feeling the pressure more than anyone right now and such a move looks terrible on paper and could end up hurting Hartley even more in the long run.

I agree though that perhaps it is Bob who needs to step back and get back to the basics, take a flyer and run with it. Jones, Johny, Bennett and Frolik have been the only ones deserving of #1 time.
Colborne, Jooris, Grant have been deserving of #2 time (based on effort and hustle)
Backlund, Mony and Hudler as #3

[Igottago]

I'm keeping an eye on the big picture, not just this season. The team still needs to address a lot of areas and continue growth in others. So long as the core (Hamilton, Gaudreau, Monahan, Bennett) continue to learn and get better, I'm ok. Those guys are all still very young. The rebuild is not over (clearly).

I am concerned that the Flames bet too heavily on Gio. He's a good player, and I think he will still play some good hockey in the next few seasons, but I dunno if he's truly the elite guy that he looked to be the last year or so. As others have suggested, depending on how the season goes, it might not be the worst thing to explore a trade if there's good value coming back.

This team is 2-3 years away from where we want them to be. Everyone needs to keep that in mind. We all knew the rebuild would have some pain, we were just pleasantly suprised last year.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Saqe

It amazes me how this argument never works the other way, never. How about we once argue that the goalies crumble because the D infront constantly turns over the puck and the team generally is playing terrible hockey.

It's definitely not never. Dubnyk comes to mind. Scivens. Bobrovsky.

These goalies crumbled because the team in front of them played bad.

In the Flames instance, I happen to think it's the other way around. So, sue me.

[dash_pinched]

Last night reminded me of the recent Colorado game, team battled back from a 3-1 deficit to tie the game 3-3 only to end up on the wrong end of the score sheet. Last year's team somehow found a way to at least get a point (and sometimes both points), this year's team so far hasn't recaptured the magic.

[DomeFoam]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I think Treliving should explore trading Giordano while he still has value. Despite his struggles I believe a defensive needy team would offer up a good forward or even goaltender.

The only thing losing value is your word. This is so out to lunch its absurd, guy just recovered from a massive injury and we are a month into the season.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Gaskal

So, my 'Always Earned, Never Given' recommendations:

1.) Demote Giordano to play with Engelland on the 2nd line, Brodie with Dougie on 1st
2.) Make Wideman sit in the pressbox and give him extra time with Ramo at the end of practice for shooting.
3.) Smid comes in to play 3rd pairing with Russell
4.) Demote Hudler to the 3rd line, bump up David Jones to 1st line
5.) Play Ortio next game

1. not sold on the idea that anything will wake up the D pairings, there's something missing over all.

2. Could do that. Wouldn't hurt. Having Smid get chewed up by TB may not be the best idea in the world though.

3. See #2.

4. Can't really do much with Huds that hasn't been done. The line up on paper every night is mixed up and sent through the washing machine througout the game. Lines are always mixed and matched. Lack of consistency again creates issues.

5. Yeah right. When Pigs fly on their own will we see Hartley give up on Ramo. Only way Ramo doesn't get a start in the foreseeable future? He gets injured. I hate Ramo and Hartleys stubborn and devout faith in him. Drives me nutty just thinking about it.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I think with a .900 save percentage, this is a playoff team.

I find team defence crumbles as a result of lack of confidence in the goalie. Flames have good d-men and good defensive forwards, so this system should work. In my mind, it's the weak goalies that are hindering the whole team system.

At 900, the team plays better and they let in far fewer goals.

If I were GM, I am not sure if I pray to the little baby Christmas Jesus that Ramo/Hiller find their game again, or if I pray to the little baby Christmas Jesus another GM is willing to trade his capable goal tender.

But Baby Jesus needs to make one of those two scenarios happen. And quickly because the problem will only get worse as time goes on.

There are a bunch of Flames fans that have become just as delusional as Oilers fans have been over the past two or three seasons. All the problems lay at the feet of the goaltenders. It's the goaltenders fault. All we need is another goaltender. We just need to trade for a goaltender and all our troubles go away!

News flash! When all of your goaltenders produce similar results, and post similar numbers, the problem isn't the goaltending. There are much bigger fish to fry here and it ain't the goaltending that is the root cause of the Flames problems. The Flames need the defense rebuilt, the forwards cleaned out of useless vets, and the systems changed from the predictable stretch pass game that is no longer working. Maybe when those things happen we'll see whether we have a real goaltending issue, because as it is, we are no different from that team up the road who doesn't play a solid team game.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by adc

LOL so now you are just making up hypothetical BS to justify your hatred of Hiller?

Why would it be worse if Hiller was in net? Over their careers Hiller has shown to be a much better goalie than Ramo.

A goaltender like Ramo that can't stay in the net or control rebounds is worthless in the new, old, ancient, future or any other NHL.

Originally Posted by adc

That's the same thinking you had with all the shooter tutor BS posts?

If you aren't moon, you're doing a great impression.

Your style and post mannerisms are hard to get away from.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Igottago

This team is 2-3 years away from where we want them to be. Everyone needs to keep that in mind. We all knew the rebuild would have some pain, we were just pleasantly suprised last year.

Agree with this, but I think a big focus of the "rebuild" years is to establish and fortify an identity and playing style. That looked to be trending in the right direction at the latter end of 2013-14 and through 14-15. But right now, those gains seem in jeopardy.

I'm fine with losses, but the way this team is losing games is worrisome.