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Old 04-14-2006, 07:00 AM   #341
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Sooooooooo Retarded!!!
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Old 04-14-2006, 09:57 AM   #342
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A lot of you are missing the point.

The laws being enforced on the Red mile are not being enforced in an effort to encroach on your rights. The laws and rules are being enforced to prevent a 20,000 person time bomb from exploding.

Sure, you may be down there to peacefully celebrate the Flames' success... most people wouldn't go to 17th with the intent to start a riot. But by having 20,000 drunk people crammed so close together, the chance of a riot/violence is greatly increased.

The city is trying to reduce this risk and protect its citizens, because as we've seen hundreds of times in other cities - celebrations of sporting victories often lead to violence. Face the facts, the relatively peaceful celebrations of '04 were an anomaly - you wouldn't normally expect things to go as smoothly as they did. The city and merchants of 17th got lucky in '04 that nothing got out of hand.

The cops are giving out tickets now for being loud/public drunkeness/etc to set the stage for when a huge number of people try to converge on the Red Mile. By being extremely tough now, it sends a message that there will be zero tolerance for law-breaking activity come next week.

In fact, those of you posting about the tickets you got are playing right into the hands of the people trying to stop the Red Mile celebrations. You are spreading the word that there actually is zero tolerance on the Red Mile. You are getting their message out by posting your stories here. They want media coverage of the tickets they are handing out. If more people realize the severity of the fines and punishments, they will be less likely to engage in similar behaviour. Well done.

Last edited by Jonrox; 04-14-2006 at 10:02 AM.
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Old 04-14-2006, 10:45 AM   #343
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If the "authorities" are so worried about public drunkenness then pot should be legalized!
Can see it now...the Red Eyed Mile!
Of course that would raise the potential problem of masses of munchified Flames revellers descending on convenience stores, tossing empty potato chip bags everywhere etc. Oh, the horror...
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Old 04-14-2006, 10:49 AM   #344
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Unbelieveable to me that so many here are up in arms about the police doing what they are supposed to do....
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Old 04-14-2006, 12:47 PM   #345
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i think its soooo dumb...how are they going to control 50 000 people? if we all just going and give'r they cant bring us down
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Old 04-14-2006, 12:54 PM   #346
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I was out last night at the Rose and Crown and saw at least 5 suits arrested for I don't know what actions. I've been drinking downtown Calgary for more than 10 years and I doubt I can remember the last time I saw so many people arrested without a brawl being involved.

I'm a lawyer so I understand what the law is meant to protect; however, I think reasonableness has to enter into the thought process. Every city is going to celebrate out in the streets when their team is doing well. For example, I can remember for the freaking Jays in the early 90s the entire downtown section of Yonge street being shut down with only minor incidents. I personally believe that the most effective strategy is to have enough cops to prevent massive property damage or rioting but allow people to have some fun as it is not really interfering with anyone else's rights. I live on the Red Mile, I chose the location as I wanted to be close to the action. Homeowners in the area knew what they were buying (for the most part) when they bought.

Go Flames Go!
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Old 04-14-2006, 01:25 PM   #347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpaulus
I was out last night at the Rose and Crown and saw at least 5 suits arrested for I don't know what actions. I've been drinking downtown Calgary for more than 10 years and I doubt I can remember the last time I saw so many people arrested without a brawl being involved.

I'm a lawyer so I understand what the law is meant to protect; however, I think reasonableness has to enter into the thought process. Every city is going to celebrate out in the streets when their team is doing well. For example, I can remember for the freaking Jays in the early 90s the entire downtown section of Yonge street being shut down with only minor incidents. I personally believe that the most effective strategy is to have enough cops to prevent massive property damage or rioting but allow people to have some fun as it is not really interfering with anyone else's rights. I live on the Red Mile, I chose the location as I wanted to be close to the action. Homeowners in the area knew what they were buying (for the most part) when they bought.

Go Flames Go!
I remember that in Toronto as well. In reality though, the mindset in Toronto compared to Calgary is night and day. It is hard to compare the two cities, as Toronto has always been vibrant and had a great nighlife atmosphere. In T.O., partying and having fun(within the law) is celebrated and enjoyed.

Here, it is frowned upon. For the most part civic Calgary is content on remaining lifeless after 6pm. Pathetic for a city of this size. I dont think I have ever witnessed a city so backwards in my life. In an economic and career sense, Calgary is great. But for the younger generation, this is the worst city to be in, with respect to nightlife.

In addition, I agree with you, that homeowners knew what they were buying into. The funny thing is, with the exception of the playoff run, 17th avenue is never really that busy anyways. Even on weekends, it is not busy for the most part, when compared to other cities entertainment districts.

Were the suits drunk? Did you see the whole encounter? I was at Lucky for drinks then went out after. Legally I was in line, so the cops couldnt do anything at all to me.

Last edited by soulchoice; 04-14-2006 at 01:32 PM.
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Old 04-14-2006, 02:58 PM   #348
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From today's Herald, no link, front page of section "B" titled "Union Tells of Red Mile Horrors"

Basically, Police Union lead Al Koenig divulges a few stories in regards to the Red Mile in 2004, in defending the CPS stance on strict enforcement of the city bylaws.

Some of the major points:

"...saying sexual assults and weapon incidents seen by officers went unpunished because huge crowds made it impossible to arrest the perpetrators"
...
"During once night's post game celebrations, officers at an observation post saw a man take out a gun and fire it at a throng"

(no one appeared to be hurt)

"Officers tried to swarm as quickly as they could, but the guy melted back into the crowd"

Also mentioned was that CPS saw many people weidling knives, but again, the sheer amount of people made it tough to get to them.
...
"'By the end of the Red Mile in 2004, the crowd dynamics indicated the makings of a serious incident were there', said Insp. Peter Davidson"
...
"what began as a few women spontaneously flashing their breasts at the beginning of the playoffs at times degenerated into male revellers demanding it"
...
"'there were several sexual assults that occured' Koenig said"
...
"Seventeeth Avenue wasn't designed for those type (50000) size of crowds" Koenig, talking about the fact that there aren't enough officers to handle that crowd on 17th.

------

This is the probelm I usually have with police (and its mentioned in the article too), is that they often don't like to admit when they are in the wrong or screwed up. In this case, 2 years later, these details are finally, cautiously, admitted by the cops.

That said, this article shows that yes, by the end of the Red Mile, things were well out of control, and the "crowd dynamics" on 17th were overwhelmening to CPS.

With people pulling out guns and knives and demadning that women/girls bare their breasts and when they do, grope the girls, (Ken's story about a boyfriend getting beaten to death because he was protecting his gf from having to flash the crowd again in Seattle demonstrations a few years back fits here here), its a no brainer to see why the CPS wants to crack down on tempting fate again in that nothing serious happens again in a huge crowd that they obviously can't really control.

And to do that, you have to start with discourging/enforcing laws well before it gets to that stage..where people who get away with drinking on the street figure that they can then push the envelope and see what else they can do that the cops won't/can't stop them from doing next.

Last edited by browna; 04-14-2006 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 04-14-2006, 03:05 PM   #349
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Quote:
"Seventeeth Avenue wasn't designed for those type (50000) size of crowds" Koenig, talking about the fact that there aren' enough officers to handle that crowd on 17th."
Couldn't they borrow some of Vancouver's officers for the next couple of months? It should be pretty quiet there.

Edit: Learning to spell
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Old 04-14-2006, 03:29 PM   #350
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I've been reading these forums for a while and this topic has made me want to finally register. First of all I don't understand why people are shocked by this. Last year celebrations were great but they started to go over the top.

Many of you posting here don't realise that like myself there are a ton of people that acually live in the area. We already put up with the 2 week restrictions that are lifted from the noise bylaw for the Stampede and we don't need a 2 month extention of honking cars, screaming drunks, ****ing on our street corners and screaming.

I celebrate as much as the next guy but what happend to the days that if you watched a playoff game you drank where you started and then went home or to someone elses place to celebrate some more if so needed. If you won the cup then that night you were allowed to go crazy, not after every game. Most of the people complaining drive or cab from their areas of town and tear it up and are glad to go to their quiet area of town after. Well as a condo owner 1 block from 17th avenue I deserve to have my piece and quiet when I close my door at night. I might be tearing it up with friends also that night and consuming way more booze than I should but I respect my neighbours as the night goes on.

You have to understand that over the last 2 years our neighbourhoods around here has been infested with homeless people going through our garbages, ****ing in our back yards and walking around drunk bugging us for spare change everytime I hit a Macs store for a pack of smokes. By allowing a possible 2 month extension then we get 20,000 more drunks ****ing etc.

Listen what goes on around here last playoffs wouldn't even be allowed in Vegas. If you want to watch a game at Melrose or the Yardhouse and get ****ed up be my guest, I might be sitting next to you. But when I go home and need my sleep for the next day I demand that the police protect my property tax paying rights.

You don't need to walk around celebrating until the Flames win the cup, not at every win. But when that Cup is won go nuts for that one night. This area may belong to all Calgarians but I don't set up a all night bush party in your back yard for 2 months, so don't do it in mine.
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Old 04-14-2006, 03:37 PM   #351
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Report From the Red Mile 04/13/06:

Alright, so I'm going to start changing my tune a bit I think. I was down at Melrose to watch the game last night. Besides the fact that it's yuppy central I had a good time. Anyways after the game, we went outside and just stood around, enjoying the gorgeous weather. My buddy and I got our picture taken for the Herald but I don't think it got put in.

Lots of people cheering, high-fiving, chanting, etc without the cops really caring. One guy drove by and honked his horn and they gave him a ticket.

I went over and talked to one of the cops for about 20 minutes to get their side of the story. He said the Deputy Chief had been misquoted in the paper and that they had no problem with people coming down to the mile.

This guy really changed my perspective. He gave me his side of the story on the dude waving the flag and said people can yell and chant and carry on as much as possible, just don't be complete drunk-out-of-your-mind idiot.

During this, a couple of the idiots in line at Melrose drew attention to themselves by insulting the cops. These guys were ticketed and told to leave, and rightfully so.

Afterwards CTV interviewed me about my conversation with the cops. I think it was to air on the 11:30 news but I ended drinking too much gin and forgot to watch it.

Anyways, after all this I think I'm pretty pleased with the CPS' job so far. It's basically a common sense thing. If you're going to come down and behave like a goon you're going to be punished. Real Flames fans are more than welcome.
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Old 04-14-2006, 03:39 PM   #352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalgaryBeav
I've been reading these forums for a while and this topic has made me want to finally register. First of all I don't understand why people are shocked by this. Last year celebrations were great but they started to go over the top.

Many of you posting here don't realise that like myself there are a ton of people that acually live in the area. We already put up with the 2 week restrictions that are lifted from the noise bylaw for the Stampede and we don't need a 2 month extention of honking cars, screaming drunks, ****ing on our street corners and screaming.

I celebrate as much as the next guy but what happend to the days that if you watched a playoff game you drank where you started and then went home or to someone elses place to celebrate some more if so needed. If you won the cup then that night you were allowed to go crazy, not after every game. Most of the people complaining drive or cab from their areas of town and tear it up and are glad to go to their quiet area of town after. Well as a condo owner 1 block from 17th avenue I deserve to have my piece and quiet when I close my door at night. I might be tearing it up with friends also that night and consuming way more booze than I should but I respect my neighbours as the night goes on.

You have to understand that over the last 2 years our neighbourhoods around here has been infested with homeless people going through our garbages, ****ing in our back yards and walking around drunk bugging us for spare change everytime I hit a Macs store for a pack of smokes. By allowing a possible 2 month extension then we get 20,000 more drunks ****ing etc.

Listen what goes on around here last playoffs wouldn't even be allowed in Vegas. If you want to watch a game at Melrose or the Yardhouse and get ****ed up be my guest, I might be sitting next to you. But when I go home and need my sleep for the next day I demand that the police protect my property tax paying rights.

You don't need to walk around celebrating until the Flames win the cup, not at every win. But when that Cup is won go nuts for that one night. This area may belong to all Calgarians but I don't set up a all night bush party in your back yard for 2 months, so don't do it in mine.
Dude, to be fair you bought your home knowing what 17th is like. That's like somebody buying a house next to Deerfoot and then bitching about the traffic noise.
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Old 04-14-2006, 03:40 PM   #353
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of course, most fans think that things do need to be a little more controlled - some of the comments from the police, I take with a grain of salt...2 years later they are saying this? Sounds like rationalization to me...

they could have ended the Red Mile with the same level of enforcement during the Stanley Cup finals if this was such a dangerous situation. Nor did the police say anything immediately after the Flames lost the Cup.

My question is "why wait this long"? the timing of those comments seem more like the police trying to rationalize their enforcement in the face of public outcry....

I live 3 blocks away from melrose, so I understand homeowners who want to get some rest on weekdays - but there must be a compromise between being able to celebrate and wanting no Red Mile at all.

Again, fans need to realize that the Red Mile will absolutely be closed down if they don't act resposibly.
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Old 04-14-2006, 03:46 PM   #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary
of course, most fans think that things do need to be a little more controlled - some of the comments from the police, I take with a grain of salt...2 years later they are saying this? Sounds like rationalization to me...

they could have ended the Red Mile with the same level of enforcement during the Stanley Cup finals if this was such a dangerous situation. Nor did the police say anything immediately after the Flames lost the Cup.

My question is "why wait this long"? the timing of those comments seem more like the police trying to rationalize their enforcement in the face of public outcry....
As I said this is the problem I usually have with the cops, especially in the media. This should have been brought out much sooner than now.

However, that doesn't change the facts of the story.

I don't think they made up someone firing a gun, or phony sexual assults, or the fact that they really couldn't properly control the size and type of crowd that was congregating on 17th come the SCF.
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Old 04-14-2006, 03:53 PM   #355
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firing a gun at the crowd? That doesn't get passed on even through the lens of "urban myth"? Unlikely...that's a kind of story that would have made the news-too many people around not too-the red mile was shoulder to shoulder people, so I'd guess at least the people around "the shooter" would have heard or seen it.

if the Red Mile was an issue in 2004, the police should release all their reports for full public scruntiny-people are pretty understanding, esp. if the problems are to the extent they say it is.

I am hopeful that both fans and the police will act responsibly so that the Red Mile does continue long into the future.
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Old 04-14-2006, 04:09 PM   #356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rubecube
Dude, to be fair you bought your home knowing what 17th is like. That's like somebody buying a house next to Deerfoot and then bitching about the traffic noise.
That is not a fair comparison. Deerfoot has traffic 365 days a year. Every place you live in this city has noise bylaws and you are not allowed to climb up lightposts and pee in the streets.

The housing around here is not sold with the fantastic benifit of noise and 20,000 people partying all night. And I owned my place before the last season so there was NO celebrating there in the first place.

There is more to 17th ave than drinking and partying, it's the community, the stores, the nightlife (inside bars, not outside). If all you think 17th ave is about is drinking then you will never get it. What did you think would happen when this was going on between arguably the most expensive houses on the south side and pretty close to the most expensive condos on the north side.
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Old 04-14-2006, 04:17 PM   #357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalgaryBeav
That is not a fair comparison. Deerfoot has traffic 365 days a year. Every place you live in this city has noise bylaws and you are not allowed to climb up lightposts and pee in the streets.

The housing around here is not sold with the fantastic benifit of noise and 20,000 people partying all night. And I owned my place before the last season so there was NO celebrating there in the first place.

There is more to 17th ave than drinking and partying, it's the community, the stores, the nightlife (inside bars, not outside). If all you think 17th ave is about is drinking then you will never get it. What did you think would happen when this was going on between arguably the most expensive houses on the south side and pretty close to the most expensive condos on the north side.
Yes I undetstand that. 17th Ave is never completely dead though. Oh and you should've expected the hobos.
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Old 04-14-2006, 04:26 PM   #358
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Yes I undetstand that. 17th Ave is never completely dead though. Oh and you should've expected the hobos.
As I've said before I do understand celebrating a cup win would be a fantastic thing for the city and it's people. But celebrating a 2nd game win over Anaheim in the first round does not warrent an all out 20k people screaming and running around with open booze. This is an EXCUSE to go out of control, not any good reason.

I just hope you see my side of the story also. And 17th ave late at night is very dead. Everyone is indoors wherever they are partying. There are people there but only a few are walking around besides looking for a cab or on their way home.

And yes the bums were there before I moved in, but the population has exploded and needs to be taken care of. But that is another topic
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Old 04-14-2006, 04:33 PM   #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalgaryBeav
and you are not allowed to climb up lightposts and pee in the streets.
Wow, I didn't see anybody peeing from a lightpost 2 years ago. I think I'm glad I missed that part.

(Sorry, just had to inject a little humour.)
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Old 04-14-2006, 09:23 PM   #360
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Quote:
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As I've said before I do understand celebrating a cup win would be a fantastic thing for the city and it's people. But celebrating a 2nd game win over Anaheim in the first round does not warrent an all out 20k people screaming and running around with open booze.
I understand your position, and clearly you can't justify open alcohol, but really who are you to decide what people should and should not celebrate, and to what extent?
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