View Poll Results: Do you support the current version of CalgaryNEXT?
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Yes
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163 |
25.39% |
No
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356 |
55.45% |
Undecided
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123 |
19.16% |
01-04-2016, 04:26 PM
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#21
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Franchise Player
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West village is too far from downtown in my opinion to really generate an entertainment hub type experience. Its farther than where the saddledome is right now.
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01-04-2016, 04:26 PM
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#22
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug
I can't speak to Nationwide arena, but Verizon is a good one for sure. I don't think the WV precludes a similar effect though, as there really is no sense as to what the project would look like, if the football stadium/fieldhouse is removed. Same with Bunk's proposal. That could be a good location, but the train stations would still involve a decent hike and it obviously doesn't include the football stadium.
I don't have a major issue disaggregating the project, but it is comparing apples and oranges for sure.
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Verizon would be like if we stuck the arena at say 9th Ave and 5th Street SW, right in the heart of downtown. Verizon is very much in the midst of downtown DC office area, very built up urban fabric. West Village is an almost blank slate.
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01-04-2016, 04:34 PM
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#23
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#1 Goaltender
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Calgary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunk
Verizon would be like if we stuck the arena at say 9th Ave and 5th Street SW, right in the heart of downtown. Verizon is very much in the midst of downtown DC office area, very built up urban fabric. West Village is an almost blank slate.
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The DC core is obviously very different than Calgary, but I don't think WV is that far off. Verizon is a hike to get to the Mall and other touristy sites. If the football stadium is removed from the plan, I would think WV could be quite an attractive site.
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01-04-2016, 04:35 PM
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#24
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: NYYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tripin_billie
In comparison, the Flames have picked a questionable site and have proposed a design that creates a non-integrated, offset monolith. I highly doubt it would successfully revitalize the location.
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Solid post and I agree that the Flames proposal managed to strike out in pretty much all ways manageable.
1. The funding model is terribly one-sided.
2. The location itself, even if it were ready to build on, is questionable considering it necessitates building of an entirely new district when there are already much more natural options from a transportation, infrastructure, and entertainment perspective. Why build a new sports/entertainment district when one already exists?
3. The stadium concept itself is monolothic and cold. Just when everyone is looking to make their stadiums more human-scaled and friendly, the Flames are basically proposing to build Skydome 2.0.
What the Flames want to build, where they want to build it, and how they want to pay for it, is pretty much an uphill battle in all respects. There's nothing here that just fits naturally, and that you can really get behind. Even if they hoodwinked their citizens, at least what the Oilers are building is a well-designed project in the perfect location.
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01-04-2016, 04:39 PM
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#25
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Calgary
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Yah, hate to admit it, but the arena is one thing the Oilers definitely got right over the Flames right now. Their on ice management might suck, but at least their team overseeing the arena development seem pretty good.
Lol, is Ken King the Kevin Lowe equivalent in terms of Flames business operations?
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01-04-2016, 05:17 PM
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#26
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#1 Goaltender
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: DC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug
The DC core is obviously very different than Calgary, but I don't think WV is that far off. Verizon is a hike to get to the Mall and other touristy sites. If the football stadium is removed from the plan, I would think WV could be quite an attractive site.
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Verizon Center is about 5 minute walk from the mall, about 15 to the capital, and within 5 minutes of all 6 metro lines. I walk over to Gallery Place for lunch from a few blocks east, the restaurants are busy all day and then all evening. But it's just one of DC's downtown neighborhoods.
DC is really pedestrian, bike share, and metro-centric, which means people will walk all over about a 2 square mile area of downtown. Then, essentially all of the residential neighborhoods actually in the district are row houses and mixed with commercial. It's a walking paradise.
I'm not sure if Calgary, given the design and weather, could ever achieve something that would match the business of Verizon Center. But it could definitely, if the right location and design were picked, pull off something like the Arena District in Columbus. I'd just make the Flames pay for it.
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01-04-2016, 05:35 PM
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#27
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First Line Centre
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There's nothing wrong with the location itself. It is the most blighted area in close proximity to the downtown core and it will require significant public investment to remedy regardless of how the area is development. It's the design of the stadium/arena complex and the district as a whole that is the problem.
The way the Flames have handled this really bothers me. The location is great, the concept is good, we are in desperate need of a new stadium, and a Melbourne style central sports and entertainment precinct would be a great asset to the city. The poor design they've provided has killed public enthusiasm for what could be a really great project.
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01-04-2016, 05:48 PM
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#28
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: NYYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarley
The way the Flames have handled this really bothers me. The location is great, the concept is good, we are in desperate need of a new stadium, and a Melbourne style central sports and entertainment precinct would be a great asset to the city. The poor design they've provided has killed public enthusiasm for what could be a really great project.
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The thing is that we all kind of already have one of those in Vic Park/East Village. There are existing sports venues, casinos, restaurants, bars, public transit lines, new residential condos, soon to be new museums/library/hotels...all within walking distance. There's still plenty of room for improvement, but the momentum is there.
Why try to create a new sports/entertainment district from scratch, when you can just further improve the existing one? Trying to recreate everything in WV will stunt what's happening in Vic Park, and in the end we'll probably end up with two mediocre ones.
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01-04-2016, 06:00 PM
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#29
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First Line Centre
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Table 5
The thing is that we all kind of already have one of those in Vic Park/East Village. There are existing sports venues, casinos, restaurants, bars, public transit lines, new residential condos, soon to be new museums/library/hotels...all within walking distance. There's still plenty of room for improvement, but the momentum is there.
Why try to create a new sports/entertainment district from scratch, when you can just further improve the existing one? Trying to recreate everything in WV will stunt what's happening in Vic Park, and in the end we'll probably end up with two mediocre ones.
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I'd argue that what we have now is an incredibly weak example of a sports/entertainment district if you can even define it as one. It's more of a lose collection of venues that operate independently. Transit access to Vic Park is okay but the WV site is superior and the biggest problem with the area you propose is that there's not enough room for a stadium unless it's on the Remington lands, which are a non-starter due to costs.
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01-04-2016, 06:37 PM
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#30
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: NYYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarley
I'd argue that what we have now is an incredibly weak example of a sports/entertainment district if you can even define it as one. It's more of a lose collection of venues that operate independently.
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There's definitely room for improvement, which is why something more organized like in Bunk's sketch would help tie it all together. But in this case, to do it right, you don't have to spend possibly billions to remediate several city blocks, re-align Bow trail (and perhaps 14th), and create brand new infrastructure for every new entertainment venue.
Quote:
Transit access to Vic Park is okay but the WV site is superior
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How so? Once the Greenline is built, a Remington/Stampede location would have access to 3 stations that support all 3 LRT lines. WV would at best have access to 2 stations, supporting only 2 lines. The only benefit I see to WV is easier access to the bike/pathway system, but that's not as beneficial in the winter.
Quote:
and the biggest problem with the area you propose is that there's not enough room for a stadium unless it's on the Remington lands, which are a non-starter due to costs.
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Well sure if the Flames expect land for free in WV, than every other piece of land is a non-starter!
I'm sure Remington would ask for a large amount, but considering the remediation/alignment costs that simply can't be ignored to even get to a ground-breaking, is WV really any cheaper in the long-term?
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01-04-2016, 06:54 PM
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#31
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Franchise Player
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Can someone ELI5 as to why building on any of the empty Stampede parking lots just north or south, or west of the Dome (like Bunk's drawing), isn't CSE's first plan? Is it the Stampede corp stopping it? City? Private landowners?
Always seemed like a no brainer to just take over some of the existing lot space and then return the Dome's footprint to parking to offset that lost.
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01-04-2016, 06:58 PM
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#32
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarley
I'd argue that what we have now is an incredibly weak example of a sports/entertainment district if you can even define it as one. It's more of a lose collection of venues that operate independently. Transit access to Vic Park is okay but the WV site is superior and the biggest problem with the area you propose is that there's not enough room for a stadium unless it's on the Remington lands, which are a non-starter due to costs.
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I wouldn't call the WV superior for transit access. Least traveled train line with a small train stop..
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01-04-2016, 07:55 PM
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#33
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Calgary, AB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducay
Can someone ELI5 as to why building on any of the empty Stampede parking lots just north or south, or west of the Dome (like Bunk's drawing), isn't CSE's first plan? Is it the Stampede corp stopping it? City? Private landowners?
Always seemed like a no brainer to just take over some of the existing lot space and then return the Dome's footprint to parking to offset that lost.
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It would be on Stampede Park property and the Flames are apparently sick of having to deal with the Stampede Board.
I had assumed that the issue was lost parking revenue because the Stampede runs the parking lots around the Dome and collects all of the revenue from it, and the Flames were losing out on quite a lot of money. However, the CalgaryNext proposal includes very little on-site parking, so that must not be a big concern for them.
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01-04-2016, 08:14 PM
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#34
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Violating Copyrights
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I'd love to see the poll on this thread reset. I, like many others probably voted soon after the presentation. I know I would vote differently now.
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01-04-2016, 08:22 PM
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#35
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Calgary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by getbak
It would be on Stampede Park property and the Flames are apparently sick of having to deal with the Stampede Board.
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Yup, the owners want nothing to do with the Stampede board and their meddling. That's about as important a factor as anything else in this project, and has been since the very start of this.
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01-04-2016, 08:34 PM
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#36
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Retired
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Just for comparison sake, not that this means anything substantial, but the Flames have roughly 780K visitors in a 41 game season, the Stampede over 10 days has around 1.1 million. Probably more repeat visitors in the Flames numbers however.
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01-04-2016, 09:17 PM
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#37
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Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Nov 2015
Exp:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducay
Can someone ELI5 as to why building on any of the empty Stampede parking lots just north or south, or west of the Dome (like Bunk's drawing), isn't CSE's first plan? Is it the Stampede corp stopping it? City? Private landowners?
Always seemed like a no brainer to just take over some of the existing lot space and then return the Dome's footprint to parking to offset that lost.
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Why was I under the assumption that an Olympic built building cannot be torn down? Has anyone ever heard that? I would hate to see the dome get torn down as its a distinguishing feature to the Calgary skyline.
Also after attending a Winnipeg Jets game recently all I can say is the Dome is 100x better than that arena! Seats are tiny, venue is tiny. Made me really appreciate the dome. I've been to some new arenas too, the Dallas Stars arena is nice. I don't know what the best plan is here but I am fairly certain the proposal is terrible.
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01-04-2016, 11:20 PM
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#38
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: 555 Saddledome Rise SE
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Where does this Stampede - Flames disagreement/problems story come from? I've never heard anything about it and in speaking with a former board member it has been suggested to me that the relationship is positive.
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01-04-2016, 11:29 PM
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#39
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Lifetime Suspension
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Wasn't the Flood part of the reason they didn't want it near the Stampede grounds? Or is that more posturing from Ken King? With the Province doing mitigation it doesn't seem like it would be as big a deal to have it in a flood zone now.
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01-05-2016, 02:14 AM
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#40
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Won the Worst Son Ever Award
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Sherwood Park
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I've been hoping for a long time that the Flames and the Stampede board would come up with a solution together.
Having a stadium located around where the Saddledome is currently would provide the Stampede with a new and better location for the rodeo. They are currently limited in the number of premium seats that they can offer at the Grandstand. Those seats currently are very hard to get and I'd have to think lots of potential revenue is being left on the table. Not only could they use it for the rodeo during stampede but at night it would give them a place to hold big concerts like they do in Houston at NRG Stadium during RodeoHouston. Now instead of only being a 10 football game a year venue, they can add 10 days of rodeo and nightly concerts during the stampede. If the building has a roof (preferably retractable) they now have extra convention space and even more days of use outside of Stampede. It also gives them another venue they can sell the naming rights on.
With the Stampede being the primary tenant, I think that would open up funding options from the provincial and federal government as well to get it done. They each pitched in $25 million for the Agrium events centre when it was built. If each level of government contributed $50m, The Flames/Stamps throw in 25 million, the stampede does 25 million and another 75-100m coming from a ticket tax they could get a nice venue done coming in at around $275-$300 million (the same as Regina's new stadium).
Think about the parking revenue the Stampede would lose if the Flames left. Their 4,000 parking spaces bring in $60,000 per game. or $2,700,000 over 45 games. That doesn't factor in playoff games, Hitmen games, Roughneck games, concerts and anything else that happens at the Saddledome.
If the Flames were to leave the Stampede grounds any plans that do remain for the Stampede Trail and Stampede hotel plan would have to be shelved as I don't think it would be plausible to have that work without the arena bringing people to the area 100+ days of the year.
If the Flames are still willing to contribute for the arena, and have their ticket tax that could get done on it's own. Land would still be owned by the Stampede. The Stampede boards benefit would be they get to keep their parking revenue and would have a brand new arena to anchor around their retail and entertainment destination dreams. They could also have an agreement in place like they do currently to allow the Stampede to use the venue during the festival in July.
The Flames would have their new arena, they wouldn't need to pay for land and there would be no public money going towards the rink.
The Stampeders would have a new place to play to solidify their revenues
The Stampede would maintain their existing revenues from parking and be able to generate new revenues through the new stadium/convention space and potentially their hotel and retail plans
The neighbourhood has the potential to be a destination and an exciting community year round
The city gets to keep the west village in their back pocket as their next east village type project
The city's contribution to an eventual fieldhouse would mean it would be used 365 days a year for its intended purpose, and not an occasional pro stadium
There is no reworking of major roads to make it work
Everything remains central
Make it happen.
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