05-17-2017, 02:03 PM
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#101
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Somewhere down the crazy river.
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Is at grade even an option in Van? There is really no room to run it at grade? Ground level is already densely packed with no good routes along city streets.
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05-17-2017, 02:06 PM
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#102
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Income Tax Central
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delgar
The West LRT expansion was hugely off budget. This one will be too. It doesn't matter what it "should" cost or how close the city "should" be as the project starts, the fact is, they're going to go way over budget. Anyone suggesting otherwise hasn't watched the history of public projects in Calgary.
Here's one article, about the West LRT.
http://news.nationalpost.com/full-co...ning-to-others
EDIT: And GGG, "Plus/Minus 30%" or "10%"? That's ridiculous. There is no possible way they come under budget. Its always more.
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Wait though....what? I thought the whole point of deficit spending during an economic downturn was to get a discount on labour and materials?
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05-17-2017, 02:12 PM
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#103
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Voted for Kodos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormius
Is at grade even an option in Van? There is really no room to run it at grade? Ground level is already densely packed with no good routes along city streets.
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Vancouver has an automated system, and is powered by third rail. Either of those is incompatible with any kind of level crossing.
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05-17-2017, 02:18 PM
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#104
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Voted for Kodos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames
All of them.
In Vancouver it's not even a discussion about which roads to intersect or not. It's all above grade, no question, and no one regrets spending the extra money to have it grade separated.
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In Vancouver, they don't have a choice about grade separation. As per above, they can't even if they wanted to. There's lots of good things about Vancouver's system, but having to grade separate any crossing even where one might not be needed isn't one of them.
$300 million + would be much better spent elsewhere. Those 5 or 6 level crossings will not bother anyone.
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05-17-2017, 05:21 PM
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#105
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames
All of them.
In Vancouver it's not even a discussion about which roads to intersect or not. It's all above grade, no question, and no one regrets spending the extra money to have it grade separated.
If this expansion is intended to increase ridership, then it makes sense to do it right the first time.
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No if the expansion is intended to increase ridership you lay as much track as possible at the lowest possible cost.
Calgary has the highest transit ridership of a city of its size because of two decisions. Build rail as cheaply as possible and deal with the consequences and secondly cap the amount of parking downtown.
Just compare Edmonton's system and Calgary's
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05-17-2017, 06:16 PM
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#106
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Calgary, AB
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Some of the cities I've been to that have at-grade light rail systems...
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Last edited by getbak; 05-17-2017 at 07:43 PM.
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05-17-2017, 06:53 PM
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#107
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames
All of them.
In Vancouver it's not even a discussion about which roads to intersect or not. It's all above grade, no question, and no one regrets spending the extra money to have it grade separated.
If this expansion is intended to increase ridership, then it makes sense to do it right the first time.
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Wait, do C-trains stop at level crossings? How does it affect ridership? It just pisses off drivers.
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05-17-2017, 07:28 PM
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#108
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by getbak
Some of the cities I've been to that have at-grade light rail systems...
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And Rome, and Nice, and Berlin...
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05-17-2017, 09:17 PM
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#109
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Franchise Player
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They will have to pry the transit ticket from my cold dead hands before I ride a c-train line with at grade crossings.....
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05-18-2017, 09:12 AM
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#110
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by getbak
Some of the cities I've been to that have at-grade light rail systems...
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Are you arguing we should build 100% of the c-train at grade? Works really well in the NE doesn't it.
By the way, Munich has a very robust underground subway system (over 100 km of track). I'm pretty sure Boston is subway also.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzz
And Rome, and Nice, and Berlin...
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Berlin also has a huge subway system. They have tram service in some parts of the city. I've never been to Rome, but a quick wiki shows that they use a subway also. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome_Metro
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05-18-2017, 09:21 AM
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#111
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First Line Centre
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Calgary
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We're arguing that at-grade light rail isn't the crazy idea you think it is.
Having several at-grade crossings in industrial areas is totally fine and an efficient use of tax dollars.
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05-18-2017, 09:23 AM
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#112
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Franchise Player
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And our system will have both as well. The point is, just becuase it isn't grade separated, doesn't mean it is horrible, or that other cities don't do it as well.
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05-18-2017, 10:36 AM
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#113
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First Line Centre
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames
Are you arguing we should build 100% of the c-train at grade? Works really well in the NE doesn't it.
By the way, Munich has a very robust underground subway system (over 100 km of track). I'm pretty sure Boston is subway also.
Berlin also has a huge subway system. They have tram service in some parts of the city. I've never been to Rome, but a quick wiki shows that they use a subway also. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome_Metro
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Also, if people paid attention at crossings we wouldn't have this conversation. I live in the NE right near Whitehorn ctrain station and I love the new crossing more than the damn bridge! I always missed a train because I had to walk an extra half km to get on to the platform.
I agree with the city that at-grade transit is cheaper and is worth cutting the cost. I foresee more avoidable deaths at train crossings but I am fine with this. Long live the humans that actually pay attention to the flashing lights and bells that go off like crazy to warn pedestrians.
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05-18-2017, 10:54 AM
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#114
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Scoring Winger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Since1984
I agree with the city that at-grade transit is cheaper and is worth cutting the cost. I foresee more avoidable deaths at train crossings but I am fine with this. Long live the humans that actually pay attention to the flashing lights and bells that go off like crazy to warn pedestrians.
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Also long live those poor train drivers that hit the Darwin award winners, they get to live their lives in psychological pain because we cheaped out on designing against stupid.
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05-18-2017, 11:14 AM
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#115
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwslam
Also long live those poor train drivers that hit the Darwin award winners, they get to live their lives in psychological pain because we cheaped out on designing against stupid.
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Good excuse for robo-trains! Conscience free Darwin mobile.
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05-18-2017, 12:28 PM
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#116
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Somewhere down the crazy river.
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Trap doors are the only solution. As soon as the train approaches an intersection, a trap door underneath opens up and the jaywalker lands safely below, where the other trapped jaywalkers are held.
I think the idea of timing the trains so that ones travelling towards each other are spaced enough apart at intersections that visibility is more obvious would be good. It seems like a lot of these are people just assuming there is no other train when they walk out from behind the train nearest them. I don't know is that can even be done though with the number of the trains in service at any one time, like set it up so that no train crosses another within 1 minute of each other at an intersection. Is that even feasible?
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05-18-2017, 12:31 PM
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#117
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwslam
Also long live those poor train drivers that hit the Darwin award winners, they get to live their lives in psychological pain because we cheaped out on designing against stupid.
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300 million to save 1 life per year is a bad investment. At 5% return that is 15 million per life saved. Even if we consider the drivers life completely ruined that's 7.5 million per life saved.
You can save more lives on other projects with that money.
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05-19-2017, 08:08 AM
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#118
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First Line Centre
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames
All of them.
In Vancouver it's not even a discussion about which roads to intersect or not. It's all above grade, no question, and no one regrets spending the extra money to have it grade separated.
If this expansion is intended to increase ridership, then it makes sense to do it right the first time.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames
Are you arguing we should build 100% of the c-train at grade? Works really well in the NE doesn't it.
By the way, Munich has a very robust underground subway system (over 100 km of track). I'm pretty sure Boston is subway also.
Berlin also has a huge subway system. They have tram service in some parts of the city. I've never been to Rome, but a quick wiki shows that they use a subway also. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome_Metro
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You have to remember that Calgary's original three lines were built in the 80s when its metro population was 600 000-700 000. Vancouver's Skytrain was started in the mid 80s when its metro population was about double that. Skytrain, since it is automated, has a minimum design standard of 100% grade separation because there can't be driverless trains interacting with other modes. In the North American and even worldwide contexts, 100 year old cities with populations of less than a million simply do not build fully grade-separated rail transit.
Calgary's LRT does not have half the reach or maybe doesn't get built at all if the design standard at those times were 100% grade separation. Edmonton's LRT was built underground in the downtown and languished as a single line for 3 decades due to that costly decision, while Calgary's flourished. It was seen as a mistake and Edmonton is now building its next lines with at-grade infrastructure downtown (which is honestly not a bad decision either).
With the West LRT (finished in 2012) and the Green Line, grade separation is being employed in central areas, with some at-grade crossings in outlying areas. Furthermore, grade separation will be introduced to some crossings on the current system over time. This is a good approach.
Vancouver is moreso a region of multiple contiguous municipalities than Calgary's unicity (where most suburban growth is contained within the central municipality). Surrey, a Vancouver bedroom city that has a Skytrain line running to it (the original Expo line) could be seen as a comparable to Calgary's deep southeast greater McKenzie Towne. Surrey is actually planning to build at-grade LRT radiating out from the end of the Expo Skytrain line (map and rendering below):
The capital outlay for the fully-grade separated Skytrain is too much for these outlying areas as opposed to having some at grade crossings with surface-running LRT. The LRT option is just fine to effectively serve places like Surrey and McKenzie Towne. The Evergreen line to Port Coquitlam was also contemplated as at-grade LRT before being built as Skytrain.
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05-20-2017, 11:04 AM
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#120
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First Line Centre
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frinkprof
Calgary's LRT does not have half the reach or maybe doesn't get built at all if the design standard at those times were 100% grade separation. Edmonton's LRT was built underground in the downtown and languished as a single line for 3 decades due to that costly decision, while Calgary's flourished. It was seen as a mistake and Edmonton is now building its next lines with at-grade infrastructure downtown (which is honestly not a bad decision either).
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This is an unpopular opinion but I believe the Bow River tunnel is a mistake for this reason. I would have rather seen the train come into downtown elevated above grade and had the money to spend on a Crescent Heights station and more north line stations.
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