Canada seeking to replace CF-18 fighter fleet

[Zulu29]

Read in the news the other day that the government may not pick the much maligned F-35 after all. Apparently the Eurofighter, F-15 Silent Eagle and F-18 Super Hornet are being considered. If they go with any of those they'll get more than 65 planes which is what they'll get from the F-35, plus all the others have two engines which is beneficial if your engine flames out over the arctic while on patrol.

[mykalberta]

They need to do this for optics alone now.

I wonder if the Eurofighter might be in the running as an incentive for the trade agreement with the EU.

From a practical sense it makes sense to standardize on what the US is going to use but that may even be in doubt as a full on replacement.

[Jacks]

If they drop the stealth requirement then there are several jets that can fill the role. Word is that newer technology may render current stealth functionality useless. Regardless of what jet they go with it needs to happen soon. The Sea King fiasco shows what happens when we ignore the need to replace aging aircraft.

[peter12]

Oh man, this is news, how? What an absolute embarrassment.

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

They need to do this for optics alone now.

I wonder if the Eurofighter might be in the running as an incentive for the trade agreement with the EU.

From a practical sense it makes sense to standardize on what the US is going to use but that may even be in doubt as a full on replacement.

Apparently the Eurofighter uses standardized equipment with all NATO allies except France. They built their own fighter the dassault rafale which uses different weapons/weapon system. If buying 120 or whatever eurofighters helps get free trade with Europe I say do it.

[Hatter]

An interesting option would be to look into the F-22 Raptor. It's currently banned for sale by US Congress, but they previously considered selling them to Japan and Australia.

At ~175 million per unit, 65 of them would cost 11.4B. I'm obviously no expert on aircraft procurement, but 4.6B set aside for maintenance would keep us to the original 16B budget for the F-35.

Obviously the Americans could refuse to sell it, or raise the unit price, but it should be something the government looks into, even briefly.

[rd_aaron]

Originally Posted by Hatter

An interesting option would be to look into the F-22 Raptor. It's currently banned for sale by US Congress, but they previously considered selling them to Japan and Australia.

At ~175 million per unit, 65 of them would cost 11.4B. I'm obviously no expert on aircraft procurement, but 4.6B set aside for maintenance would keep us to the original 16B budget for the F-35.

Obviously the Americans could refuse to sell it, or raise the unit price, but it should be something the government looks into, even briefly.

I think the problem is the Canadian gov't is looking for a multi-purpose fighter, whereas the F22 was mostly designed for air-to-air combat.

[Knut]

< Sitting here waiting for Captain Crunch to make an appearance >

[Plett25]

Originally Posted by Hatter

An interesting option would be to look into the F-22 Raptor.

I don't think the F-22 is in production anymore

[CaptainCrunch]

I'm not much of a fan of the replacement aircraft for the F-25.

The silent eagle and the superhornet are transitional aircraft at best to me.

I don't like being dependant on a European manufacturer for aircraft and parts.

If the F-35 worked properly and came in on budget to me it would be the only choice available.

We have to buy a single fleet of aircraft of one type that can do all roles equally well and has the highest possible kill ratio because our fleet is going to be inherantly small.

In capability comparisons the F35 is the superior bird in terms of capability and interoperability.

Its a shame that the American's muffed this thing so badly.

And as much as technology is advancing in stealth detection, there's a reason why the Russian's and American's and Chinese are cramming so much money into radar defeating airframes and materials, there's a better chance of completing your mission and saving the lives of your pilots.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Plett25

I don't think the F-22 is in production anymore

The tools and stamps are still available to restart production. But its the preminant air superiority fighter in the world, but its not built to be multirole and that's what Canada needs.

they need an aircraft that can fight in and out of a battlezone and deploy bombs or missiles to support ground troops.

The F-22 would pretty much wipe the sky of any aircraft out there. The Chinese are trying to replicate it with what they are calling a first generation test bed stealth fighter, but from what I've read they are stuggling with the materials that are needed to make the F-22 special.

[Hatter]

Originally Posted by rd_aaron

I think the problem is the Canadian gov't is looking for a multi-purpose fighter, whereas the F22 was mostly designed for air-to-air combat.

They upgraded the ground strike and electronic warfare suites earlier in 2012, but this could well be the case.

[polak]

We all know they're going to settle for some used bi-planes from Zambia that will promplty catch fire.

It's the Canadian Forces way.

[CaptainCrunch]

On the f-15silent eagle which is a upgraded 15e with radar absorbant material and a internal weapons by, its not a 5th generation fighter, its a 4.5 at best. Its still going to be a pretty costly bird at 100 million per copy its expensive for what it does, especially if we have to increase the size of the fleet from the 65 5-35 due to capabilities.

The f-18 super hornet is priced at about 70 million per copy, and while its advanced over the cf-18's that we have now, its now a generation behind the more advanced fighters that are coming out, is limited in its upgradibility and by the time its retired in 30 or 40 years it will be a very incapable fighter.

The Eurofighter would probably come with a price tag of $100 million per copy since the version 1 and 2 are at 65 million euro's and the trache 3 is at 90 million euro's. It wold be an expensive bird as well depending on the cf-35 costs. Its a capable bird but again the question of an expanded fleet due to diminisioned capability comes into play. There would also be the question of interoperation requirements within Nato.

All three planes would also like the F35 require a very expensive retool and training program. The super hornet looks like the hornet in principle but has a modified larger air frame, flys differently and has different avionics, engines and control systems.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The tools and stamps are still available to restart production. But its the preminant air superiority fighter in the world, but its not built to be multirole and that's what Canada needs.

What is it that makes the F-22 less versatile than the F-35? (Not that the F-22 solves the problem of unit cost.)

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Hatter

They upgraded the ground strike and electronic warfare suites earlier in 2012, but this could well be the case.

Its still pretty much a air to air platform.

They changed the radar and it allowed them to carry ground attack weapons.

The F-22 in ground attack carries 2 1000 pound J-Dams or 8 250 pound bombs on top of 2 Amraams and 2 sidewinders.


The F-35 and the CF-18 respectively are basically bomb trucks that can carry several times more in terms of air to ground bombs or missiles.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by SebC

What is it that makes the F-22 less versatile than the F-35? (Not that the F-22 solves the problem of unit cost.)

It doesn't carry much in the way of air to ground strike capability.

Its advantage at higher altitudes tend to be nullified at low altitude.

Its a more fragile airframe in terms of ability to take damage and be functional.

I don't see anywhere where it has air to surface missile capability so it doesn't carry a maverick package or a anti radiation missile package.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by SebC

What is it that makes the F-22 less versatile than the F-35? (Not that the F-22 solves the problem of unit cost.)

A lack of oxygen seems to be the current problem.

[Hack&Lube]

The F-22 is a pointless thing to look at. Production is terminated, tooling is only for spare parts, the USAF doesn't even have reserve aircraft...and finally export is banned by Federal Law.

[Northendzone]

I feel the need, the need for speed