2016-17 Toronto Raptors and General NBA Thread

[Love]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

As far as Golden State "ruining basketball", well....they're ruining the NBA as far as a competitive product that's worth watching, but they play exceptional basketball, far nicer to watch than any team LeBron has ever been on. So no, they are not ruining basketball and in fact basketball would be much better if every team played like the Warriors.

I'm sure it is fun watching a glorified all-star team every night. 4 HOF'ers with guys like Iguodala and Livingston coming off the bench is ridiculous. Crazy how Lebron was a (+) differential player against them and when he'd rest for a minute or two, the Warriors would go on a 12-0, and it happened like every time he sat. He really is the greatest player of all time and it makes me sad to realize that he's getting older :((. Love was pretty terrible outside of that one miraculous shooting performance. PG will be able to carry the load of the offense for at least a couple of minutes next season and be able to score the basketball while Lebron sits, which is all he needs. They desperately need to upgrade their backup PG too as Deron Williams is ####ing awful. That old piece of #### needs to retire. He was getting exposed on both ends of the floor, every single game. They bring in a competent backup 1 guard like Rondo who's an elite defender and is still a great player who can pass the rock as well as any in the league as well as PG, I think they've definitely improved their team compared to this year.

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

o no, they are not ruining basketball and in fact basketball would be much better if every team played like the Warriors.

They built an unbeatable team to deal with Lebron dude lol. Sounds like you have an irrational hated for Lebron (as most fans of the eastern conference do, because he made your franchise his son). Lebron ran the east on the back of his greatness. The weasel Durant and Curry had to scheme together to build the greatest team of all time to guarantee a ring. Really sad. Durant even admitted to be texting and talking with Green throughout the entire season 2 years ago, and was even in their locker room after OKC lost to GS. What a #####. I barely want to shake my opponents' hand if we lost to them in rec ball, let alone be in their locker room celebrating with the team that just eliminated MY franchise from the conference finals. Can't wait till Lebron takes these dudes out again. Curry will never win a FMVP because he's a mental midget.

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Their bench is still trash

Yup. Their bench arguably lost Lebron the series. They couldn't do anything. Here's hoping Billups can make some changes. Their bench is way too old, without having anybody that specializes at anything on it. They need to find their own Iguodala really badly.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Love

I'm sure it is fun watching a glorified all-star team every night. 4 HOF'ers with guys like Iguodala and Livingston coming off the bench is ridiculous.

You're actually putting Klay, Draymond and Steph in the HOF already? Klay is never getting in, Draymond possibly, Steph probably, but all still need a few more top quality years to be in the conversation. Durant is the only surefire HOFer right now. But that still has nothing to do with their brand of basketball, basically taking what the Spurs started to the logical conclusion of being extremely dominant from the three point line, making them essentially unguardable as a team. LeBron has played with two big threes, playing a generally ugly brand of basketball that mostly relies on LeBron being LeBron, dribble drive to draw defenders, and iso ball. But exceptionally passing and ball movement, like the Warriors? Not so much.

Crazy how Lebron was a (+) differential player against them and when he'd rest for a minute or two, the Warriors would go on a 12-0, and it happened like every time he sat. He really is the greatest player of all time and it makes me sad to realize that he's getting older :((. Love was pretty terrible outside of that one miraculous shooting performance. PG will be able to carry the load of the offense for at least a couple of minutes next season and be able to score the basketball while Lebron sits, which is all he needs. They desperately need to upgrade their backup PG too as Deron Williams is ####ing awful. That old piece of #### needs to retire. He was getting exposed on both ends of the floor, every single game. They bring in a competent backup 1 guard like Rondo who's an elite defender and is still a great player who can pass the rock as well as any in the league as well as PG, I think they've definitely improved their team compared to this year.

LeBron is the GM and President of Basketball Ops, so yeah, blame him for putting together such a piece of crap roster. The luxury repeater means unless some big stars are willing to take massive pay cuts, they aren't getting much better roster wise (and if said stars are willing to take pay cuts, why not bandwagon the Warriors to a ring?). The Warriors meanwhile were only able to sign Durant from being exceptionally well managed as an organization, drafting and developing players. They are in such a strong position they could (and I think should) trade Klay this offseason.

And George doesn't change much really. They still lose in five, maybe they get to six with George but I doubt it. As has been already discussed in this thread, outside three point FG%, DeRozan has better across the board offensive numbers. George is overrated as a star, if they used Kevin Love more like Minnesota, he'd unquestionably be a better fit.

They built an unbeatable team to deal with Lebron dude lol. Sounds like you have an irrational hated for Lebron (as most fans of the eastern conference do, because he made your franchise his son). Lebron ran the east on the back of his greatness. The weasel Durant and Curry had to scheme together to build the greatest team of all time to guarantee a ring. Really sad. Durant even admitted to be texting and talking with Green throughout the entire season 2 years ago, and was even in their locker room after OKC lost to GS. What a #####. I barely want to shake my opponents' hand if we lost to them in rec ball, let alone be in their locker room celebrating with the team that just eliminated MY franchise from the conference finals. Can't wait till Lebron takes these dudes out again. Curry will never win a FMVP because he's a mental midget.

True story: the Warriors would have won last year if Draymond could stop kicking people in the nuts. They were already as close to unbeatable as it gets last year. As if the Cavs had the space to add Kawhi for instance, you'd somehow say no? The Warriors positioned themselves to get Durant through exceptional management, it's not like they signed him for the MLE. LeBron meanwhile has been on exceptionally mismanaged teams his entire career (great player, terrible GM clearly). Maybe he needs to opt out and go to San Antonio next year and finally experience an elite organization (assuming he lets them run it themselves). But that means going out West, so probably not. He should though, be great to see.

As far as "irrational hatred of LeBron", other than defending him in this thread not even 100 posts ago (trashing Kobe to do so) and saying he's in the top 10 all-time, sure I guess? I think if anyone's hatred here is irrational it'd be yours of the Warriors. Dislike that the NBA is predictable (I mean the Warriors are 2/3 favorites next year which is basically unheard of), but the Warriors aren't the New Jersey Devils winning titles with the ugliest of styles. It's a joy to watch as a fan of basketball, it's just boring from a competitive standpoint.

[Jason14h]

You're actually putting Klay, Draymond and Steph in the HOF already? Klay is never getting in, Draymond possibly, Steph probably, but all still need a few more top quality years to be in the conversation. Durant is the only surefire HOFer right now.

Curry retires tomorrow and he is in the HOF. 2 MVPs, only ever unanimous winner, 2 championships, most 3's in a season ever, most 3's in playoff history. And you don't think he is a sure fire? He's more surefire then Durant right now.

[Love]

I liked your points SCD. Nice chatting with you.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Love

I liked your points SCD. Nice chatting with you.

What is this hippie ####?! You're supposed to freak out.

[Love]

Originally Posted by nik-

What is this hippie ####?! You're supposed to freak out.

lmaoo we're spinning our wheels at this point. im sure he/she understands my position on this topic

edit: actually I didn't read his post the first time. you can thank yourself for getting me to look back at it and respond with that book of a post below

[Love]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

1) True story: the Warriors would have won last year if Draymond could stop kicking people in the nuts. They were already as close to unbeatable as it gets last year.

2) As if the Cavs had the space to add Kawhi for instance, you'd somehow say no?

3) The Warriors positioned themselves to get Durant through exceptional management, it's not like they signed him for the MLE. LeBron meanwhile has been on exceptionally mismanaged teams his entire career (great player, terrible GM clearly). Maybe he needs to opt out and go to San Antonio next year and finally experience an elite organization (assuming he lets them run it themselves). But that means going out West, so probably not. He should though, be great to see.

Wait what??? And why is that?

Here's another "True story": The Cavs should have won in 2015 and the only reason they didn't is because Lebron lost his starting powerfoward and pointguard for the entire series. I mean they won two ####ing games with Matthew Delavadova starting at the one. Why are we making excuses for one team and not for the other? Draymond broke the rules and got suspended. If we think about it in actuality, that Golden State core (Klay/Steph/Dray/Igua) shouldn't have one ring. They lucked out faced all injured teams in 2015, they get embarrassed as a 73 win team with a monumental type choke in 2016. And then they had to rig the league by acquiring a top 2 player in the world to eliminate OKC and Cleveland this season. That same OKC team that had a 3-1 lead over them in the previous playoffs and probably would have beat them this year and given the Cavs a run for their money with the true Lebron vs Kevin Durant matchup that the fans deserved to see after 2012. Now that would have been epic. Lebron and Durant. Kyrie and Westbrook. Love. Adams. AR Smith. Ibaka.

2) For the sake of basketball? I would... if this was 2 years ago. How fun is it to run through teams night in and night out. I mean we've gotten to a point in basketball where the star point guard on the championship winning team was relaxing with a towel over his head carefree in ####ing NBA finals in the middle of the game. The same type of people that enjoy that are the ones that play FIFA or NHL and beat the computer on easy mode over and over again 11-0... To me (and most), we enjoy the challenge. Triumphing in battle is the main reason why competition exists in all walks of life, from sports to video games, but I mean if that's your cup of tea, who am I to judge?

But back to your question, I mean yeah... of course I take Kiwi on my team. We;ve gotten to the point in this league where that kind of fantasized unrealistic hypothetical is probably the only chance we'd get to see the defending champions have to work for the 2018 championship. Thanks Kevin Durant!

3) Sir, I wouldn't call that "exceptional management". Yes, the Warriors are the team to emulate for how they've accumulated their talent, they did things exceptionally. I respect them for drafting and developing Draymond, Klay and Steph from non top 5 picks, that is almost unheard of in this day & age in the NBA. At the same time though, they have established NBA players (David West, Javale McGee, Andre Iguodala, Andy Varajao, Shaun Livingston) taking well below what they could receive on the open market to stack onto an already loaded team. Those first two guys (West/Javale) taking essentially the league minimum.

You can say that the Warriors have this luxury through how they've built this team and I would agree. They drafted and formulated a winning young nucleus that other players in the league looked at and said 'man, I would love to play there'. For that they get an A+. Getting to then sign those valuable and contributing vets way below their market value is a prestige that only they can enjoy. Great management skills didn't turn David West (a starter on a lot of teams in the league) into a ringchaser. Durant said he's willing to take a paycut to keep that team together. Sounds like he'd prefer a guaranteed championship over having to fight for it. Not all men are made the same.

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

1) As far as "irrational hatred of LeBron", other than defending him in this thread not even 100 posts ago (trashing Kobe to do so) and saying he's in the top 10 all-time, sure I guess? I think if anyone's hatred here is irrational it'd be yours of the Warriors.

2) Dislike that the NBA is predictable (I mean the Warriors are 2/3 favorites next year which is basically unheard of), but the Warriors aren't the New Jersey Devils winning titles with the ugliest of styles. It's a joy to watch as a fan of basketball, it's just boring from a competitive standpoint.

1) Trashing Kobe is posting facts? I mean if you consider the statistical breakdown of the two players careers as "trashing", then doesn't that speak for itself? I mean the stats clearly did. Kobe is a great, great scorer, but there's more to the game than that. 1MVP man. Without Shaq Kobe wouldn't be doing this:



...

He'd be doing this:




Also, I'm not sure what I wrote specifically about Kobe, but I remember the general gist of my post. I still think he's a borderline top 10 player oat and not even close to the same breath as Lebron and MJ who are on their own island fighting for #1 & #2

Give me: Bron Bron / Jordan / Wilt / Bird / Magic / Kareem / Shaq / Timmy D and Hakeem over him. That's 9. And you could argue he's fighting for 10 with guys like Oscar and Moses Malone. Just my opinion, tell me what you disagree with.

2) Man, like I said, of course they're a joy to watch. They're essentially the NBA West's allstar team. The 2014/2015/2016 Warriors were also extremely fun to watch, and the 2016 finals were arguably one of the best. ever. They were still shocking the league on both ends of the court with their never-before-seen ball movement, cutting and screening. They were still exploding for 3's at a unseen rate ever in this league. They had the back to back MVP, doing MVP stuff caliber stuff every night. We had moments like Klay going for 40 against OKC to fight to keep Golden State alive in the WCF. Curry also had one of his most memorable moments against the Blazers in the playoffs:




So don't try and tell me that we can't enjoy the Warriors style of play ALONG with watching competitive basketball because 2016 would look you dead in your eyes and accuse you of being a liar. Anyways, all of that is gone now. Adding Kevin Durant made it overboard. Yes that team is still fun to watch but it's just gotten to a point where there is not a single team in the league even close enough to make them sweat (except for Lebron who did all he could in a historical finals performance and still lost in a relatively easy 5).

Like I said man, video games --> easy mode. If that's what you enjoy, do you, but me, I hate it

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Love

tl;dr

We could go back and forth on this forever, so let me go ahead and end it now; You don't care even slightly about competitive balance. If you did, you'd be on here complaining that the Eastern Conference has had one team in the Finals the last 7 years, the team of LeBron plus two other stars. But are you complaining about it? Of course not. The Eastern Conference has been far, far, faaaaar more boring than the Western Conference the last 7 years. I didn't see you in here complaining when the Cavs were skating through the East on cruise control this year. Wonder why.

More to the point, would you really be on here complaining right now if LeBron were on the Warriors and Durant on the Cavs? Absolutely not, and please don't insult everyone's intelligence here by saying otherwise. You think LeBron is the greatest ever, I seriously doubt you'd have a problem with him being on a team that's looking at possibly winning 4-5 rings in a row, since if he passed Mike in rings you'd use that as your irrefutable proof he's better. And that's the real reason you hate the Durant move, unless something very unexpected happens that move likely ended LeBron's championship window.

[Da_Chief]

Phil Jackson out in New York and they want Masai to replace him. Let's see how much money they throw at him.

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

Phil Jackson out in New York and they want Masai to replace him. Let's see how much money they throw at him.

I would take the Knicks job if it was offered to me and I had his resume. One of the premier clubs in the NBA despite no recent success. The challenge to bring them back to respectability would be hard to turn down. Plus the prestige and the paycheque on top of that.

[Love]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

1) So let me go ahead and end it now; You don't care even slightly about competitive balance. If you did, you'd be on here complaining that the Eastern Conference has had one team in the Finals the last 7 years, the team of LeBron plus two other stars. But are you complaining about it? Of course not. The Eastern Conference has been far, far, faaaaar more boring than the Western Conference the last 7 years.

2) I didn't see you in here complaining when the Cavs were skating through the East on cruise control this year. Wonder why.

1) Like I've said before, all Lebrons greatness, those teams do what they do through him, and only him. Those two other stars in Love and Kyrie are 0-11 when Lebron hasn't played during the current iteration Cavaliers. Those two other stars in Bosh and Wade spiraled from top of the conference, to mediocrity upon Lebron leaving. He could join any team and they'd be perennial finals contenders. He could join the Raptors and turn Lowry and Derozan into winners. He could join the Hornets and turn Kemba, Batum and Marvin Williams into an unbeatable superpower. That's how good he is. Blaming him for simply being better than anyone else is a bit bewildering. Also about the boring thing, I'd disagree. Have seen many great Cleveland/Boston, Miami/Boston & Miami/Indiana series' over the years.

2) Of course you didn't, considering I only found this thread a few weeks ago during the midst of the finals.

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

More to the point, would you really be on here complaining right now if LeBron were on the Warriors and Durant on the Cavs? Absolutely not

Please don't put words in my mouth or fabricate my thoughts

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

You think LeBron is the greatest ever

Yessir chief

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

I seriously doubt you'd have a problem with him being on a team that's looking at possibly winning 4-5 rings in a row, since if he passed Mike in rings you'd use that as your irrefutable proof he's better.

I mean I could care less about the whole 'ringzzzz' culture that is predominantly argued amongst casual basketball fans. Jerry West is 1-8 in the NBA finals and he's the NBA's ####ing logo lol. My "irrefutable proof" is founded on deeper arguments than just finals records, I mean Jordan couldn't even get out of the first round until the Bad Boy Pistons got old and he teamed up with Pippen. We've seen how dependent Lebron's teams are on him considering how the whole teams fall apart when he leaves, that wasn't the case with Jordan, his Bulls actually won more games following his 'first retirement' (league ban). I see Jordan as the enhanced Kobe, a killer scorer that was unbelievably clutch. I see Lebron as a freak of nature athlete that's been in probably been put in worst situation to succeed of any star ever, and yet has still been triumphant.

I think history has kind of put revision on how Jordan's career went, I mean the guy only made the finals 6 times in 15 seasons, so it's not like he was unbeatable like that finals record stat tries to make it seem. He sure did a lot of losing in his career.

Got swept twice in the playoffs to Larry Bird's Celtics
Frustrated three years in a row against the Pistons
Embarrassed by Magic in the Finals and had to get Pippen to guard him instead

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

And that's the real reason you hate the Durant move, unless something very unexpected happens that move likely ended LeBron's championship window.

It ended the entire leagues "championship window" lol, they built an unstoppable team. It would have ended Jordan's and Kobe's too. They're just lucky they played in an era where trying to compete was the thing to do.

[Drake]

2 ball dominant point guards? Has diaster written all over it.

@WojVerticalNBA:

After Chris Paul agreed to opt-in on contract, Clippers are trading All-Star guard to the Houston Rockets, league sources tell @TheVertical

Sources: After Paul informed Clippers he'd sign w/ HOU in FA, teams agreed to deal sending Beverley, Decker, Williams and 2018 FRP for Paul. https://t.co/9Lk9FPEPbu

[Love]

Originally Posted by Drake

2 ball dominant point guards? Has diaster written all over it.

@WojVerticalNBA:

Are they doing this so CP3 can re-sign and obtain the max?

Why not just sign there as a FA and take slightly below the max and still have skilled teammates and assets that your team can use to build around you?

[Senator Clay Davis]

Terrible trade for the Rockets. Doesn't even get them past the Spurs, let alone the Warriors. Should be moving Harden now for max assets, not diving headfirst into mediocrity

[Love]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Terrible trade for the Rockets. Doesn't even get them past the Spurs, let alone the Warriors. Should be moving Harden now for max assets, not diving headfirst into mediocrity

Clips were going to lose CP3 for free anyways so to get a first round pick on top of some solid role players is quite the haul

[Cheese]

Knicks part ways with Jackson; eyeing Ujiri

The New York Knicks have parted ways with president of basketball operations Phil Jackson and according to The Vertical's Adrian Wojnarowski, the team is targeting Raptors president Masai Ujiri to replace him.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Terrible trade for the Rockets. Doesn't even get them past the Spurs, let alone the Warriors. Should be moving Harden now for max assets, not diving headfirst into mediocrity

Disagree. You don't take a 55 win team with a 27 year old superstar and blow it up, unless you believe every team in the league should just lie down for the Warriors.

Morey is a swing for the fences GM and no doubt will be pursuing George as well. This gives Rockets a couple of years to take a run at this and they gave up little of consequence. Harden was a huge disappointment in the playoffs biggest games for sure, but you play the cards you're dealt as best you can.

Harden also needs to handle the ball a little less. He had an amazing season but they were predictable in crunch time.

As a fan of the team, I'm excited to see what they can do next year.

[Love]

looks like the rockets aren't done

https://twitter.com/espn_macmahon/st...23618394374144

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Disagree. You don't take a 55 win team with a 27 year old superstar and blow it up, unless you believe every team in the league should just lie down for the Warriors.

Morey is a swing for the fences GM and no doubt will be pursuing George as well. This gives Rockets a couple of years to take a run at this and they gave up little of consequence. Harden was a huge disappointment in the playoffs biggest games for sure, but you play the cards you're dealt as best you can.

Harden also needs to handle the ball a little less. He had an amazing season but they were predictable in crunch time.

As a fan of the team, I'm excited to see what they can do next year.

Reminder: They lost by 40, at home, in a must win situation, against a team missing one of the top 3 players in the league. This is a team that barely plays any defense, the only way you can beat the Warriors. Getting George is not possible, everyone else can offer more and better assets. The Rockets just gave up all their tradeable assets in this trade. Best case is they can get Milsap, but even then that's getting in luxury tax hell, and that team with Milsap still has less than a 1% chance of beating the Warriors. There's the hope they maybe get Carmelo if he gets bought out, but I suspect part of the reason the Zen Master was shown the door was he intended to do that. Dolan won't let that happen now.

I think best case scenario for the Rockets is getting swept by the Warriors in the WCF. Worst case scenario is Paul and Harden don't mesh, and you're on the hook for $40 million a season to a player in decline over five more years, with a team stuck going nowhere. I don't think every team should lie down...just every team but the Spurs and Cavs (to become the Sixers next year). Everyone else should develop their young guys and wait for the post-Warriors world. But when your chances of winning it all hinge on Durant or Curry getting seriously hurt, it's a pretty poor strategy to win a title. Trading Harden now would have allowed them to stack up on assets for the post-Warriors world. Now they'll be lucky to not be crippled going into that world since they are now all in and will likely waste even more assets in a fruitless effort to beat the Warriors.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Reminder: They lost by 40, at home, in a must win situation, against a team missing one of the top 3 players in the league. This is a team that barely plays any defense, the only way you can beat the Warriors. Getting George is not possible, everyone else can offer more and better assets. The Rockets just gave up all their tradeable assets in this trade. Best case is they can get Milsap, but even then that's getting in luxury tax hell, and that team with Milsap still has less than a 1% chance of beating the Warriors. There's the hope they maybe get Carmelo if he gets bought out, but I suspect part of the reason the Zen Master was shown the door was he intended to do that. Dolan won't let that happen now.

I think best case scenario for the Rockets is getting swept by the Warriors in the WCF. Worst case scenario is Paul and Harden don't mesh, and you're on the hook for $40 million a season to a player in decline over five more years, with a team stuck going nowhere. I don't think every team should lie down...just every team but the Spurs and Cavs (to become the Sixers next year). Everyone else should develop their young guys and wait for the post-Warriors world. But when your chances of winning it all hinge on Durant or Curry getting seriously hurt, it's a pretty poor strategy to win a title. Trading Harden now would have allowed them to stack up on assets for the post-Warriors world. Now they'll be lucky to not be crippled going into that world since they are now all in and will likely waste even more assets in a fruitless effort to beat the Warriors.

You don't burn a 55 win, young team to the ground. The name of the game is competing to win and there is no way the Rockets were going to start tanking. That's not a realistic suggestion. Yeah they had a horrible playoff loss. So now they're doing their best to shore up the team and take some pressure off Harden who clearly was awful in game 6, but more importantly end of game 5. I won't be surprised at all to see them add George or Carmelo. Morey is not exactly afraid to make moves. Beating the Warriors is of course a long shot but tanking gets you no closer and yields no benefit.