09-09-2007, 04:15 AM
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#1
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Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sec 216
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Oprah endorses sweatshops...
so i was eating a bowl of cereal late at night and i had nothing to read so i picked up my moms copy of O magazine. For those of you who aren't familiar this is Oprah's magazine of which she puts herself on the cover of every issue ever. (the August 2007 issue in case anyone wants to read it)
I saw an article where people asked questions about random stuff that worries them. i came across an intersting qustion.
to paraphrase it asked whether or not buying clothes made in the third world helps the people of said countries or if we are taking advantage of them by buying cheaply made clothes.
The answer stated that it is actually a good thing because the alternative is much worse.
Here are some quotes:
"...in general buying cheap clothes from foreign factories actually helps the workers. True there are problems with facilities that use unsafe chemicals or lock the fire doors, but people in poor countries generally see factory jobs as better than many of the alternatives, such as peddling, farmwork, or day labor."
"...workers earn(ing) 15 cents for making a shirt that will sell for $15"
"I interviewed workers scavenging a dump in Indonesia, and I'll never forget the mother who told me that she dreamed that her children would someday work in what we'd call a sweatshop."
"But it's the poorest countries, where wages and working conditions are the worst, that most desperately need the jobs. And the most effective foreign aid is often to start a manufacturing industry in those poorest countries."
Let me make this clear Oprah did not say this herself but it did appear in a magazine named after her, which she endorses. And for the record she is the Founder and Editorial Director.
It just sounds weird to me because from what i know she is all about helping the less fortunate yet she would let stuff like this get
published in her magazine. just sounds to me like she is endorsing some terrible stuff.
Does anyone know if this is actually true? do sweatshops actually help the people of these poor countries? because to me it sounds like the industrial revolution where they used to make children work in factories for pennies a day and they worked like 14 hour days.
did oprah just tell me not to feel guilty about taking advantage of slave labour because its the best they can do? regardless of their financial situation shouldn't no one be subject to the conditions found in sweatshops?
Discuss.
Last edited by flip; 09-09-2007 at 04:33 AM.
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09-09-2007, 04:44 AM
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#2
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One of the Nine
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Slightly off topic, but how is it much different from what us north american folk did just 50 or 100 years ago? Worked on farms slanging manure for 14 hours a day for mere pennies.
Sure it's pretty crappy work for us lucky ones that live in a developed country, but this country was built on the backs of people that endured those types of conditions.
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09-09-2007, 04:52 AM
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#3
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Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sec 216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4X4
Slightly off topic, but how is it much different from what us north american folk did just 50 or 100 years ago? Worked on farms slanging manure for 14 hours a day for mere pennies.
Sure it's pretty crappy work for us lucky ones that live in a developed country, but this country was built on the backs of people that endured those types of conditions.
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that was why i didn't condemn her though. is this normal in your view, is this just how it goes for poor people?
because yeah i agree it is pretty crappy compared to our jobs but aren't we (and by we i mean industrialized nations) all about human rights and stuff?
shouldn't it not matter if its the best job available? shouldn't we be trying to help them avoid this kind of thing? i thought this is why we had foreign aid right?
are we just conceding that we are going to take advantage of those less fortunate than us?
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09-09-2007, 05:04 AM
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#4
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Franchise Player
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I saw a professor talking about this the other day on TV. Basically, the point is that compared to North America and Western Europe standards the working conditions and pay is deplorable. However, compared to the working conditions and pay in that country for most jobs the clothes sweatshop jobs do have significantly better conditions and significantly better pay. The professors argument is that every country goes through this period in their history as they build the economy. It's a stage of economic development.
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09-09-2007, 08:14 AM
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#5
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sunshine Coast
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It's gotten to the point that it's hard to find clothes not made in these sweatshops. How people can justify taking advantage of these people by saying it's a normal stage of economic development is sickening. It's just another example of the greed of big business that would only be too quick to throw us into the same situation if they could. I believe in a fair pay for a fair days work, not paying the least you can get away with.
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09-09-2007, 08:26 AM
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#6
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Posted the 6 millionth post!
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I don't think there was any malicious or hurtful things said in that magazine. The quib is all relative; there are far more worse conditions to work under in some of those countries, so factory work is a step-up for some people. And it's true - who can deny that? I think we might take a skewed approach because we are used to professional, modern-day working environments, but you have to look at the environment of where those factories are in the third world. Besides, this is the way supply and demand works, and how the economy operates.
The article is not offensive to me in any way.
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09-09-2007, 08:36 AM
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#7
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Calgary
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Another thing to consider is the cost of living in countries where sweat shops are run. Certainly, 15c/day probably isn't likely to give a person a head start, but then, neither is $7/hour in Canada. If you paid those workers $5/day, they'd be rich in no time.
That's not to say it's okay to pay them poor wages at all, and apparently, the Canadian and US governments are guilty of economic sabotage in order to ensure wages are kept at these low rates. It's to say that jobs like this are probably much akin to $7/hour jobs in Canada... the biggest difference is that those are the 'best' jobs that a person can get in say, Haiti, and it still keeps people at the poverty line.
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09-09-2007, 08:53 AM
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#8
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sunshine Coast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame
I don't think there was any malicious or hurtful things said in that magazine. The quib is all relative; there are far more worse conditions to work under in some of those countries, so factory work is a step-up for some people. And it's true - who can deny that? I think we might take a skewed approach because we are used to professional, modern-day working environments, but you have to look at the environment of where those factories are in the third world. Besides, this is the way supply and demand works, and how the economy operates.
The article is not offensive to me in any way.
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Not surprising coming from you. The law of supply and demand also sanctions slavery, pimping and addictive drug dealing.
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09-09-2007, 09:28 AM
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#9
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#1 Goaltender
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan
It's gotten to the point that it's hard to find clothes not made in these sweatshops. How people can justify taking advantage of these people by saying it's a normal stage of economic development is sickening. It's just another example of the greed of big business that would only be too quick to throw us into the same situation if they could. I believe in a fair pay for a fair days work, not paying the least you can get away with.
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And I believe in skipping through meadows full of daisys and rainbows.
What Vulcan says is true, you may not like it but it is true. In many areas these sweatshops are top tier unskilled work and the workers clearly prefer to be there than anywhere else.
If it is simply an issue of pay I don't think anyone here can judge so negatively without:
* comparing to their COST of living
* comparing to their alternatives
what is one person's slavery is another persons opportunity. And large 'sweatshops' are a step up for an awful economy looking for anyway to be productive. It sucks, but I don't know of any other way to practically improve the lifestyle of unskilled labourers in 3rd world countries. We can ship them bags of money, but that would be short term help, we can't wave a magic wand and make them all educated doctors ... so I guess I don't know what you are up in arms about.
So, you can be sladerous and condesending to people who don't agree with you, or you can post something intellegent and walk us through why or how you could construct 3rd world economies such that there is no demand for this type of labour.
And i'd also be curious about what pimping and drug dealing has to do with anything.
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09-09-2007, 09:33 AM
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#10
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#1 Goaltender
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I dont disagree with the amount they are paid....what I do disagree with is the working conditions and the age of the workers. 8 year old kids required to work 12 hours a day 6 days a week. Most of the time given 30 min break and that is it. No bathroom breaks. If they have to go to the bathroom, they must pee themselves. If they dont make their quota...they get beat. This is unacceptable and anyone who says it is just part of normal economic reform is....well I have no words for it.
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09-09-2007, 10:19 AM
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#11
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#1 Goaltender
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flames in 07
And I believe in skipping through meadows full of daisys and rainbows.
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As do I.
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In many areas these sweatshops are top tier unskilled work and the workers clearly prefer to be there than anywhere else.
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The slaves stayed with their masters. Doesn't mean slavery was right.
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If it is simply an issue of pay I don't think anyone here can judge so negatively without:
* comparing to their COST of living
* comparing to their alternatives
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How about QUALITY of living as well?
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what is one person's slavery is another persons opportunity. And large 'sweatshops' are a step up for an awful economy looking for anyway to be productive. It sucks, but I don't know of any other way to practically improve the lifestyle of unskilled labourers in 3rd world countries. We can ship them bags of money, but that would be short term help, we can't wave a magic wand and make them all educated doctors ... so I guess I don't know what you are up in arms about.
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It's not about shipping them bags of free money. It's about paying these people a wage that allows them to send their children to school, feed their families and build a future.
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...construct 3rd world economies such that there is no demand for this type of labour.
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Again, that is not what this is about. It's about ensuring that those that make Nikes make more than 1% of the retail price so that their kids DO have the opportunity to become doctors.
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And i'd also be curious about what pimping and drug dealing has to do with anything.
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That supply/demand capitalism cannot be the only moral yardstick.
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I found these wonderful shoes made out of 100% recycled materials about a decade ago. But I found that they were being made in China, so I wrote to the company stating that I couldn't understand why they were making their shoes in a country with such a poor human rights record. They responded saying that if they made their products in the U.S., Canada or any other developed country it would mean bumping their price for shoes from $80 to $110. At $110 they wouldn't be able to compete with other manufacturers that were using sweatshop labour.
In other words, in a system that is all about maximizing profit or die, you can't afford to be an ethical company.
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09-09-2007, 10:30 AM
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#12
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Fearmongerer
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wondering when # became hashtag and not a number sign.
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Quote:
The slaves stayed with their masters. Doesn't mean slavery was right.
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These people aren't being forced to work there. They CHOOSE to work there (at least in the majority of cases) so the whole "slavery" thing is a BS argument.
I too wish everyone could have everything they ever need without anyone having experienced poverty and/or inequality with everyone else in the world. That though is nothing more than a fantasy and there is a real world to actually deal with.
If Nike ( seemingly the poster child for this debate) stops using the same way of doing business as others do...they die as a business. Period. Some company from country X will follow them right into the factory they vacate and will proceed to take the Nike portion of the market.
So now you have even more people unemployed but this time its at "home", which puts a bigger strain on the economy here. Its a dog eat dog world, like it or not, and if you dont keep up with the Joneses....you get left looking through their garbage cans for scraps.
Again, it stinks, but its the way it is and unless EVERY company in the ENTIRE world from ALL countries ALL stop usuing these prctices at the exact same point in time.....it will always be that way.
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09-09-2007, 10:39 AM
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#13
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Van City - Main St.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4X4
Slightly off topic, but how is it much different from what us north american folk did just 50 or 100 years ago? Worked on farms slanging manure for 14 hours a day for mere pennies.
Sure it's pretty crappy work for us lucky ones that live in a developed country, but this country was built on the backs of people that endured those types of conditions.
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I think the difference is that the modern day sweatshop labour isn't being done for the benefit of their own country and people.
NA industrial revolution set up companies and industries in NA for NA people. The sweatshops only use the labour from those countries without setting up any long term economical gains for the locals.
Are sweatshops actually gonna help a 3rd world country in the long term?
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09-09-2007, 10:47 AM
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#14
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Fearmongerer
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wondering when # became hashtag and not a number sign.
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Quote:
NA industrial revolution set up companies and industries in NA for NA people. The sweatshops only use the labour from those countries without setting up any long term economical gains for the locals.
Are sweatshops actually gonna help a 3rd world country in the long term?
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Who set up NA with long term economical gains for the locals?
Oh yeah....they did it themselves. No relying on some other companies/countries to do it for them.
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Are sweatshops actually gonna help a 3rd world country in the long term?
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In a word...maybe.
At least these folks now see the possibilities of what "can" happen within the free market world. They already make more money than they did by working for the factories than they once used to. So some one/government may use the model of those companies and go it on their own. Much like the NA industrial revolution began, it can as well in 3rd world countries with proper government/political support. It will not be easy obviously, and it may not happen at all, but at least they have something to emulate whereas that did not exist 50 years ago.
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09-09-2007, 10:59 AM
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#15
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Van City - Main St.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by transplant99
Who set up NA with long term economical gains for the locals?
Oh yeah....they did it themselves. No relying on some other companies/countries to do it for them.
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Exactly my point and exactly why these sweatshops will not have the same effect.
Those countries need to start operating every aspect of the business from within and not just being used by foreignors for cheap labour.
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09-09-2007, 11:04 AM
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#16
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#1 Goaltender
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate
As do I.
The slaves stayed with their masters. Doesn't mean slavery was right.
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what does slavery have to do with anything? Every single worker has a choice right. It's disingenuous to try and manufacture a situation that doesn't exist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate
How about QUALITY of living as well?
It's not about shipping them bags of free money. It's about paying these people a wage that allows them to send their children to school, feed their families and build a future.
Again, that is not what this is about. It's about ensuring that those that make Nikes make more than 1% of the retail price so that their kids DO have the opportunity to become doctors.
That supply/demand capitalism cannot be the only moral yardstick.
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Look it's not daisys and rainbows. But a country cannot legislate higher pay or less hours becuase the work will then go to a different country. Simple as that, it's not very nice, but it is real life. And for those workers in those shops, it is their best options. It's not the best thing to happen to humanity, but apparently it is the best opportunity for each of those workers. Simple as that.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate
I found these wonderful shoes made out of 100% recycled materials about a decade ago. But I found that they were being made in China, so I wrote to the company stating that I couldn't understand why they were making their shoes in a country with such a poor human rights record. They responded saying that if they made their products in the U.S., Canada or any other developed country it would mean bumping their price for shoes from $80 to $110. At $110 they wouldn't be able to compete with other manufacturers that were using sweatshop labour.
In other words, in a system that is all about maximizing profit or die, you can't afford to be an ethical company.
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and customers won't pay the higher price and allow the company to be your definition of ethical.
It's lazy and naive to simply blame the producer. The customers demand a lower price above all else, what else can the producer do? it's like people here saying in one breath they hate oil companies for for the business they are in, and they hate oil companies because gasoline is so expensive ... naive and lazy.
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09-09-2007, 11:04 AM
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#17
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One of the Nine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan
It's gotten to the point that it's hard to find clothes not made in these sweatshops. How people can justify taking advantage of these people by saying it's a normal stage of economic development is sickening. It's just another example of the greed of big business that would only be too quick to throw us into the same situation if they could. I believe in a fair pay for a fair days work, not paying the least you can get away with.
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I hope you can tell me honestly that you don't own anything made in china or india. Or for that matter, pretty much all of asia, save japan. And I think mexico too.
Go check the tags in your tightie whities and your jeans and your shirts. Any of them made in asia? Then you're just as "sickening" as the rest of us.
Hey, anyone have a flames jersey handy? What's the tag say?
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09-09-2007, 11:38 AM
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#18
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Posted the 6 millionth post!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan
Not surprising coming from you. The law of supply and demand also sanctions slavery, pimping and addictive drug dealing.
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These things would be prevalent under any system of governance or any model of economics. I can't deny those things exist; they certainly do. But those things also exist in Western society as well.
Hypothetically speaking, would these same people in factories be better off or worse off if these jobs didn't exist for them? I think it's only a matter of time before standards improve; a good model to look at is the Asian Tiger countries who are on the verge of first-world status, but whom also had to have these jobs exist before sanctions, rules, and employment standards developed.
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09-09-2007, 11:59 AM
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#19
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver
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I'm not surprised. According to Oprah (who also endorses "The Secret"), people in poor countries attract their own misfortunes anyway.
In theory, I agree that factory jobs are good for helping 3rd world countries, but the poor treatment of the employees, indentured labour, and the low wages are not not. There is a difference between a sweat shop and a normal factory.
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"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
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09-09-2007, 12:02 PM
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#20
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#1 Goaltender
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction
I'm not surprised. According to Oprah (who also endorses "The Secret"), people in poor countries attract their own misfortunes anyway.
In theory, I agree that factory jobs are good for helping 3rd world countries, but the poor treatment of the employees, indentured labour, and the low wages are not not. There is a difference between a sweat shop and a normal factory.
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Proof please.
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