How long 'till Own the Podium organizers call it an 'outright success'?

[bcb]

At last count, Canada had 9 medals, the Americans had 24 and there were 4 other teams in between.

I've read repeatedly, that Canadians should not panic because we'll do better in the second half of the Games, but unless the Americans pull a boycott, I don't see us Owning the Podium.

So, assuming we don't win the most medal at this games, I see two possible responses from OTP organizers:

1.) "Own the Podium was a resounding success because it encouraged all Canadians to back their athletes in their quest for glory. When we said 'Own the Podium", 'we didn't actually mean get the most medals', rather we envisioned all Canadians empowering themselves to be the best athletes they can be. PS, even if we did plan to own the podium, we didn't mean THIS year. It's was going to be in 2014. We'll be tops then, believe it! Keep the funding coming!!!!"

2.) "We failed to Own the Podium, misalocated resources and owe taxpayers an apology."
In other words, when will the excuses start?

[VANFLAMESFAN]

USA has been nothing short of amazing these games. Canada can only do so much and we should all be very proud of our athletes if Canada can finish second in the overall standings and I believe they will.

[bcb]

USA has been nothing short of amazing these games. Canada can only do so much and we should all be very proud of our athletes if Canada can finish second in the overall standings and I believe they will.

Assuming the Germans collapse.

[pepper24]

Top 3 I am happy. Sports Illustrated had us projected to be 2nd place behind the Germans I believe. They had the Americans in 3rd.

[Flames in 07]

maybe the worst 2 days of canadian olympic performances this weekend that i can ever remember. The games are still fun to watch, but there has been a healthy dose of choking vs expectations and past performances since friday night.

[HotHotHeat]

USA has been nothing short of amazing these games. Canada can only do so much and we should all be very proud of our athletes if Canada can finish second in the overall standings and I believe they will.

Jeeze, you're hittin' the kool-aid. The Canadians have shown to be choke-jobs left, right and centre. It's been incredibly frustrating and to say I'm proud would be a vast over statement.

[bcb]

Top 3 I am happy. Sports Illustrated had us projected to be 2nd place behind the Germans I believe. They had the Americans in 3rd.

Our attitude of accepting 'top three' will prevent us from ever becoming a powerhouse.

You can be sure the Koreans and Chinese aren't happy with 'top three'.

[Thor]

Depends for me, growing up at the 88 games, watching that to seeing how we did in Turin if we beat Turin in results I'll be happy all things considering.

[octothorp]

If the program had set a goal of fifth, would it be any more of a success? I don't have a problem with them setting ambitious goals, and they developed a team of athletes in such a way that on paper, it should compete with the americans and germans. Is the fault with the people writing the cheques, or the people cashing them? Unfortunately, the OTP program doesn't have the option of trading a mentally weak speedskater for a couple chinese gymnasts; if the athletes are underperforming, the only option is to replace them from within or help them perform better.

[Thor]

Our attitude of accepting 'top three' will prevent us from ever becoming a powerhouse.

You can be sure the Koreans and Chinese aren't happy with 'top three'.

In overall results, yes for Koreans, no for Chinese. China has 1 billion people and big funding for summer and winter olympics.

Korea focuses only on a few sports.

Not sure why that comparison. :blink:

[bcb]

In overall results, yes for Koreans, no for Chinese. China has 1 billion people and big funding for summer and winter olympics.

Korea focuses only on a few sports.

Not sure why that comparison. :blink:

It's all about the mentality

[bcb]

If the program had set a goal of fifth, would it be any more of a success? I don't have a problem with them setting ambitious goals, and they developed a team of athletes in such a way that on paper, it should compete with the americans and germans. Is the fault with the people writing the cheques, or the people cashing them? Unfortunately, the OTP program doesn't have the option of trading a mentally weak speedskater for a couple chinese gymnasts; if the athletes are underperforming, the only option is to replace them from within or help them perform better.

If we had set a goal for fifth, then yes, it would have been a success. Organizers gave a huge increase in taxpayer money to get the most overall medals. Anything short of that is simply failing to meet the goal.

[LockedOut]

A good measuring stick for this Olympics would be the Turin Olympics. Canada had 24 medals in that games for 3rd overall and only 1 medal behind the US. Add home advantage to that and seeing where we are now we are way off where we should be.

[Thor]

It's all about the mentality

So every single athlete in the Canadian team is of the same mental fortitude, and obviously the fact they all come from different backgrounds, different people involved in their training, your big light bulb moment is they all have mentality problems.

Probably why the US lost to Germany in overall medal totals in Salt lake, and by gold totals 3rd. They were not mentally tough in their home country.

[Ace Handy]

Jeeze, you're hittin' the kool-aid. The Canadians have shown to be choke-jobs left, right and centre. It's been incredibly frustrating and to say I'm proud would be a vast over statement.

Does anyone else find it hilarious that people are calling out Olympic athletes for choking on an internet forum?

"If it weren't for my chronic asthma and bifocals I'd have like six gold medals by now."

Calling it "Own the Podium" was a mistake. We came across as cocky and are being put in our place.

[VANFLAMESFAN]

Jeeze, you're hittin' the kool-aid. The Canadians have shown to be choke-jobs left, right and centre. It's been incredibly frustrating and to say I'm proud would be a vast over statement.

Did you read my post?? I said IF they finish in second, we should be proud of all the athletes. Yes, it's been disappointing so far, but there's still an entire week left.

[valo403]

It's all about the mentality

What mentality? Dumping all of your funding and focus into a select few sports and forgetting about anything else? That's what Korea does.

This board is hilarious, all the choke artist cracks from a bunch of guys who probably can't even piss in a crowded bathroom due to stage fright.

[bcb]

What mentality? Dumping all of your funding and focus into a select few sports and forgetting about anything else? That's what Korea does.

This board is hilarious, all the choke artist cracks from a bunch of guys who probably can't even piss in a crowded bathroom due to stage fright.

Look, just because I hold it till I get home, does not make me a loser:boom:

That being said, It's not like these athletes do anything much else besides train for large competitions.

Here's the thing. In any Olympics, we can expect a few chokes and a few pleasant surprises.

This Games, the Chokes are leading the Surprises by about 15-1

[MelBridgeman]

A good measuring stick for this Olympics would be the Turin Olympics. Canada had 24 medals in that games for 3rd overall and only 1 medal behind the US. Add home advantage to that and seeing where we are now we are way off where we should be.

Not sure how much of an advantage that really is...

[FanIn80]

As far as I'm concerned... As long as we win gold in men's hockey, we could finish last in every single event and still win the Olympics.

[SOMBRI2]

In overall results, yes for Koreans, no for Chinese. China has 1 billion people and big funding for summer and winter olympics.

Korea focuses only on a few sports.

Not sure why that comparison. :blink:

i am sure it's not right when you say chinese putting big money in winter games. it's not until in the last 20 years. but compare dollar for dollar, it may be a bigger chunk than the canadians.

chinese won't be happy to finish top 3, they want number ONE!

we will see when team canada officials come out and say blah blah blah excuse, we know they are not number ONE calibre country in winter sports. your only excuse should be to admit the failure of the program!

[HotHotHeat]

Does anyone else find it hilarious that people are calling out Olympic athletes for choking on an internet forum?

"If it weren't for my chronic asthma and bifocals I'd have like six gold medals by now."

Calling it "Own the Podium" was a mistake. We came across as cocky and are being put in our place.

Right. And since all 4000 members of this forum aren't NHL hockey players, we'd better stop getting angry when the Flames lose too.

It's not about what I could do at the Olympics, or about how many medals our athletes won, it's about how many medals they've lost - Ones that were gift wrapped and sitting at the finish line.

[Cowperson]

Home advantage is starting to look like a bit of problem.

Across a number of sports it looks as though Canadian athletes have been getting off their game plans, almost being too aggressive - like Hollingsworth and many of the alpine skiers - and crashing and burning at the wrong moment even as they're pushing for the gold the home crowd wants and expects.

They look like they want it almost too much. From my perch, it looks like an almost aggressive overshoot than anything else. Die trying . . . . . and they're dying trying.

Still, these Games have provided some amazing moments of triumph for Canada as well, the tear-inducing Alex Bilodeau story, the Every Canadian Man's dream walk through Whistler, chugging beer moment from Gold Medalist Jon Montgomery, the awesome humbleness of Maelle Ricker and Christine Nesbitt.

I would agree a Canadian men's hockey gold will make any disappointment disappear in a big hurry. No pressure guys!!!

America has been shooting the lights out as though they have home field advantage and, being so close to the border, maybe they do in a way.

Lastly, Own The Podium should also be weighed in terms of world rankings heading into an Olympics and whether the expectations were genuine or hyped. At some point, the athletes do have to deliver if the expectations are genuine.

Cowperson

[Flame On]

If some of the athletes permormed how they should/had been doing then there should have been more medals. Ad to that the odd Canadian dark-horse and the OTP would have been a huge success.
They put the resources in place it's up to individuals to perform and many haven't.

[Pastiche]

The results aren't too surprising outside of long track.

Alpine is always a crap-shoot. Short track sure, should have got one or two more. Ski cross was a let down but hardly something you'd bank on.

The real letdown is with long track. Somebody is going to have to own up to what happened. Weren't the Canadian skaters using the Richmond facility for a while now? Shouldn't they be used to the sticky ice? Maybe that's the problem, maybe the lack of altitude training is why all of them are dying off in the last lap seemingly. Either way, huge disappointment. Need a fundamental look at what went on there.

[valo403]

Right. And since all 4000 members of this forum aren't NHL hockey players, we'd better stop getting angry when the Flames lose too.

It's not about what I could do at the Olympics, or about how many medals our athletes won, it's about how many medals they've lost - Ones that were gift wrapped and sitting at the finish line.

That is absolutely never the case in a competition at this level. Not one single athlete has had a medal gift wrapped and waiting for them, none have won every single event on the world cup or relevant season. This is the absolute best vs. the absolute best, you aren't going to win every single time. There have been disappointments, but the idea that certain athletes had wins gift wrapped is preposterous.

LEt me ask you this, where do you get your expected results from? I'm sure you've intently followed the respective world cup seasons to know who is performing well under certain conditions, who's struggling through injuries, who's peaking, who's slumping etc., or maybe you just go with the hype machine that is CTV. Maybe that has something to do with it.

[troutman]

Our attitude of accepting 'top three' will prevent us from ever becoming a powerhouse.



Canada is not going to be a powerhouse, as more nations start training in winter sports. It's simply a numbers game, and we are a small country. This could be our peak, as other nations catch-up to us.

[return to the red]

Every nation has had upsets and disappointments. Do you think Vonn was ever expected to Crash and not medal at all in one of her races, or third for that matter?

What about Shani Davis not taking the gold in an event he was favoured to win by a long shot?

As Canadians we simply focus on our own athletes without realizing that other countries have had disappointments in these games as well. To think that strictly OUR athletes are the only ones to fail at these games is very narrow sighted.

[JayP]

Not sure how much of an advantage that really is...

History says it's worth about 3-4 more medals than expected on average.

Blaming the pressure of being the home country is just an excuse when athletes underperform.

[peter12]

Canada is not going to be a powerhouse, as more nations start training in winter sports. It's simply a numbers game, and we are a small country. This could be our peak, as other nations catch-up to us.

Hah, meanwhile Norway has 12 medals and a population of 4.8 million. The 1000m speedskating final is a perfect case in point regarding Canada's perpetual chokejob. Our athletes are obviously not training hard or often enough. The Koreans were simply better strategic skaters.

[return to the red]

Just want to give a heads up for all those thinking that Canadian women are expected to win Gold in womens curling. China are the defending world Champions and Sweden took the Gold in 2006. A bronze for Canada would be a success let alone anything higher.

[troutman]

Hah, meanwhile Norway has 12 medals and a population of 4.8 million. The 1000m speedskating final is a perfect case in point regarding Canada's perpetual chokejob. Our athletes are obviously not training hard or often enough. The Koreans were simply better strategic skaters.

Hah? Most of Norway's medals are in nordic skiing, a sport not very many countries concentrate on.

Trust me, Canada's winter olympic medal counts are only going to get worse as more nations practice the fringe sports we are successful in now.

[valo403]

Hah, meanwhile Norway has 12 medals and a population of 4.8 million. The 1000m speedskating final is a perfect case in point regarding Canada's perpetual chokejob. Our athletes are obviously not training hard or often enough. The Koreans were simply better strategic skaters.

Just a coincidence that Norway has a national passion for cross-country, biathalon and long track, all events that have multiple medals associated with them, right?

[JustAnotherGuy]

I am really sick of you posters who are moaning about the Canadian athletes. How much have you done for our Canadian athletes? Are you out there helping the sport? Are you? Come on. Tell me.

I will assume you are not. I will assume you are not doing anything to assist the athletes. Then seriously. You should be ashamed. You are the choke artist. Stop sitting at home and being a big bitch about. Instead stand up and be a proud Canadian.

Jerks.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Hah, meanwhile Norway has 12 medals and a population of 4.8 million. The 1000m speedskating final is a perfect case in point regarding Canada's perpetual chokejob. Our athletes are obviously not training hard or often enough. The Koreans were simply better strategic skaters.

One advantage a country like Norway has is that it is physically small compared to Canada. It makes it easier to for their population to have access to their top athletic facilities.

[peter12]

One advantage a country like Norway has is that it is physically small compared to Canada. It makes it easier to for their population to have access to their top athletic facilities.

See that's a good point.

[Jason14h]

I am really sick of you posters who are moaning about the Canadian athletes. How much have you done for our Canadian athletes? Are you out there helping the sport? Are you? Come on. Tell me.

I will assume you are not. I will assume you are not doing anything to assist the athletes. Then seriously. You should be ashamed. You are the choke artist. Stop sitting at home and being a big bitch about. Instead stand up and be a proud Canadian.


Where do you think the government funding for facilities and training come from?

[Textcritic]

I am really sick of you posters who are moaning about the Canadian athletes. How much have you done for our Canadian athletes? Are you out there helping the sport? Are you? Come on. Tell me.
"The more I 'beard', the more my beard contributes to Canadian athletes."

[Timbo]

Could someone post the events where we are or were guaranteed to medal?

Because last time I looked we have not won every event prior to the olympics. Good results yes... Leading in world cup points yes... but that does not equate into winning every time or guarantee a win at any particular time.

In so far as OTP... if it has engaged athletes, sponsers, spectators and future olympians it is a win.

If it is below TSN's /CTV's hype expectations well... screw them

[JustAnotherGuy]

Where do you think the government funding for facilities and training come from?

And you think that is enough of a contribution that you can make to your countries athletes? How much does that work to? About $10 from you? Nice effort.

I am talking to the people who are moaning and whining about our athletes. They talk about the athlete choking. Not trying hard enough. When the poster is not contributing to the cause enough. Why aren't they out there cheering on the sport? Volunteering at events. etc etc etc

[tkflames]

And you think that is enough of a contribution that you can make to your countries athletes? How much does that work to? About $10 from you? Nice effort.

I am talking to the people who are moaning and whining about our athletes. They talk about the athlete choking. Not trying hard enough. When the poster is not contributing to the cause enough. Why aren't they out there cheering on the sport? Volunteering at events. etc etc etc

I am as patriotic as the next Canadian and agree with your point regarding supporting the Olympics the other 3.5 years. However, this like any government spending program should be evaluated by the public (just like Education, Health Care etc.). It is our duty to form opinions and vote based on those opinions, that is part of a democrazy. Living in Vancouver, if these games don't break even, could be burdened with government debt for a long time (much like Montreal). Your "$10...Nice Effort" comment is out of line.

SUMMARY: It is our democratic responsibility not only to evaluate the OTP program, but also the value/cost-benefit of hosting the Olympics.

[valo403]

I am as patriotic as the next Canadian and agree with your point regarding supporting the Olympics the other 3.5 years. However, this like any government spending program should be evaluated by the public (just like Education, Health Care etc.). It is our duty to form opinions and vote based on those opinions, that is part of a democrazy. Living in Vancouver, if these games don't break even, could be burdened with government debt for a long time (much like Montreal). Your "$10...Nice Effort" comment is out of line.

SUMMARY: It is our democratic responsibility not only to evaluate the OTP program, but also the value/cost-benefit of hosting the Olympics.

Canadian medals and the Vancouver games breaking even are completely different things

[VladtheImpaler]

And you think that is enough of a contribution that you can make to your countries athletes? How much does that work to? About $10 from you? Nice effort.

I am talking to the people who are moaning and whining about our athletes. They talk about the athlete choking. Not trying hard enough. When the poster is not contributing to the cause enough. Why aren't they out there cheering on the sport? Volunteering at events. etc etc etc

Why? These people chose to pursue a sport/lifestyle funded with my tax dollars - any taxpayer has every right to bitch and moan about their performance. There are two issues here - one is the philosophical question of whether taxpayers should sustain amateur sports, and the other of whether I am interested enough in any of these sports to do anything else. Personally, I am not, but as long as I fund them, I can complain about their performance.

[old-fart]

I don't think these games have much hope of breaking even, nor do I think Canada has much hope of meeting the lofty medal guesses of some of the media outlets and the "own the podium" program.

[Textcritic]

Update: The COC officially concedes (http://olympics.thestar.com/2010/article/768311--canadian-olympic-officials-lower-medal-expectations), and admits that Canada will be hard pressed to meet the original lofty expectations set by the Own the Podium programme.

[Yamer]

Hmmm, the article seems to say that we intended to finish on top.

Really? When did this happen? I was honestly thinking that 'Own the Podium' meant at least a top 3 finish. I don't think that will happen either, but I also don't believe that we were expected/expecting to win these Games.

To me, the Games have been a disappointment so far. Tough to see so many Canadians have an 'off day' on home soil.

The Van Sun thought we were gonna win 39 medals? Wow.

[FurnaceFace]

Did I hear correctly OTP cost "us" $120m? Something like $4 per Canadian? This seems like such a tiny number to me to fund a fairly large number of athletes. I'd be curious how much Shaun White's Red Bull half pipe cost to make and how much funding he alone would have received. I bet it's something close to 10% of the entire OTP budget. I'm sure he's the big exception but it's still hard to compete with things like that. Or Korean athletes who get a salary for life winning a gold, that's pretty intense motivation.

[GirlySports]

Hard to blame an athlete who falls just short in a sport measured by hundredths of a seconds. Hollingworth made a small error and it costed her a medal. It's unfortunate and understandable.

But when alpine skiers and speedskating men are not even in the top 15 and losing by MINUTES, that's a choke.

[Pastiche]

Pretty flimsy investment of public funds for elite athletes. How did Canada's record showing in Turin affect your daily life? Were you healthier, smarter, more productive, more civically engaged or did you (like me) forget about the medal count within a week of the end of the Turin Olympics?

[Pastiche]

Hard to blame an athlete who falls just short in a sport measured by hundredths of a seconds. Hollingworth made a small error and it costed her a medal. It's unfortunate and understandable.

But when alpine skiers and speedskating men are not even in the top 15 and losing by MINUTES, that's a choke.
Laugh, minutes?

[united]

OTP has spent $117 million on athlete recruitment, medical support teams, international training camps and high-tech equipment since 2004. The federal government paid for $66 million of the plan, while the Vancouver organizing committee covered most of the remainder.
http://www.ctvolympics.ca/news-centre/newsid=29629.html#own+the+podium+blueprint+canadia n+teams+plan

[Super Nintendo Chalmers]

Hmmm, the article seems to say that we intended to finish on top.

Really? When did this happen? I was honestly thinking that 'Own the Podium' meant at least a top 3 finish.

http://www.ownthepodium2010.com/About/

1. Podium Performance at Olympic and Paralympic Games
Winter

Place first in the total medal count at the 2010 Olympic Winter Games

[FurnaceFace]

Hmmm, the article seems to say that we intended to finish on top.

Really? When did this happen? I was honestly thinking that 'Own the Podium' meant at least a top 3 finish. I don't think that will happen either, but I also don't believe that we were expected/expecting to win these Games.


Sadly, it actually did intend for us to finish first at these games.

http://www.ownthepodium2010.com/About/


Vision
For Canada to be a world leader in high-performance sport.

Mission
To lead the development of Canadian sports to achieve sustainable podium performances at the Olympic and Paralympic Games.

Our Goals
1. Podium Performance at Olympic and Paralympic Games
Winter

* Place first in the total medal count at the 2010 Olympic Winter Games
* Place in the top three in the gold medal count at the 2010 Paralympic Winter Games

Summer

* Place in the top 12 nations in medal count at the 2012 Olympic Games
* Place in the top eight in the gold medal count at the 2012 Paralympic Games

2. System Development

Own the Podium with its partners will strengthen national policy, programs, the sport delivery system and commitment to excellence for winter and summer high-performance sport.

[The Yen Man]

I don't see why Canada's performance should come as any surprise. I've always expected Canada to be near the bottom compared to ther 1st world countries, and they'll continue to be so. It partly has to do with our population size, and partly to do with how important Canadians view sports when it comes to national pride.

A lot of first world nations (the US, Australia, Germany, China, Korea, etc) deem success in international sporting events as great national pride, and their governments will pour tons and tons of money into it (in terms of training and incentives to win for athletes)

Bottom line is, in relative terms, it sucks to be a Canadian amateur sportsperson compared to a lot of other 1st world nations because of the money their respective countries are willing to pour into their sporting programs. We, as Canadians, have deemed amateur sports not very important, and thus have allocated smaller amounts of money to fund athletes when compared to these other nations. It's not right or wrong, it's just how it is.

[HotHotHeat]

That is absolutely never the case in a competition at this level. Not one single athlete has had a medal gift wrapped and waiting for them, none have won every single event on the world cup or relevant season. This is the absolute best vs. the absolute best, you aren't going to win every single time. There have been disappointments, but the idea that certain athletes had wins gift wrapped is preposterous.

LEt me ask you this, where do you get your expected results from? I'm sure you've intently followed the respective world cup seasons to know who is performing well under certain conditions, who's struggling through injuries, who's peaking, who's slumping etc., or maybe you just go with the hype machine that is CTV. Maybe that has something to do with it.

Do you feel better about yourself when you get on the condescending train and just roll? Your entire second paragraph is from the highest perch possible. Better yet, you sound like Stewie from Family guy. CP is getting terrible for this.

As for the rest of your post, agree to disagree. When you fall down during Ski Cross going over a jump with no one around you, that's losing a medal. When you go into the Skeleton finals with the best time and finish out of a medal position on your home track, that's losing a medal. When you have 2 Canadian skaters in the finals for 1000 m short track and place 4th and 5th, well, that's just flat out embarrassingly pathetic.

[Pastiche]

Health Care
Defence
Foreign Aid
Education
Homeless programs
Infrastructure
Pay down debt
Cancer research
Skeleton funding

I believe the official name of skeleton funding is:

The Helping Jon Montgomery get Drunk and Laid Fund

[Yamer]

http://www.ownthepodium2010.com/About/


[/LIST]

Yikes.

Thanks. I guess? :confused:

[FurnaceFace]

Hard to blame an athlete who falls just short in a sport measured by hundredths of a seconds. Hollingworth made a small error and it costed her a medal. It's unfortunate and understandable.

But when alpine skiers and speedskating men are not even in the top 15 and losing by MINUTES, that's a choke.

The only Athletes who I would perhaps consider chokes are Witherspoon and Morrison...and I think Witherspoon had his true choke at the Turin games. I don't recall another "choke job" of these Olympics. Mistakes are made by our athletes and mistakes have been made by other countries too. How about the Korea speedskaters who had all three podium positions only to have them take each other out and only end up with one? Is that a choke job? Guess it depends on your definition.

I also think it's got to be pretty freaking tough to have a nation wanting Gold and nothing else. Look at yesterday, how many know Groves won a silver? She got beat by a world class Olympic record performance. I suspect that got lost in the crappy hockey results by many.

[MelBridgeman]

Why? These people chose to pursue a sport/lifestyle funded with my tax dollars - any taxpayer has every right to bitch and moan about their performance. There are two issues here - one is the philosophical question of whether taxpayers should sustain amateur sports, and the other of whether I am interested enough in any of these sports to do anything else. Personally, I am not, but as long as I fund them, I can complain about their performance.

I wonder what their performance are like in the Athletes Village? Maybe we can save some face in that aspect

[Wish They Could Win]

Ah, DownGoesBrown with a beauty:

DownGoesBrown

OK, plan B: Borrow the podium from the Americans, stash it in the back of the garage, and never give it back.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

I wonder what their performance are like in the Athletes Village? Maybe we can save some face in that aspect

We could possibly find out in nine months.

[JustAnotherGuy]

I am as patriotic as the next Canadian and agree with your point regarding supporting the Olympics the other 3.5 years. However, this like any government spending program should be evaluated by the public (just like Education, Health Care etc.). It is our duty to form opinions and vote based on those opinions, that is part of a democrazy. Living in Vancouver, if these games don't break even, could be burdened with government debt for a long time (much like Montreal). Your "$10...Nice Effort" comment is out of line.

SUMMARY: It is our democratic responsibility not only to evaluate the OTP program, but also the value/cost-benefit of hosting the Olympics.

How is my comment about $10 being out of line? How much do you think each individual person's tax money is going towards our athletes?

[JustAnotherGuy]

Why? These people chose to pursue a sport/lifestyle funded with my tax dollars - any taxpayer has every right to bitch and moan about their performance. There are two issues here - one is the philosophical question of whether taxpayers should sustain amateur sports, and the other of whether I am interested enough in any of these sports to do anything else. Personally, I am not, but as long as I fund them, I can complain about their performance.

My point is. We should be cheering our athletes not complaining about them.

Anyway, I think I made my point. I sat back and tried to not say anything as so many posters talked down my country's athletes. I am proud of each of them for the effort and the commitment.

Did anybody watch the girl crying because she let down her country because she only won silver? Breaks my heart to see that. She should be proud that she won a silver for her country.

[valo403]

Do you feel better about yourself when you get on the condescending train and just roll? Your entire second paragraph is from the highest perch possible. Better yet, you sound like Stewie from Family guy. CP is getting terrible for this.

As for the rest of your post, agree to disagree. When you fall down during Ski Cross going over a jump with no one around you, that's losing a medal. When you go into the Skeleton finals with the best time and finish out of a medal position on your home track, that's losing a medal. When you have 2 Canadian skaters in the finals for 1000 m short track and place 4th and 5th, well, that's just flat out embarrassingly pathetic.

When it comes to dealing with people like you, yes I do.

[JiriHrdina]

My point is. We should be cheering our athletes not complaining about them.



When they do well we should cheer, but when they don't deliver - why are they above criticism?

[fredr123]

Two things have bothered me about our athletes' performances thus far:

1. I find it hard to believe all of our athletes are leaving it all out there and giving their best performance. I don't have any numbers whatsoever to back this up but I bet the number of athletes whose scores at these Olympics are anywhere near the neighborhood of their personal bests is pretty low. I know a few speed skaters who train at the Oval with many of our Olympic speed skaters. These people look up to our Olympic athletes and aspire to be in their position soon. They shake their head at the poor performances we've seen so far. It's not like the gold medalists are setting world records or anything yet our athletes are not only falling short of that mark but they aren't even approaching the level they've been competing at even in the recent past. Sure, you're allowed to have a bad day once in a while. The number of athletes who seem to have had a bad day on the biggest day of their careers is cause for concern.

2. Manuel Osborne-Paradis, Pierre Lueders and others whom I have come to know from the kind words of Donald Sutherland over the past couple months have been pretty disappointing. I doubt they personally had anything to do with becoming part of the CTV hype machine but it would have been great for at least one of those ads to be more than just an ironic reminder of unrealistic expectations in hindsight.

[worth]

Hey, it could be worse. The Russians projected they were going to win 40 medals at these Olympics. Vitaly Mutko must have hit the vodka a little too hard.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/sports/2010-02/04/c_13162924.htm

People busting on the government for funding sport in this coutry, I would normally agree with you. I don't support funds for private leagues, such as the NHL or CFL. I don't think any government money from the Federal or Provincial levels of government should go into building new stadiums, including the Flames or Stampeders (I'm ok with civic funding if the people agree to it as it creates jobs and generally makes the lives of those who attend games happier), these are private organizations who make a lot of money, and should be able to raise funds themselves for improvements.

However, in this instance we have amateur athletes competing on the international stage. I don't particularly see the problem with spending $60 million out of $226 billion on these athletes. It allows them to follow their dreams, just like Tucan Sam, and gives us all something to cheer about for a couple of weeks.

If the government didn't spend any money on arts, or sport or anything "fun", this place might be even more boring. At least we can get excited on an international level for a couple weeks and be proud to be Canadian. If the government didn't spend the money, there would be no amateur program, and we wouldn't have the Olympics or anything to cheer about. This is something that actually does affect us. Sure, we all forget about the medal count after it's all over, but for those two weeks, we get to experience something special. And it's something every single Canadian can feel! And that's fantastic! With the amount of apathy that is around these days, it's exciting to see so many Canadians embracing these games.

[Textcritic]

...2. Manuel Osborne-Paradis, Pierre Lueders and others whom I have come to know from the kind words of Donald Sutherland over the past couple months have been pretty disappointing. I doubt they personally had anything to do with becoming part of the CTV hype machine but it would have been great for at least one of those ads to be more than just an ironic reminder of unrealistic expectations in hindsight.

I get what you're alluding to, but Pierre Lueders? One of the most successful bobsleigh drivers in the history of the sport? I hardly think that he fits the image of "unrealistic expectations".

[fredr123]

Forgiveness if this has been covered elsewhere, but does anyone know the rules with respect to private sponsorships of Olympic athletes? We hear all about Shaun White's awesome private half-pipe built for him by Red Bull. Are there no similar opportunities for private companies to support Canadian athletes?

[fredr123]

I get what you're alluding to, but Pierre Lueders? One of the most successful bobsleigh drivers in the history of the sport? I hardly think that he fits the image of "unrealistic expectations".

I realistically expected a medal from one of the most successful bobsleigh drivers in the history of the sport. The four man bobsleigh is still to come so I suppose there's a chance for the podium there.

Agree it's not a flame out on the same scale as Osborne-Paradis.

Edit: Found this from last week on the so-called "CTV Jinx": http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/olympics/vancouver/blog/fourth_place_medal/post/CTV-jinx-strikes-again-Ricker-on-Maltais-out?urn=oly,220052

[Cowperson]

Two things have bothered me about our athletes' performances thus far:

1. I find it hard to believe all of our athletes are leaving it all out there and giving their best performance. I don't have any numbers whatsoever to back this up but I bet the number of athletes whose scores at these Olympics are anywhere near the neighborhood of their personal bests is pretty low. I know a few speed skaters who train at the Oval with many of our Olympic speed skaters. These people look up to our Olympic athletes and aspire to be in their position soon. They shake their head at the poor performances we've seen so far. It's not like the gold medalists are setting world records or anything yet our athletes are not only falling short of that mark but they aren't even approaching the level they've been competing at even in the recent past. Sure, you're allowed to have a bad day once in a while. The number of athletes who seem to have had a bad day on the biggest day of their careers is cause for concern.

2. Manuel Osborne-Paradis, Pierre Lueders and others whom I have come to know from the kind words of Donald Sutherland over the past couple months have been pretty disappointing. I doubt they personally had anything to do with becoming part of the CTV hype machine but it would have been great for at least one of those ads to be more than just an ironic reminder of unrealistic expectations in hindsight.

As I said before, it's possible to explode yourself by trying too hard as well.

You get off your game plan and away from the things that put you in the top tier, concentrating too much on the medals and not enough on the processes that got you there in the first place.

The alpine team, as an example, seems to be really gunning for the medals and are overly aggressive, hence the epic crashes.

Hollingsworth appeared to be in the same boat. Fastest out of the gate and then mistakes she wouldn't make any other day of the week with the gold in sight.

Our man in the ski cross yesterday had a medal wrapped up and wiped out trying for one level higher, getting nothing in the process.

The men's short-track speed skating team, a very experienced pair of brothers, might have been overly aggressive in setting a pace they couldn't sustain the other night.

I won't do the work but it would be interesting to know how many sea level countries have won Olympic medals in Vancouver versus teams that train at altitude like Canada. The slogginess of the ice at sea level versus altitude seems to be a factor in how certain athletes are able to close out a race. It looks - at a glance - that sea level trained athletes are pulling unexpected results out of the hat. You would think altitude-trained athletes would have an advantage but that doesn't seem to be the case in this particular sport.

I've got no complaints about the level of "try" in Canadian athletes. I think that's silly. There does seem to be room to debate whether or not wanting to win too badly has interfered with the processes that got them there in the first place. That looks very real in where Canada is right now.

I'll say it again. If we're spending $117 million now we should double it going forward.

EDIT: Gary Mason with an unusually mature - for him - response to Canada's performance:

http://www.ctvolympics.ca/news-centre/newsid=49183.html?cid=rss

Cowperson

[VladtheImpaler]

I wonder what their performance are like in the Athletes Village? Maybe we can save some face in that aspect

I went on one date with a girl who was on the speedskating team and that was years ago, so, sadly, too small a sample size...

[Ducay]

Alpine = pure chokefest.
Shorttrack = pure chokefest
Longtrack = pure chokefest (compared to what we were expecting)

There are 102 medals in total available in these events, we cant afford to be garbage in them.

[JustAnotherGuy]

When they do well we should cheer, but when they don't deliver - why are they above criticism?

Maybe I am not saying it properly. Some criticism is valid. I am talking about the comments about choking and having no heart etc.

[return to the red]

nm

[OldDutch]

Forgiveness if this has been covered elsewhere, but does anyone know the rules with respect to private sponsorships of Olympic athletes? We hear all about Shaun White's awesome private half-pipe built for him by Red Bull. Are there no similar opportunities for private companies to support Canadian athletes?

In the world of marketing Canada is small fish. We have roughly the same population as California state. Add to it added expense marketing in two languages, or one (but then you lose a province of 8 million due to language laws). Also add that our dollar traditionally does not have much buying power, and our taxes are higher generally than the US.

As you can see the cost becomes not worth it quickly. The US has 10 times the market base, with all the above benefits Canada does not. When you talk about sports like snowboarding, where some but not all people follow, you are really looking at very little money here.

The only exception is hockey to some extent. Almost all Canadians would mortgage their life to see and play hockey. Even then it is probably marginal budget compared to US Football, or Baseball.

Sorry, I am with you, I want a level play field with the Americans and Euros, but it is not going to happen at that level ever.

EDIT: Sorry if you are talking about private Canadian companies only. However, like I said above, I think the market buy back is small, compared to the cost ($100s of millions).

[JiriHrdina]

Maybe I am not saying it properly. Some criticism is valid. I am talking about the comments about choking and having no heart etc.

I agree about having no heart - it's one of the most over-used cliches out there. Are they choking? Perhaps but I tend to agree with Cowperson's assessment that they are pushing TOO hard.

[GirlySports]

ok, it felt like MINUTES to me :D

[JayP]

I agree about having no heart - it's one of the most over-used cliches out there. Are they choking? Perhaps but I tend to agree with Cowperson's assessment that they are pushing TOO hard.

In some cases it's pretty clear they were pushing too hard simply because 2nd place wasn't good enough.

Delbosco (ski cross) is a perfect example of this. He could have easily gone in the second last jump, played it safe, and took his bronze. Instead he took an incredibly tight corner and gave himself his only shot at gold or silver.

Hollingsworth said she did the exact same thing. She was far back from the leader (0.5 seconds going into Heat 4) and her only chance at a gold was having a record breaking type of race. It was a risk and, obviously, it didn't pay off. She could have easily accepted bronze or silver and had a safer run, but it was gold or bust.

Obviously not all of Canada's disappointments are in this class (alpine ski team, short track team, etc.), but there's an important distinction between them.

Everyone loves to parade on about how Canadians accept 2nd place and don't have the fire to win, but they still treat every disappointment exactly the same. I can accept Hollingsworth and Delboso saying silver/bronze isn't good enough and going for broke. I don't accept the alpine team or the men's long track having season's worst showings in the biggest event of their season.

[valo403]

I realistically expected a medal from one of the most successful bobsleigh drivers in the history of the sport. The four man bobsleigh is still to come so I suppose there's a chance for the podium there.

Agree it's not a flame out on the same scale as Osborne-Paradis.

Edit: Found this from last week on the so-called "CTV Jinx": http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/olympics/vancouver/blog/fourth_place_medal/post/CTV-jinx-strikes-again-Ricker-on-Maltais-out?urn=oly,220052

Your expectations of Leuders are way off from the reality of his season. He hasn't finished better than 4th in a WC event all year, with most finishes in the 8-9 range, and his overall rank is 10th. Rush has been grabbing good results, but he fell victim to a difficult track and crashed, that's the nature of the sport. He'll have a chance to redeem himself in the 4-man where he's perfromed well this season. It's difficult to look at past results in the sliding sports though as this track is quite different than any other.

[bcb]

I am really sick of you posters who are moaning about the Canadian athletes. How much have you done for our Canadian athletes? Are you out there helping the sport? Are you? Come on. Tell me.

I will assume you are not. I will assume you are not doing anything to assist the athletes. Then seriously. You should be ashamed. You are the choke artist. Stop sitting at home and being a big bitch about. Instead stand up and be a proud Canadian.

Jerks.

Please, enlighten me, define proud Canadian. These athletes are not folks off the street. They are paid very real public money (plus whatever they receive in private sponsorships) to do nothing but train for four years. They know their competitors, they know the venues and they know what it is like to compete in front of large crowds.

Do I expect a medal in every event? Obviously not. I don't fault a biathalete who finished in 50th spot, who had not hope in hell of reaching the podium.

It's a whole different kettle of fish when a speed skater is ranked number 1 or 2 in the WORLD and ends up in 15th place.

As far as I'm concerned, these athletes are professionals at what they do. I hope Canadians hold them to the same standard as we hold our hockey heroes. Nobody is above criticism!

If this makes me a bad Canadian, then so be it.

[bcb]

And you think that is enough of a contribution that you can make to your countries athletes? How much does that work to? About $10 from you? Nice effort.

I am talking to the people who are moaning and whining about our athletes. They talk about the athlete choking. Not trying hard enough. When the poster is not contributing to the cause enough. Why aren't they out there cheering on the sport? Volunteering at events. etc etc etc

So I should quit my job to volunteer for ourOlympic athletes? If I really wanted to do something heroic for our country, I'd join the military.

[valo403]

Please, enlighten me, define proud Canadian. These athletes are not folks off the street. They are paid very real public money (plus whatever they receive in private sponsorships) to do nothing but train for four years. They know their competitors, they know the venues and they know what it is like to compete in front of large crowds.

Do I expect a medal in every event? Obviously not. I don't fault a biathalete who finished in 50th spot, who had not hope in hell of reaching the podium.

It's a whole different kettle of fish when a speed skater is ranked number 1 or 2 in the WORLD and ends up in 15th place.

As far as I'm concerned, these athletes are professionals at what they do. I hope Canadians hold them to the same standard as we hold our hockey heroes. Nobody is above criticism!

If this makes me a bad Canadian, then so be it.

Has that happened though? I honestly don't know, I'm in the States and have been working 15 hour days, but I was under the impression that the 'choke' jobs a few individuals keep going on about were people finishing 5th or 6th. In Olympic competition that's a single small mistake.

[Flames in 07]

Maybe I am not saying it properly. Some criticism is valid. I am talking about the comments about choking and having no heart etc.

I think they have demonstrated unprecidented 'heart'. They are definitely trying.

However they are through trying choking their a$$es off.

[V]

Has that happened though? I honestly don't know, I'm in the States and have been working 15 hour days, but I was under the impression that the 'choke' jobs a few individuals keep going on about were people finishing 5th or 6th. In Olympic competition that's a single small mistake.

Well, there is Denny Morrison. And we've had countless DNFs from the Alpine team.

[valo403]

Well, there is Denny Morrison. And we've had countless DNFs from the Alpine team.

I don't know that it's fair to count crashes, I mean that's the nature of a sport like downhill skiing.

[edslunch]

What's the point of this thread. We're all disappointed in some of the results so far - but some people here are angry and looking for someone to blame. WTF?

[frostiex]

I think our biggest problem is Drive. I am not sure every where else is. In Calgary, the education systems raises kids with a no drive attitude. They promote kids to be mediocre. Its all about participation, I have heard that so many times. It makes me sick. How can we be raising kids who have no competitive mind set? I suspect every where else in the country have similar education systems. Just hearing so many times the after race interviews shows that. Its the competitiveness in us that promotes improvements. My 9 year old said it best. 2nd is the first looser.:bag:

[Cowperson]

My 9 year old said it best. 2nd is the first looser.:bag:

I hope your nine-year-old can spell "loser." :whistle:

Take a pill everyone, we have a chance to win the most gold medals title in these Olympics.

http://www.cbc.ca/olympics/newsmakers/story/2010/02/23/spo-nmkr-otp-day10.html

Cowperson

[FurnaceFace]

Forgiveness if this has been covered elsewhere, but does anyone know the rules with respect to private sponsorships of Olympic athletes? We hear all about Shaun White's awesome private half-pipe built for him by Red Bull. Are there no similar opportunities for private companies to support Canadian athletes?

I direct you to b2ten.com (http://www.b2ten.com). I was never privy to the exact business people involved however this is a group of high profile Canadian businesspeople who provided private money to support certain athletes who they felt were on the cusp of winning medals.

I also believe The Bombardier family are big supporters and provide private funding...perhaps they are part of B2ten also.

[kirant]

Let's be honest: Who thought a one-time 120 million dollar injection would suddenly make Canada top of the world? Even the program coordinator stated that their goal was going to be a long shot. And in such a short time frame, all they can hope to do is bring up the standards of the few athletes in the competition already. If Canada wasn't any good at an event earlier, what would make it better now? I'll be the first to admit the Alpine team didn't win, but that's a crapshoot all on its own (Most alpine events). I guess I should ask: How much WORSE would Canada have looked had there been no Own the Podium program set in place?

The price tag for this has been ~1 dollar a year from every Canadian in the last four years. I think it will do Canadians well to keep this program going. The fact that this program brings attention to the sports will let younger generations find them more easily, get better funding over time, and THAT would bring Canada over the top in terms of Olympic medals.

tl;dr version: I think we shouldn't be expecting Canada to come out as the Gold Standard after a small injection of money.

[kevman]

I hope your nine-year-old can spell "loser." :whistle:

Take a pill everyone, we have a chance to win the most gold medals title in these Olympics.

http://www.cbc.ca/olympics/newsmakers/story/2010/02/23/spo-nmkr-otp-day10.html

Cowperson

Which, outside of North America, is how the rest of the world ranks the medal count. Look at the US, they have 9 more bronze medals then Canada (10 vs. 1). If "2nd place is the 1st loser" what's 3rd place really worth?

[valo403]

I think our biggest problem is Drive. I am not sure every where else is. In Calgary, the education systems raises kids with a no drive attitude. They promote kids to be mediocre. Its all about participation, I have heard that so many times. It makes me sick. How can we be raising kids who have no competitive mind set? I suspect every where else in the country have similar education systems. Just hearing so many times the after race interviews shows that. Its the competitiveness in us that promotes improvements. My 9 year old said it best. 2nd is the first looser.:bag:

The US education system is virtually identical, how does that fit into your theory?

[FurnaceFace]

It's a whole different kettle of fish when a speed skater is ranked number 1 or 2 in the WORLD and ends up in 15th place.



None of the men are ranked 1 or 2 in the world (link (http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=1756)), Morrison is our highest rank at 4th in the 1500m this year. Given their position in the ranking amongst their peers, I would characterize them as medal hopefuls not medal favourites. Looking at the rankings now I guess I'm not too surprised at the lack of medals on the mens side. I am disappointed Morrison didn't finish better, I was expecting him to be close.

Perhaps some of our expectations are skewed because of the media and how they like to hype the athletes before the event and drum up excitement. Yesterday during the aerial qualifying I found them hyping our athletes and then almost as an aside they made a comment like The Chinese are powerhouses right now, have swept the podium in previous events, and could have sent 6 athletes to jump if they were allowed. Given this little nugget of info my expectations of our aerial team have decreased. I'm now hoping we get a medal not expecting one like I was before.


As far as I'm concerned, these athletes are professionals at what they do. I hope Canadians hold them to the same standard as we hold our hockey heroes. Nobody is above criticism!


To me criticism is acceptable IF it's constructive. The impression I'm left with from a number of the posts in this thread are more of complaints along the lines of "_____ sucks!" and "____ choked!" There is nothing useful in that other than perhaps those who take delight in running other people down (bcb, in case it's not obvious, I'm not suggesting you're one of those). Making those sorts of comments about sports most of us likely barely follow outside of the odd time is unfair.

We don't really know what it's like to be under that pressure and expectation. most of us don't have jobs where our actions are watched so closely and we're judged by our peers and the public to such a high standard. I guess I'm in the "don't comment until you've walked a mile in their shoes" camp.

[frostiex]

The US education system is virtually identical, how does that fit into your theory?
Well obviously, there are some difference. What I am saying is in Calgary, I hear all the time "it's ok, you did your best!" Well, it just showed its not OK, you just lost! I am not saying you have to win every single time, but the mentality must be getting better each and every time. Accidents and misfortune happens, but it cannot be your main reason. I understand too much pressure is no good, but our system is too relaxed. Look at our underachieving flames...

[Cowperson]

Well obviously, there are some difference. What I am saying is in Calgary, I hear all the time "it's ok, you did your best!" Well, it just showed its not OK, you just lost! I am not saying you have to win every single time, but the mentality must be getting better each and every time. Accidents and misfortune happens, but it cannot be your main reason. I understand too much pressure is no good, but our system is too relaxed. Look at our underachieving flames...

You know, you should really look back at past Olympics and see what Canada's medal totals used to be to truly understand what a "you did your best" mentality really looks like.

To say we are light years ahead of the 1970's and 1980's and even the 1990's would be an epic understatement.

Cowperson

[Infamous1]

Canada appears to have overachieved in 2006 in the medal count and perhaps gave the Own the Podium people a false sense of how great we could be with some more money. How many medals in 2006 were completely out of no where type upsets? I'm guessing quite a lot more than this year where only our contenders are getting any medals. Also last time, we had a few athletes with multiple medals which helped.

[frostiex]

You know, you should really look back at past Olympics and see what Canada's medal totals used to be to truly understand what a "you did your best" mentality really looks like.

To say we are light years ahead of the 1970's and 1980's and even the 1990's would be an epic understatement.

Cowperson

I guess we should stop bickering about our flames too, since we never used to have a Hockey team let alone talk about winning Lord Stanley's Grail.

[JayP]

I hope your nine-year-old can spell "loser." :whistle:

Take a pill everyone, we have a chance to win the most gold medals title in these Olympics.

http://www.cbc.ca/olympics/newsmakers/story/2010/02/23/spo-nmkr-otp-day10.html

Cowperson

Great link.

Here's a good link that still projects us to win the most golds (winning ~7 more) based on the predictions of a bunch of the major North American sporting news sources:

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2010/02/vancouver-medal-count-projections-day.html

[valo403]

Well obviously, there are some difference. What I am saying is in Calgary, I hear all the time "it's ok, you did your best!" Well, it just showed its not OK, you just lost! I am not saying you have to win every single time, but the mentality must be getting better each and every time. Accidents and misfortune happens, but it cannot be your main reason. I understand too much pressure is no good, but our system is too relaxed. Look at our underachieving flames...

That's funny, I hear the in the US all the time too. But clearly that's the root cause :rolleyes:

[Flame On]

What is it something like 18 4-5th place finishes. If even half those get a medal we're in a lot better position.
OTP put the resources in place, at some point individuals have to have some finish.