Bars scanning drivers' licenses

[fredr123]

Also in the Calgary Herald today, a local law student is challenging Tantra Nighclub's policy of scanning drivers' licenses before allowing patrons to enter their establishment.

No doubt the bar will claim they are a private establishment and can do whatever they want to those seeking entry (not true). If people don't want to comply they can fata off. They'll likely claim scanning IDs ensures patrons safety. Those that break rules can be tracked down more easily and properly punished.

Public safety is a noble goal for sure. But the way the clubs collect and retain the data may violate law. When the Den instituted their system, I was a member of the Students Union. One of the virtues of the system eventually purchased was the ability to link up with other clubs so that they can tell if a particular customer may have been involved in incidents at other clubs.

I'm not sure there are adequate precautions taken to ensure such information is collected securely and retained no longer than reasonably necessary. As well, I doubt there is sufficient notice available stating for what purpose your data is being collected and who it will be disclosed to (all of which is required by law).

What do you think?

[moon]

I have no problem at all with the bar scanning my ID.

If it does increase the chacne so f them keeping idiots out that go to bars to start troubel then I am all for it. The bars suck already with so many idiots tarting stuff there that I rarely want to go anyways, if this can stop some of that then maybe I would frequent these places more often.

[fredr123]

You definitely should feel safe in a club. Having a good time should be the priority, not worrying whether you're going to get stabbed or caught in the crossfire of some gang shooting.

One problem here, and I think you alluded to it moon, is that IF it keeps idiots out. I'm not convinced it will/does. You already have to be in a database of idiots for your ID to be flagged. Then you have to rely on the bouncer, potentially on a very busy night, to deny entry to this guy. Who knows what kind of info will be in there to aid in his decision. Who knows if he'll even bother to make a stink. Might not be worth his trouble to put up a fuss.

You also gotta wonder where this database is, who's contributing to it and who has access to it. That's probably the scariest part. ID thefts are becoming more prominent and increasingly costly to innocent persons. Weak protection measures (or a total lack thereof) don't help the situation much.

Then there's always the question of whether taking the scan of your license is really necessary. If it isn't, you can't be refused services for refusing to provide personal info...

[Fobulous]

Scanning IDs is all good IMO

The idiots that run these establishments now need to realize that it is 2005 and racism should not be used to discriminate people from bars. I have not been allowed into bars countless times due to my skin color. I have never ever been involved in any fights or caused any trouble at the bars. If these idiots would just understand that skin color does not determine whether you are going to get into a fight... It's a person attitude.

[Incinerator]

Originally posted by fredr123@Aug 11 2005, 02:32 PM


No doubt the bar will claim they are a private establishment and can do whatever they want to those seeking entry (not true). If people don't want to comply they can fata off.

It is true. The bar isn't providing an essential service, this is not like Calgary Transit telling you we have to scan your licence or you can walk. It IS a private establishment and they can do whatever the hell they want, if you don't like it you can leave. So says our legal system. It's the same thing as getting searched at the Saddledome before a concert, if you don't want to be searched they will issue you a refund and ask you to leave.

[Incinerator]

Originally posted by Fobulous@Aug 11 2005, 04:52 PM
Scanning IDs is all good IMO

The idiots that run these establishments now need to realize that it is 2005 and racism should not be used to discriminate people from bars. I have not been allowed into bars countless times due to my skin color. I have never ever been involved in any fights or caused any trouble at the bars. If these idiots would just understand that skin color does not determine whether you are going to get into a fight... It's a person attitude.

This is why I've never gone to any bars after the age of 19, idiots running the place AND idiots running all over the place! Two kinds of idiots in one place, who'd want to deal with that?

[fredr123]

Originally posted by Incinerator@Aug 11 2005, 09:55 AM

It is true. The bar isn't providing an essential service, this is not like Calgary Transit telling you we have to scan your licence or you can walk. It IS a private establishment and they can do whatever the hell they want, if you don't like it you can leave. So says our legal system.

For anyone interested, the relevant legislation in Alberta is called the Personal Information Protection Act. The provision below is quite interesting:

7(1) An organization shall not, as a condition of supplying a product or service,
require an individual to consent to the collection, use or disclosure of
personal information about an individual beyond what is necessary to provide
the product or service.

So is it necessary to have your license scanned and a copy of the information contained therein to be retained for whatever use the club wants? I would have to say no. But this is where the safety argument would come into play. It may be necessary to have the scan in order to provide a safe bar experience. Whether the bar is actually safer because of the ID scan remains to be seen (I'm not convinced it is).

And there are limits to what a private establishment can do prior to granting you entry. They can't violate the law. PIPA is a law in Alberta that may be violated through this policy (hence the whole complaint in the first place). Saddledome staff can't say "This is our private establishment. Everyone has to drop trou and do thirteen jumping jacks before they can be admitted." I guess they could say that but they won't be able to get away with it...

[Incinerator]

Originally posted by fredr123@Aug 11 2005, 05:09 PM
But this is where the safety argument would come into play. It may be necessary to have the scan in order to provide a safe bar experience. Whether the bar is actually safer because of the ID scan remains to be seen (I'm not convinced it is).

And there are limits to what a private establishment can do prior to granting you entry. They can't violate the law. PIPA is a law in Alberta that may be violated through this policy (hence the whole complaint in the first place). Saddledome staff can't say "This is our private establishment. Everyone has to drop trou and do thirteen jumping jacks before they can be admitted." I guess they could say that but they won't be able to get away with it...

Yes, I agree that's exactly where the argument will come in and that is also exactly where the law student will lose should he decide to sue the bar, he doesn't have a good leg to stand on if the PIPA is the only thing he got. And no, no bar staff will tell you something like "drop trou and do thirteen jumping jacks", that is a really bad comparison.

[fredr123]

He's not suing, he's making a complaint to the Privacy Commissioner. There's a difference. Usually the Commissioner just looks at the situation, talks to both sides and tries to mediate a solution. Often time the worst that happens is a report is released with recommendations for change. Maybe the scanning practice will be okayed but must include some kind of explicit safeguards in accord with PIPA policy.

I disagree with you that the PIPA isn't a "good leg to stand on" in the case of a complaint to the Commission. In addition to the provision I cited below, there are a plethora of other requirements for compliance with PIPA that may be of concern here. Even if it is okay for Tantra and others to collect this information (which it very well may be) they have to conform with the Act with respect to how the info is collected, how it is retained and who it may be disclosed to. There are also issues with making the collection/retention policy available to those that inquire. Maybe all these policies are already in place and this whole issue is moot. If that were the case, though, then I would have assumed the Pennylane guy would have said that rather than essentially telling the paper that those who disagree with the scanning can fata off.

And the trou example is fine. It's an example of something a private organization could ask of its potential customers that is completely irrelevant and would never stand any kind of scrutiny. Frisk searches and ID scanning are much more relevant to their intended purpose but I'm just taking your statement that "they can do whatever the hell they want" to an extreme to show you may be exaggerating a bit...

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally posted by Fobulous@Aug 11 2005, 09:52 AM
Scanning IDs is all good IMO

The idiots that run these establishments now need to realize that it is 2005 and racism should not be used to discriminate people from bars. I have not been allowed into bars countless times due to my skin color. I have never ever been involved in any fights or caused any trouble at the bars. If these idiots would just understand that skin color does not determine whether you are going to get into a fight... It's a person attitude.

Ditto.

As a born and raised Calgarian, I can honestly say that nothing has ever insulted and inraged me as much as the racial profiling that I've had to deal with at Calgary Nightclubs. Like you, I have never been in a fight or caused any kind of trouble in any club/bar or anywhere and having to go through this shinguard in my own home town p*sses me off like nothing else.

If scanning ID's will stop this shinguard (which I still doubt) I am all for it.
I would scan my ID, Sign a Waiver and give collateral if that's what it takes to do to not be treated with racism.

[fredr123]

Originally posted by Winsor_Pilates+Aug 11 2005, 11:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Winsor_Pilates @ Aug 11 2005, 11:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Fobulous@Aug 11 2005, 09:52 AM
Scanning IDs is all good IMO

The idiots that run these establishments now need to realize that it is 2005 and racism should not be used to discriminate people from bars. I have not been allowed into bars countless times due to my skin color. I have never ever been involved in any fights or caused any trouble at the bars. If these idiots would just understand that skin color does not determine whether you are going to get into a fight... It's a person attitude.

Ditto.

As a born and raised Calgarian, I can honestly say that nothing has ever insulted and inraged me as much as the racial profiling that I've had to deal with at Calgary Nightclubs. Like you, I have never been in a fight or caused any kind of trouble in any club/bar or anywhere and having to go through this shinguard in my own home town p*sses me off like nothing else.

If scanning ID's will stop this shinguard (which I still doubt) I am all for it.
I would scan my ID, Sign a Waiver and give collateral if that's what it takes to do to not be treated with racism. [/b][/quote]
It's super shinguardty that kind of thing happens and I hope that Global expose forced clubs to smarten up (probably didn't though). Not sure how scanning an ID has anything to do with preventing racial profiling at the entrance to a club...

[Claeren]

You were a member of the Students Union during that bullshinguard?

I was so p*ssed, those Students Union owned bars are not only poorly run but those scanners are frikkin illegal.



They require you to scan your licence/ID before entry. But that data is shared over the entire network of scanners/bars. So the university is sharing its students data with every night club in the city? That seems like a good idea!!! Ever heard of FOIP?

Even better, those bars are owned by the student collective on government property, they are certainly not private in the traditional sense. They could demand to see University ID i suppose, to prove membership in the ownership collective, but they CANNOT under any circumstance share that data with other establishments as they currently do. I wish i had challenged it at the time....



Claeren.

[arsenal]

Originally posted by fredr123@Aug 11 2005, 11:33 AM
Not sure how scanning an ID has anything to do with preventing racial profiling at the entrance to a club...

Well, instead of looking at the person's race, you would scan the person's id, and see if they have been involved in any incidents at any other bars around town.

It would be based on a person's actions, instead of race.

[fredr123]

Originally posted by Claeren+Aug 11 2005, 12:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Claeren @ Aug 11 2005, 12:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You were a member of the Students Union during that bullshinguard?

I was so p*ssed, those Students Union owned bars are not only poorly run but those scanners are frikkin illegal.



They require you to scan your licence/ID before entry. But that data is shared over the entire network of scanners/bars. So the university is sharing its students data with every night club in the city? That seems like a good idea!!! Ever heard of FOIP?

Even better, those bars are owned by the student collective on government property, they are certainly not private in the traditional sense. They could demand to see University ID i suppose, to prove membership in the ownership collective, but they CANNOT under any circumstance share that data with other establishments as they currently do. I wish i had challenged it at the time....



Claeren.[/b]

OP/FI Commissioner. I can't remember if I was on council when it was purchased and instituted or just when it was discussed. Either way, I was pretty useless at SLC. In hindsight I too wish I would have done more to ensure students didn't get hosed at their own bar...

<!--QuoteBegin-arsenal@Aug 11 2005, 12:04 PM
Well, instead of looking at the person's race, you would scan the person's id, and see if they have been involved in any incidents at any other bars around town.

It would be based on a person's actions, instead of race.
[/quote]

Sounds like a good idea in theory. In practice, it doesn't do crap to stop a bouncer from telling an Asian dude that his shoes don't conform to dress code...

[CrzyCanuck]

Canadian Tire recently agreed to get rid of all the drivers licsence information they have kept on file when a person returns merchandise, and will no longer be asking for ID either. Privacy law is a good thing, and I don't buy a shady bar keeping my vital stats on there system.

[fredr123]

Originally posted by CrzyCanuck@Aug 11 2005, 01:29 PM
Canadian Tire recently agreed to get rid of all the drivers licsence information they have kept on file when a person returns merchandise, and will no longer be asking for ID either.

As though anyone's going to read this decision...

[Igottago]

Originally posted by fredr123+Aug 11 2005, 06:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (fredr123 @ Aug 11 2005, 06:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Ditto.

As a born and raised Calgarian, I can honestly say that nothing has ever insulted and inraged me as much as the racial profiling that I've had to deal with at Calgary Nightclubs. Like you, I have never been in a fight or caused any kind of trouble in any club/bar or anywhere and having to go through this shinguard in my own home town p*sses me off like nothing else.

If scanning ID's will stop this shinguard (which I still doubt) I am all for it.
I would scan my ID, Sign a Waiver and give collateral if that's what it takes to do to not be treated with racism.

It's super shinguardty that kind of thing happens and I hope that Global expose forced clubs to smarten up (probably didn't though). Not sure how scanning an ID has anything to do with preventing racial profiling at the entrance to a club... [/b][/quote]
Unfortunatley the Global story didn't change much..I've had similar experiences a few times since that story ran..

I like the idea of scanning ID's, and don't really see how intrusive it is into an individual's privacy. Didn't they use the ID scanning a few years back? I remember getting it scanned a few times..

[fredr123]

So ID scanning existed and was used years ago. Racial profiling continues. ID scanning doesn't help prevent racial profiling and other kinds of discrimination based on race. Like I said: it sucks royally that people are getting profiled and treated like they are. I'm just saying the ID scanning was never introduced to prevent that kind of thing.

And for what it's worth, the law student in the article is tall and white. His brother was a model and they both look similar (ie he's a good-looking white guy). Profiling doesn't really apply in his case...

[CrzyCanuck]

Originally posted by fredr123+Aug 11 2005, 08:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (fredr123 @ Aug 11 2005, 08:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-CrzyCanuck@Aug 11 2005, 01:29 PM
Canadian Tire recently agreed to get rid of all the drivers licsence information they have kept on file when a person returns merchandise, and will no longer be asking for ID either.

As though anyone's going to read this decision... [/b][/quote]
http://www.oipc.ab.ca/ims/client/upload/In...2005-IR-007.pdf


I think this is the one you were looking for.

[Incinerator]

Originally posted by fredr123@Aug 11 2005, 07:37 PM

Sounds like a good idea in theory. In practice, it doesn't do crap to stop a bouncer from telling an Asian dude that his shoes don't conform to dress code...

Ever interviewed for a bouncer gig? Then you'd know what really goes on in the bouncer's head when he's feeding you lines about how your shoes don't conform to the dress code.