[News] New Arena - Plan B - Victoria Park

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Muta

It gets costlier because labour prices inevitably go up, and as the city grows in population, density and infrastructure around that area, leaving that area untouched makes it more challenging to shut it down for cleanup. Not impossible, just more challenging. As an example, when the airport tunnel was built, everyone bitched at the cost of it, but doing it years later (ie. now) would have brought the cost up by many millions. I was involved with that project during its construction. Now it's a critical piece of infrastructure that is paid for and serving Calgary and will only grow in importance as it is eventually connected to the ring road.

The airport tunnel was a whole different issue.

For that, it was the choice between building it as a simple cut and cover before the runway was built on top of it, or wait until the runway was built and spend at least 3 times as much to bore a tunnel underneath an active runway.


For the West Village, there is no such urgency. As long as the contamination is properly contained, there's no reason to disturb it until it's time to build on the land.

For one thing, the city owns the land, which I assume means they collect rent for the use of the land from Greyhound and the car dealers. Starting the clean-up with no development plan would mean evicting the current tenants and foregoing that revenue. Also, there's a good chance that when construction begins, a lot of the contaminated soil will be removed as part of the construction (e.g. digging a hole to build an underground parkade).

If they clean all the soil now only to have it hauled away when it's time for construction to begin, they'd just be doing extra unneeded work. Labour costs might be lower, but it doesn't save you money if you're doing twice as much work to get to the same point ten years from now.

[Barnes]

And there's technlogy. Maybe when it's time to develop the WV there will be some kind of creosote eating cyborg enzyme invented.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by getbak

The airport tunnel was a whole different issue.

For that, it was the choice between building it as a simple cut and cover before the runway was built on top of it, or wait until the runway was built and spend at least 3 times as much to bore a tunnel underneath an active runway.


For the West Village, there is no such urgency. As long as the contamination is properly contained, there's no reason to disturb it until it's time to build on the land.

For one thing, the city owns the land, which I assume means they collect rent for the use of the land from Greyhound and the car dealers. Starting the clean-up with no development plan would mean evicting the current tenants and foregoing that revenue. Also, there's a good chance that when construction begins, a lot of the contaminated soil will be removed as part of the construction (e.g. digging a hole to build an underground parkade).

If they clean all the soil now only to have it hauled away when it's time for construction to begin, they'd just be doing extra unneeded work. Labour costs might be lower, but it doesn't save you money if you're doing twice as much work to get to the same point ten years from now.

I'm not saying do it now. I'm just saying the longer you wait, the higher labour costs go. That's simply the case with any infrastructure development as they're postponed. The city knows that there's an expanded tax base to be tapped into once the West Village is developed. That said, it would be dumb to do it now with no concrete development plan in place and lose the tax / revenue generated from the dealerships / Greyhound station, respectively.

Doesn't change the fact that the land has to be remediated at some point. Also, the process isn't as easy as just 'removing' the contaminated soil as part of construction... there's runoff and drainage issues with the river close by that has to be addressed in the process. It's not as simple as it seems.

[NiklasSundblad]

Originally Posted by Muta

It gets costlier because labour prices inevitably go up, and as the city grows in population, density and infrastructure around that area, leaving that area untouched makes it more challenging to shut it down for cleanup. Not impossible, just more challenging. As an example, when the airport tunnel was built, everyone bitched at the cost of it, but doing it years later (ie. now) would have brought the cost up by many millions. I was involved with that project during its construction. Now it's a critical piece of infrastructure that is paid for and serving Calgary and will only grow in importance as it is eventually connected to the ring road.

And, this has nothing to do with demand right now. But, it does have something to do with preparing for that demand in the future. Right now, the city knows it has an opportunity to capitalize on a potential tax base by densifying the West Village with residential and commercial development. That's why there's a development plan for that area. This discussion is much bigger than an arena, which you keep going back to. There will a West Village development at some point.

Whether you like it or not, that area will be developed, arena or not, and that creosote issue will need to be addressed. It's not a question of if, but when.

Supply and demand are what's more important here than labour costs. Right now the city has an abundance of undeveloped or underdeveloped land, that we're still like 3 construction boom cycles away from even coming close to filling. (particularly in the east Beltline and along 9th and 10th Avenues.)

Paying upteen millions of dollars to fix a bunch of land just so you can flood an already saturated market is stupid economics 101. That is why the City wants to sit on it.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[UpperLoge]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

A smarter idea IMO from a land use perspective would be to replace the grandstand with a stadium that 11 days a year has the chucks run around/through it and a rodeo/grandstand show in it. Build it one side at a time to reduce Stampede interruptions (i.e. the side inside the track first, then demo the grandstand and build the side second).

There would certainly be some challenges turning it into an intimate rodeo/chuckwagon/grandstand venue 11 days a year, but you've gotta think there's a way for that to be resolved. First thing that comes to mind is mass seating on one side ala the current grandstand and roll-in fancy suite seating ala the current infield.

I've been saying just that for years. Now that horse race betting is not really a thing with satellite race/betting, that Grandstand is only used for 2 weeks a year. Make it multi-functional, get some good box/luxury seating in it that can be used for both Chucks/Rodeo and Football/Soccer and you get more event dates out of the facility in one footprint.

Anyway, I'm far from an expert, but I played around with a free online autocad program and did up a rough brainstorm a couple weeks back.



I'm sure an actual designer/architect could fancy that up. But the rodeo infield would fit nicely inside a football/soccer footprint. Event deck and dirt for the chucks/rodeo, and for football, close in the endzones with party deck seating like the Cabin area they have at TD Place in Ottawa. I'd say the East grandstand could be much like the Ottawa 'small side' with more box/luxury and a smaller footprint, and the West side grandstand (that would replace the current Grandstand) would be the bigger of the two. The pic above is actually my first draft. I did another where the big screen went in the other endzone, that opened up the north side so you'd see the Chucks come around the final corner to the line more clearly, and also not have sun shining directly on the screen.

Anyway, feel free to discuss, disparage, design, iterate.

I think it's something worth exploring, and added bonus, the Stampeders would play at the Stampede. Just seems fitting somehow.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by UpperLoge

I've been saying just that for years. Now that horse race betting is not really a thing with satellite race/betting, that Grandstand is only used for 2 weeks a year. Make it multi-functional, get some good box/luxury seating in it that can be used for both Chucks/Rodeo and Football/Soccer and you get more event dates out of the facility in one footprint.

Anyway, I'm far from an expert, but I played around with a free online autocad program and did up a rough brainstorm a couple weeks back.



I'm sure an actual designer/architect could fancy that up. But the rodeo infield would fit nicely inside a football/soccer footprint. Event deck and dirt for the chucks/rodeo, and for football, close in the endzones with party deck seating like the Cabin area they have at TD Place in Ottawa. I'd say the East grandstand could be much like the Ottawa 'small side' with more box/luxury and a smaller footprint, and the West side grandstand (that would replace the current Grandstand) would be the bigger of the two. The pic above is actually my first draft. I did another where the big screen went in the other endzone, that opened up the north side so you'd see the Chucks come around the final corner to the line more clearly, and also not have sun shining directly on the screen.

Anyway, feel free to discuss, disparage, design, iterate.

I think it's something worth exploring, and added bonus, the Stampeders would play at the Stampede. Just seems fitting somehow.

Isn't a horse track large enough to put a football field inside it? This is an honest question, I know the infield of a Nascar track has been used to hose a football game before, although IIRC it was a half mile track

[GordonBlue]

lol @ flames and Ken King.
they're not fooling anyone.

Ken King on one hand says "the Flames organization is not asking anybody to give us money."

then on the other hand says "there will be public participation.
What form that takes is up to the city. How they source funding is up to them."

King, I'm pretty sure that public participation is asking for money. it may not actually be barrels of cash, but you have your truck backed up to the taxpayers door.

[TheFlamesVan]

Originally Posted by getbak

For the West Village, there is no such urgency. As long as the contamination is properly contained, there's no reason to disturb it until it's time to build on the land.

Now I'm no expert on the contamination, but I was under the impression it isn't contained. I know the city tests the soil across the river and I believe the soil in Broadview is contaminated.

[Ducay]

I don't mind the Grandstand/Field combination, but isn't the whole rationale for including the football field in the plan so that you could 2for1 in a fieldhouse for the city? A new, but still cruddy, outdoor football field isn't really addressing a need for the city.

[Ruttiger]

Also posted in the Edmonton is No Good thread - thought it applied to both:

http://calgaryherald.com/news/politi...lenges-calgary

[Muta]

Originally Posted by NiklasSundblad

Supply and demand are what's more important here than labour costs. Right now the city has an abundance of undeveloped or underdeveloped land, that we're still like 3 construction boom cycles away from even coming close to filling. (particularly in the east Beltline and along 9th and 10th Avenues.)

Paying upteen millions of dollars to fix a bunch of land just so you can flood an already saturated market is stupid economics 101. That is why the City wants to sit on it.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

I never said do it now.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Ducay

I don't mind the Grandstand/Field combination, but isn't the whole rationale for including the football field in the plan so that you could 2for1 in a fieldhouse for the city? A new, but still cruddy, outdoor football field isn't really addressing a need for the city.

McMahon is now considered the worst outdoor stadium in the country so any new outdoor stadium is going to look fantastic in comparison. I liked the Flames vision of an indoor stadium because this country really only has two indoor stadiums (BC Place and Rogers Center). Most of the Grey Cups in the past few decades have been held in those two facilities so Calgary having an indoor stadium would likely result in the city hosting the Grey Cup every 4 or 5 years which is a week long festivity. There would likely be the opportunity to house some larger scale concerts or exhibitions year around like you see in BC place as well as you don't have this big outdoor stadium idle for 6 or 7 months of a year.

[RougeUnderoos]

Whatever the hypothetical arrangement would be for a football stadium in Stampede Park, if the Stamps played there, they would be forced onto the road for a month in the middle of the season, every season.

The Stampede itself is only 10 days, but the grounds are full of people building things and getting ready at least two weeks before it starts and then tearing down for at least a week after. It just doesn't seem feasible, even though I personally would love it if they played there.

[temple5]

Originally Posted by Muta

It's unfortunate that the creosote issue isn't being dealt with, CalgaryNEXT or not. The longer we wait, the costlier it likely gets to clean up, and the longer badly needed development is delayed in that area. So much wasted potential there right now.

The City for once is attempting to maximize its dollars by trying to focus/force development in East Village and Rivers district where it has already spent money to prime the city for development with the CRL.

Even starting cleanup of the West Village at this time would likely reduce development in the EV and Rivers as developers may hold off for a more profitable development in the West.

I can see the City and CMLC working together to start the ball rolling once the EV and Rivers at some % of build out. The worst would be to have 12 story towers built in this economic climate when we could have 32 story towers.

Also who knows, maybe when the West Village is a real concept, they might decide on and have funding for an on-street tram for 14th Street to better server that area.

[temple5]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

A smarter idea IMO from a land use perspective would be to replace the grandstand with a stadium that 11 days a year has the chucks run around/through it and a rodeo/grandstand show in it. Build it one side at a time to reduce Stampede interruptions (i.e. the side inside the track first, then demo the grandstand and build the side second).

There would certainly be some challenges turning it into an intimate rodeo/chuckwagon/grandstand venue 11 days a year, but you've gotta think there's a way for that to be resolved. First thing that comes to mind is mass seating on one side ala the current grandstand and roll-in fancy suite seating ala the current infield.

I am glad someone else also thinks this. I wish this somehow could come together. Combine a Stadium and the Stampede grandstand. Sizing would have to be similar but getting the City, Stampede, and Flames/Stamps to work on that would take Olympic style bribe money

[temple5]

Originally Posted by TheFlamesVan

Now I'm no expert on the contamination, but I was under the impression it isn't contained. I know the city tests the soil across the river and I believe the soil in Broadview is contaminated.

Province just approved funding to test land in West Hillhurst according to a recent mayoral youtube interview.

So we will probably know in a few months if it has seeped across the river. Im assuming its been tested before the mitigation procedures were put in so they can measure whether those have been effective or not.

[Ducay]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

McMahon is now considered the worst outdoor stadium in the country so any new outdoor stadium is going to look fantastic in comparison. I liked the Flames vision of an indoor stadium because this country really only has two indoor stadiums (BC Place and Rogers Center). Most of the Grey Cups in the past few decades have been held in those two facilities so Calgary having an indoor stadium would likely result in the city hosting the Grey Cup every 4 or 5 years which is a week long festivity. There would likely be the opportunity to house some larger scale concerts or exhibitions year around like you see in BC place as well as you don't have this big outdoor stadium idle for 6 or 7 months of a year.

I don't disagree McMahon is an old dump (similar to how Saddledome compares to NHL arenas), but given where we can spend our tax dollars, a new single use (ie non-fieldhouse) football stadium is pretty much bottom of the list. NHL is one thing, but CFL your % base of support for tax dollars is approaching a rounding error.

If CSEC wants to pay to refurb McMahon, or build a new stadium, I'm all for it.

[TheFlamesVan]

I can't imagine a scenario where the Stampede would want to mess with their grandstand for a CFL team that likely pulls in a fraction of what the Stampede makes. There are a lot of factors to consider beyond: It fits. The drainage, slope and footing of the race track is incredibly important for safety. I don't see it being able to be multi purpose, or worth the cost or risk.

Plus anything larger than the in-field as it is will take away from the pens where the animals are kept during competition, trailers for competitors etc... I also see the football field being centred significantly north of the current finish line... so it will be like a CFL version of Barclays.

[temple5]

Originally Posted by Ruttiger

Also posted in the Edmonton is No Good thread - thought it applied to both:

http://calgaryherald.com/news/politi...lenges-calgary

I read that yesterday. I know quite a few property tax payers in the city, of few of which are die hard fans, and none of them feel like that. A few of the socialist government workers love the new culture buildings but everything associated with the Arena is a black hole.

A little forgotten aspect of the whole arena district deal is the City is occupying something like 40 floors of the new Katz A-rated skyscraper which means that at least 3 B-rated buildings they currently rent will have zero tenancy rate. So 600m is not the only corporate welfare that was doled out, there will be alot more doled out in inflated rents over the next few decades.

I think the only people who feel the "rush" of civic pride are die hard Oilers fans who dont relate future city debt to future increase property taxes of lack of other services. If there was no playoff games, you probably wouldnt have seen this article.

Edmonton does seem to have a similar civic government focus of increasing density and maximizing transit budget effectiveness by drastically reducing suburban routs and focusing on frequency on high traffic routes. But then again they recently attempted to annex all the land to Nisku and Beaumont - I dont see many TOD developments going south of Elerslie road

As an aside, it is a unusually poor article from Don Braid where he attempts to equate the government money spent in Edmonton on Museums to Calgary getting a ring road. I wonder if Mr Braid has spent any time driving in Edmonton except to and from the Leduc International Airport and downtown. Edmonton already has 100% of its ring road built where Calgary only has 50% completed and a semi commitment to have it 75% done in 7 years.

I think we all understand, Edmonton will always get more government money because the capital is there. They have to at least attempt to spend their way out of middle of no where prairie geography to try to attract a few measly tourists Edmonton is no fkn good.

[temple5]

Originally Posted by TheFlamesVan

I can't imagine a scenario where the Stampede would want to mess with their grandstand for a CFL team that likely pulls in a fraction of what the Stampede makes. There are a lot of factors to consider beyond: It fits. The drainage, slope and footing of the race track is incredibly important for safety. I don't see it being able to be multi purpose, or worth the cost or risk.

Plus anything larger than the in-field as it is will take away from the pens where the animals are kept during competition, trailers for competitors etc... I also see the football field being centred significantly north of the current finish line... so it will be like a CFL version of Barclays.

The grandstand takes up a huge swath of land on the southern dead zone of the Stampede grounds. It is used for profitable operation maybe 2 weeks a year? If the Stampede really wanted to maximize the profitability of their land they would want to increase the utilization factor. If you worked in a field for CFL or even future MLS or anything else they you would also get outdoor concerts.

If you did that the UofC likely tears down McMahon Stadium and you get all the University events there as well.

Its just a thought. The Stampede board has had to at least had the idea of what to do with building that is so poorly utilized but is also needed for their purposes. Without a combination of facilities nothing will ever be done with the Grandstand.

Is it possible they could fit such a facility on the grounds of the current Saddledome and then you could develop the current grandstand land?

Obviously its just a dream to be able to combine the facilities some how. If a new one was built, I dont see the Stampeders being to sad about having a few back to back road games every year.

One of Calgarys greatest strengths is that the Stampede is in a fantastic location to house these types of projects where Edmontons Northlands grounds are not.