Luge athlete killed in Whistler during training

[HotHotHeat]

Holy wow....Just saw this on TV. If I had to speculate, I'd say he's dead.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/12/AR2010021202770.html?hpid=topnews

He was going 143 km/hr when he hit the post. Easily the most graphic thing I've ever seen on TV.

[Kybosh]

Yeah, I also saw it. I really hope he's ok but it did not look good.

[Barnes]

Surviving this would have been a miracle. It has always been regarded as a very dangerous track.

Hope the athlete is ok.

[Jesse834]

I would be shocked if he lives.

Terrible Accident. Very sad.

[HOOT]

Did anyone see this? Probably the sickest accident I have ever seen in sports, I actually stood up and screamed when it happened I was so surprised on what happened..

It happened in corner 16 (fastest part of the track) when he was going 144KPH he went flying off the track flying right into a medal pole to the side of the track.

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/olympics/vancouver/luge/news?slug=ap-lug-lugecrash&prov=ap&type=lgns

[Resolute 14]

Life threatening condition according to the AP/CP story.

[fredr123]

My wife called me from home to tell me about this. Nasty, nasty crash. They were performing CPR on him on the scene.

[Jesse834]

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=86979

[Barnes]

Earlier in the day, gold-medal favorite Armin Zoeggeler of Italy crashed, losing control of his sled on Curve 11. Zoeggeler came off his sled and held it with his left arm to keep it from smashing atop his body. He slid on his back down several curves before coming to a stop and walking away.

Training days in Whistler have been crash-filled. A Romanian woman was briefly knocked unconscious and at least four Americans — Chris Mazdzer on Wednesday, Megan Sweeney on Thursday and both Tony Benshoof and Bengt Walden on Friday in the same training session where Zoeggeler wrecked — have had serious trouble just getting down the track.

"I think they are pushing it a little too much," Australia's Hannah Campbell-Pegg said Thursday night after she nearly lost control in training. "To what extent are we just little lemmings that they just throw down a track and we're crash-test dummies? I mean, this is our lives."


http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/35369187/ns/sports-olympic_sports/

[Scoopdogg]

OMG, I just saw the video of the accident. I very much doubt he makes it out alive after that. A very tragic start to the olympics.

[HOOT]

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=86979

Not very many people read that forum anyways.

[GoinAllTheWay]

Wow, that guy was moving........sure hope he is ok but not sure how he could be.

[HotHotHeat]

He was killed

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/vancouver2010/news/2010/02/12/12857041-qmi.html

[Resolute 14]

Training days in Whistler have been crash-filled. A Romanian woman was briefly knocked unconscious and at least four Americans — Chris Mazdzer on Wednesday, Megan Sweeney on Thursday and both Tony Benshoof and Bengt Walden on Friday in the same training session where Zoeggeler wrecked — have had serious trouble just getting down the track.

As much as the Australian luger may have a point about people putting themselves at risk, this statement really points to a design flaw in the Vancouver track.

[stang]

Holy I saw it on Youtube...

ANd its already gone from Youtube

[Jesse834]

Since I have no idea how to embed videos here is a video of the crash.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UrTF5CsgiI

[sureLoss]

Reports are surfacing that the Luger has died

horrific start to these games
http://bit.ly/c8tiZu

[HOOT]

Holy I saw it on Youtube...

ANd its already gone from Youtube


I should have something in ~10 min.

[HotHotHeat]

I want to stress how graphic that video is. It's been an hour since I watched it and I still feel sick.

[3 Justin 3]

Where can I see this?

That is horrible.

[HOOT]

I want to stress how graphic that video is. It's been an hour since I watched it and I still feel sick.

Agreed! Youtube is going to be taking down videos so if anyone wants to download a copy you can from my site.

It should be up in about 10 minutes.

[Jayems]

What a sad, sad incident.

If it's as dangerous as all the other athletes are saying, why on earth are they still competing? I'd be shocked if they continue these luging events this olympics.

[stang]

HOOT should have it up in 5 min...

Better be quick cause they are coming down FAST

[PowerPlayoffs06]

Holy crap. Best wishes to the Georgian luger for a recovery. Wow...

[Scoopdogg]

If you go to ctvolympics.ca you should be able to catch it there, although it is very tragic and hard to watch.

[Jayems]

Holy crap. Best wishes to the Georgian luger for a recovery. Wow...

He died.

[HOOT]

HOOT should have it up in 5 min...

Better be quick cause they are coming down FAST

I'm just going to host it on my site so youtube can't touch it. :D

5-6 minutes...

[North East Goon]

He died.

That hasnt been totally confirmed yet.

[photon]

Sorry for moving this thread all over the place, I apparently can't click or read properly today.

[Jayems]

That hasnt been totally confirmed yet.

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/vancouver2010/news/2010/02/12/12857041-qmi.html

[stang]

Google his name in "News" and its all over that he has passed

[HOOT]

Here is the video...sorry for the extremely large file I didn't have time to scale it down and youtube won't allow the video.

http://www.shaunhuot.com/MVI_5237.avi

[stang]

Hope you have good hosting HOOT

[Russic]

Jesus that's sad. Poor guy.

[Barnes]

They just showed it again on CTV and they are saying life threatening injuries still. The Sun is the only one reporting that he died.

I will emphasize as well how disturbing the video is. I have seen it twice and won't be watching it again.

[pylon]

Here is the video...sorry for the extremely large file I didn't have time to scale it down and youtube won't allow the video.

http://www.shaunhuot.com/MVI_5237.avi


um.... no

[HOOT]

Hope you have good hosting HOOT

Seems to be getting between 300-400kbs

[HotHotHeat]

Also worth mentioning - there was another athlete knocked unconscious earlier in the day. What sort of track is this? Clearly there are design flaws.

[HOOT]

um.... no

ummm...no, what?

[dj_patm]

Isn't there like, rules to how dangerous the track can be?

Wow. Thats the second serious accident in training runs already... Someone went a little crazy with the difficulty maybe...

[stang]

There is also a video of him if you type his name into youtube...hasnt been taken down yet

[pylon]

ummm...no, what?


I clicked it and got about 1000 pages of gobbly .

[HOOT]

I clicked it and got about 1000 pages of gobbly .

It's an AVI file and should be downloaded so not sure why you are getting pages of stuff.

edit: When I click on the link on my other laptop it just starts to download, so I would check your settings because it should just download and open in Windows Media Player or whatever your default is.

[Russic]

Just watched it. Holy crap that is brutal. Extremely surprised CTV would even air that ... it's pretty clear that he was dead immediately.

[stang]

Worked for me

[dj_patm]

Why has no one showed this clip when I watch?

[pylon]

Must be my computer at work. Here is a link, no way the guy survives that. Very brutal.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/akdobbins/nodar-kumaritashvili-luge-crash/

[GreatWhiteEbola]

No issues with the DL.

That seems odd that there would be large support columns just off the track. If there is one thing that can be taken from NASCAR...

[Staypuft]

Why has no one showed this clip when I watch?

I don't think the Treehouse network has news programming.

[North East Goon]

Get the tracks ready at COP, Luge and skeleton events might have to be held here.

[pylon]

Also on a side note.... absolutely brutal design to have all those steel posts set up right after a corner exit.

[HOOT]

Get the tracks ready at COP, Luge and skeleton events might have to be held here.

Really?

[Russic]

I wonder what they'll do ... that seems like an incredibly dangerous design flaw. I suppose there's a risk with any event at that speed, but it just seems wrong.

[mikey_the_redneck]

The video was definately not pretty but it wasn't gory(sp) or anything..

Totally stupid that those posts are not heavily padded...big time design flaw.

[iggypop]

Wow, that is hard to watch. RIP

[MJM]

They showed that video on CBC wwhen I was eating my lunch with some coworkers. I'm pretty upset they didn't even give a warning that what they were about to show was graphic. I wish I hadn't seen it, and there's some people I work with who are pretty distraught over being shown that by CBC without warning.

All it said was there was a live breaking story of a luge accident, and than showed the run (no warning about what you were about to see).

[Peanut]

Also on a side note.... absolutely brutal design to have all those steel posts set up right after a corner exit.

Yeah, this is the part that really baffles me too. I get that a person doing 140km/h could fly a far distance through the air, but to put the poles like, 5 feet from the track?! Just doesn't make sense.

[HOOT]

I wonder what they'll do ... that seems like an incredibly dangerous design flaw. I suppose there's a risk with any event at that speed, but it just seems wrong.

I've heard that they can build the walls up higher. I bet they weren't built up as much so that cameras could see them exit the most exciting corner in the sport, just turns out excitement equals death.

Not a great way to get the games under way for sure!

[dj_patm]

What a STUPID desgin.

I hope whoever okay'd having huge metal beams right beside a corner exit should be fired. They have programs that tell you how fast lugers would be going down at certain points and where they will have problems and they just figured that corner was a good option?

STUPID

[nfotiu]

Also on a side note.... absolutely brutal design to have all those steel posts set up right after a corner exit.

Awful. Seems like it would be a pretty easy fix to put up a wall of padding between the tracks and posts though.

Kind of awkward and sad to hold a huge party tonight in the face of a tragedy that looks to be 100% fault of the organizers.

[Peanut]

They showed that video on CBC wwhen I was eating my lunch with some coworkers. I'm pretty upset they didn't even give a warning that what they were about to show was graphic. I wish I hadn't seen it, and there's some people I work with who are pretty distraught over being shown that by CBC without warning.

All it said was there was a live breaking story of a luge accident, and than showed the run (no warning about what you were about to see).

They gave lots of warnings before they showed it on CTV, but it didn't make it any easier to watch. :whaa:

[pylon]

Really?


We were the backup site for Salt Lake City, so I am guessing the same would apply.

[Brad Marsh]

This is a serious black cloud over these games.

There is no way that could have been considered reasonably safe. And this has nothing to do with hind-sight.

Unpadded steel beams at the exit of a major turn on a luge course? Come on. That's not right.

RIP


Edit: I'm acutally feeling really angry about this. It's completely unacceptable. There is no way something like should have happened. Completely preventable and completely negligent IMO. Shame on Van-OC!

[stang]

http://www.newser.com/article/d9dqrh380/olympic-official-with-direct-knowledge-of-crash-says-mens-olympic-luger-has-died.html

confirmed

[TimSJ]

unreal, how can they have those pillars right there.

Terrible way to start a great two weeks of sport.

[Methanolic]

Horrible

My heart goes out to his family, they must be devestated and livid at the same time.

Idiots had 7 freakin years to get this right, they decide that it's ok to have huge columns with no barriers coming off a turn??????


....I hope they do shut it down and tell C.O.P. TO GET READY!!!

[North East Goon]

We were the backup site for Salt Lake City, so I am guessing the same would apply.

I am certain COP is the back-up for these tracks.

[Jesse834]

It breaks my heart. What is supposed to be one of the happiest moments in this kids life, and his families to have his life taken away like that.

[dj_patm]

If that would've happend during an event then spectators would've most likely been injured as well.

They have to either move the events to Calgary or get rid of those beams. I don't think the athleates will go down unless something changes. I know I wouldn't.

He has died. Confirmed by CTV.

[Ducay]

Gah, didn't hear about this till I saw the frontpage article on CBC.ca with a pic of him getting CPR.

I'll assume that they'll change that asap.

Also, f-k Van-OC for making it so dammed dangerous. Outrageous when you see how many accidents they've had in training thus far

[North East Goon]

http://www.newser.com/article/d9dqrh380/olympic-official-with-direct-knowledge-of-crash-says-mens-olympic-luger-has-died.html

confirmed

just terrible R.I.P.

[Ducay]

Anyone have a diagram of the track or a pic of the exit? I don't really want to watch the vids or look at the crash pics.

[MJM]

They gave lots of warnings before they showed it on CTV, but it didn't make it any easier to watch. :whaa:

Maybe they did on CBC too, but I didn't hear it. Either way, there's no need to show the whole video of him hitting the pole.

[Delthefunky]

I'm no engineer... but this is borderline negligence!

[La Flames Fan]

Oh man, that is just terrible. God, if they had even put up wire fencing he'd still be alive.

I am torn if it was totally a freak accident or something that could have been foreseen.

[Bring_Back_Oliwa]

MOD edit: Grow up.

[Komskies]

The download link isn't working for me either. It's probably just my firewall at work blocking it but I can't get the download started. And unfortunately all streaming content is blocked.

[Peanut]

Even the photo on the Calgary Herald article is just sickening.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/2010wintergames/Georgian+luger+dies+after+horrifying+crash+Whistle r+track/2556569/story.html

[Peanut]

Oh man, that is just terrible. God, if they had even put up wire fencing he'd still be alive.

I am torn if it was totally a freak accident or something that could have been foreseen.

I would say foreseen/preventable.

[dj_patm]

Anyone think this could go down as Criminal Negligence?

Easily a lawsuit under professional liability. There is no way that should be allowed.

[HOOT]

I know people want to blame the design and all that but IMO this is a freak accident. How many different athletes, in how many different sports have gone down that track since it was built? Hundreds? If none of them brought it up as a concern why would the people who built it be concerned?

I just find it hard to blame one person or group of people when that track had been tested so much. Horrible, horrible accident but I don't think anyone is to blame.

[FiftyBelow]

Whats even more worrisome is the fact that there have been several crashes on the course... so clearly its not just that corner. They have to seriously consider shutting it down and relocating the events. Definitely tragic news on the eve of the games. I can't even imagine what his family is going through and how the other athletes feel.

[OILFAN #81]

RIP. Such a tragic event for a 21 year old and his family. I cringed when I saw the crash take place a few hours ago.

[La Flames Fan]

I would say foreseen/preventable.

That's my initial thought as well...this is a horrible cloud over these games.

[photon]

I clicked it and got about 1000 pages of gobbly .

The download link isn't working for me either. It's probably just my firewall at work blocking it but I can't get the download started. And unfortunately all streaming content is blocked.

Just right click on the link and choose "Save As..." and save it as a file first.

[Russic]

Anyone have a diagram of the track or a pic of the exit? I don't really want to watch the vids or look at the crash pics.

I took a screenshot from HOOT's movie ... doesn't show the body (just the luge). You can see the turn at the back. It looks damn near 90 degrees. He came from the top corner all the way into the opposite corner and was launched off the track. The giant metal beams are to the right of the track.

Even though there's no visible body I won't embed the picture.

http://grab.by/2nRJ

[Methanolic]

I would say foreseen/preventable.


without a doubt!!

[HotHotHeat]

I don't want to jump the gun - but in all likelihood, what are the chances of athletes pulling out? TWO serious accidents in one training day? FFS, this is training, they aren't even maxing themselves out yet.

Have to bet that there are very quiet discussions going on about whether the venue should be scrapped. In which case, I need binoculars to see COP.

[Ducay]

Hey HOOT, still think its a "freak accident"?

This is after 2 days

One of the favourites also got a scare with 2002 and 2006 gold medalist Armin Zoeggler of Italy crashing.
On Wednesday there were several crashes during women's luge training runs on a track widely-regarded as one of the most dangerous in the sport.
Romania's Violeta Stramaturaru crashed and was knocked unconscious for a few minutes and was taken to the hospital.

[Delthefunky]

The cost of this facility was $105 million...

[Scoopdogg]

They should put up plexiglass along the whole track similiar to hockey rinks to prevent this. This would ensure safety and allow the cameras and spectators to see the athletes.

[Komskies]

Just right click on the link and choose "Save As..." and save it as a file first.

Tried that. Using Firefox I hit 'Save Link As..', saved it, and when trying to open it with WMP it says WMP does not support the file type. or the codec used to compress the file.

[Russic]

Even the photo on the Calgary Herald article is just sickening.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/2010wintergames/Georgian+luger+dies+after+horrifying+crash+Whistle r+track/2556569/story.html

So I guess I'm not the only one who thought that was in poor taste. I understand if he was injured, but he's dead ... change the picture.

[PowerPlayoffs06]

I know people want to blame the design and all that but IMO this is a freak accident. How many different athletes, in how many different sports have gone down that track since it was built? Hundreds? If none of them brought it up as a concern why would the people who built it be concerned?

There've been over a dozen crashes this last week during training runs and mounting safety concerns.



There had been several other crashes on the luge course. A Romanian woman, Violeta Stramaturaru (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Violeta+Stramaturaru) was knocked briefly unconscious on Thursday and taken to a hospital after slamming into a wall several times.

Several sliders, including four American lugers reported terrible troubles finishing the course, while the gold medal favorite, Armin Zoeggler (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Armin+Zoeggeler) of Italy (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Italy), also crashed on his training run, coming off his sled and holding it with his left arm to keep it from hitting his body. He walked away from the crash on Blackcomb Mountain’s southeast side. The cours has 16 turns and drops steeply for 152 meters — the world’s longest drop.


Article Here (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/winter_olympics_2010/2010/02/12/2010-02-12_luger_nodar_kumaritashvili_rushed_to_hospital.h tml)

[KevanGuy]

Anyone have a diagram of the track or a pic of the exit? I don't really want to watch the vids or look at the crash pics.

http://cp.darkmatter.ca/gallery/albums/misc/2008poe_Stantec_WSC_5.jpg

It happened as he came out of 16.

[icarus]

Anyone think this could go down as Criminal Negligence?

Easily a lawsuit under professional liability. There is no way that should be allowed.Unlikely, there is an inherent risk in such a sport as luge. I don't think there is much precedence for it. I am sure it will be talked about, but at the end of the day when you take off down a steep hill at high speed in any sport there is a chance you could be seriously injured or killed.

Very sad and puts a pall on the opening ceremonies. RIP.

[dj_patm]

They should put up plexiglass along the whole track similiar to hockey rinks to prevent this. This would ensure safety and allow the cameras and spectators to see the athletes.

Too brilliant for canadian engineers to think of. C'mon now.

Although Plexiglass probably wouldn't have done much. You'd need Pyrex or something and that would've probably killed him anyway.

[kermitology]

http://www.ctvolympics.ca/news-centre/newsid=39462.html#why+this+track+means+fear

Whistler's reputation was established in November, 2008 when Loch damaged shoulder tendons in a crash and was one of three lugers hospitalized, and Canadian bob driver Pierre Lueders crashed in Corner 7, which was instantly named Lueders' Loop.

Holcomb has since claimed that the course was designed backward, with tighter turns near the bottom where sleds max-out the speed. And American luger Tony Benshoof told NBC: "When I first got on this track, I thought that somebody was going to kill themselves."

[Peanut]

Is this the first time in the history of luge that someone has crashed and as a result came out of the actual course/track? I can't imagine that something like this has never happened before. And if it's reasonable to assume that the athletes could come out of the track, then there should be some safety measures outside of the track, not huge metal poles. Like plexiglass as someone mentioned. Or even hay bales or something to help slow them down (they do this at the edges of the ski runs, right?).

I know I didn't know him or anything, but I'm quite upset about the whole thing. Seeing it 3 times probably didn't help.

[Komskies]

How hard would it be to pad the outsides of corners and place all of the cameras on the insides?

[GreatWhiteEbola]

Too brilliant for canadian engineers to think of. C'mon now.

Although Plexiglass probably wouldn't have done much. You'd need Pyrex or something and that would've probably killed him anyway.


Plexiglas would have kept him on the track.

[dj_patm]

Plexiglas would have kept him on the track.

Wouldn't it have broken. Pucks shatter plexiglass going much slower.

Pyrex wouldn't break but it would've been like hitting a brick wall.

[FiftyBelow]

Its a good thing there were no spectators as well. The guy was going around 150 Km/h.

[photon]

Tried that. Using Firefox I hit 'Save Link As..', saved it, and when trying to open it with WMP it says WMP does not support the file type. or the codec used to compress the file.

Hm, plays on WMP for me but I'm on Windows 7.

You could use VLC (http://www.videolan.org/vlc/) to play it (I use VLC most of the time anyway).

[calculoso]

Yeah, this is the part that really baffles me too. I get that a person doing 140km/h could fly a far distance through the air, but to put the poles like, 5 feet from the track?! Just doesn't make sense.

My friend used to luge and he broke his leg in Europe a good number of years ago. Steel poles along the side of the track, no matter how stupid, is a lot more common than you'd think.

[browna]

That Herald picture IMO is creepier then seeing the video in some aspects.

If you're a luge/skeleton/bobsledder and you now have to go past that point where a colleague has just gotten killed, in the biggest race of your lives, can't not be a distraction...when 000's of a second are at stake too.

Simple solution...there's a world class track 1000km east that hasn't had anywhere near these problems.

[HOOT]

Hey HOOT, still think its a "freak accident"?

This is after 2 days

There've been over a dozen crashes this last week during training runs and mounting safety concerns.


Yes I do think it is a freak accident that a luger flies out of the track as most analyst have never seen anything like it. Is the track dangerous? Yes. They said before the event started this was the most dangerous track in the world. If you don't like the risks involved with it you don't go.

What happened was horrible. But to go and sue people for negligence is ridiculous. What's next NHLers suing each other for getting hit with slap shots? It's part of the game/sport, everyone should know the risks involved with it.

[pylon]

Wouldn't it have broken. Pucks shatter plexiglass going much slower.

Pyrex wouldn't break but it would've been like hitting a brick wall.

Not intrested in giving a physics lesson here, but a body has much more surface area to distribute force, and a body is softer and has no sharp edges on it like a puck. The same as why the glass is rarely broken by body checks. It is usually only if there is a flaw in the glass anyway.

[GreatWhiteEbola]

Wouldn't it have broken. Pucks shatter plexiglass going much slower.

Pyrex wouldn't break but it would've been like hitting a brick wall.

I have no idea what the strength of Plexiglas vs Pyrex. From the video, it can be determined, the injuries resulted from the abrupt stop when the Luger collided with the support beam. The forces upon the Plexiglas, or other type of barrier, would not have been that great.

[HOOT]

Wouldn't it have broken. Pucks shatter plexiglass going much slower.

A puck and luger probably go the same speed with a slap shot. However a body would spread the hit out over the glass most likely not breaking it.

[photon]

Wouldn't it have broken. Pucks shatter plexiglass going much slower.

Pyrex wouldn't break but it would've been like hitting a brick wall.

Pucks also are heading straight towards the glass, and have a much smaller surface area.

He was going down the track for the most part, so the actual impact with the plexiglass would have been far less than the 150km/h.

Like if I'm driving along at 100km/h and I weave into the meridian concrete, it'll damage the car but not a lot, and not like I hit it full on at 100km/h

[Scoopdogg]

Wouldn't it have broken. Pucks shatter plexiglass going much slower.

Pyrex wouldn't break but it would've been like hitting a brick wall.

I don't think it would have broke. Pucks hit the glass dead on and in this case the glass would have just re directed him back onto the track where he could have (hopefully) just slid down the rest of the track without a fatal injury.

[Russic]

Wouldn't it have broken. Pucks shatter plexiglass going much slower.

Pyrex wouldn't break but it would've been like hitting a brick wall.

I don't think it would have broken because of the way he would have hit it. If the glass was where the beam was he probably would have, but I have to think if the wall was just extended it would have contained him. Still would have been a massive injury, but it may not have killed him. Even if he did smash though I would imagine breaking through a sheet of plexglass would be much better than going head first into a giant slab of steel.

[Byrns]

Yes I do think it is a freak accident that a luger flies out of the track as most analyst have never seen anything like it. Is the track dangerous? Yes. They said before the event started this was the most dangerous track in the world. If you don't like the risks involved with it you don't go.

What happened was horrible. But to go and sue people for negligence is ridiculous. What's next NHLers suing each other for getting hit with slap shots? It's part of the game/sport, everyone should know the risks involved with it.

So in professional football they don't put padding on the goal posts?

This is the same thing, and I'd say a lawsuit is justified.

[dj_patm]

Yeah makes sense.
Still don't really trust plexiglass.

They should just move those events here. It's to dangerous.

Edit: Pyrex is the really thick, almost break proof glass that is used in Science labs and other heavy duty situations.

[SeeGeeWhy]

Man, he just barely clears that wall....

Tragic.

RIP, young man.

[Barnes]

One of the corners (not 16) is named 50/50 because you have a 50/50 chance of making it out.

[pylon]

Yeah makes sense.
Still don't really trust plexiglass.

They should just move those events here. It's to dangerous.

Then never sit front row, behind a net at an NHL game. And laminated glass is trusted for bullet proof applications. Do you research any thing you type?

[GreatWhiteEbola]

Yeah makes sense.
Still don't really trust plexiglass.

They should just move those events here. It's to dangerous.

Edit: Pyrex is the really thick, almost break proof glass that is used in Science labs and other heavy duty situations.

I don't trust pig farmers, I empathize.

[SeeGeeWhy]

A few ideas...

Move the posts for the awnings back, or make them swooping arches/curves so they're not so damn close to the track.

Raise the wall height by another 8" along those 20 feet.

Put padding on the posts.

Such an awful thing to have happened.

[loob job]

I can't find that video anywhere, one that works anyway, frustrating.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpQS7hwKrZE&annotation_id=annotation_555347&feature=iv

Found it.......terrible.

[Bill Bumface]

Has an athlete ever died during a modern Olympic event? I know this was training and not technically the Olympics, but I'm wondering if this is a first of its kind.

[MJM]

Padding isn't a solution here. Padding or now padding, you hit a pole going 150 KM/H you are dead. A layer of padding isn't going to stop that.

[Komskies]

In Germany in 1972 9 athletes were killed by terrorists.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Brutal. Supposed to be an enjoyable time for all athletes and spectators, now there's a death before they even open the Games. Poor kid, only 21...........terrible.

If they're going to spend 105 million on that track, they might as well have spent a few more bucks and bought some padding for those beams. Really be interesting to see what happens with the other racers. Could get ugly for Vancouver if everyone starts pulling out due to safety concerns......which is understandable.

[GreatWhiteEbola]

Padding isn't a solution here. Padding or now padding, you hit a pole going 150 KM/H you are dead. A layer of padding isn't going to stop that.

Inertia is a bitch on internal organs.

[JayP]

Padding isn't a solution here. Padding or now padding, you hit a pole going 150 KM/H you are dead. A layer of padding isn't going to stop that.

Yeah, padding really wouldn't do much.

A lot of the damage comes from your organs crashing around in your body when you go from 140 km/h to 0 km/h in a split second. The same thing happens with car accidents.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Not a good start at all to the games. Furlong and co. need to fix this.

[Komskies]

Padding isn't a solution here. Padding or now padding, you hit a pole going 150 KM/H you are dead. A layer of padding isn't going to stop that.

I don't think people are suggesting the pole should be padded. I think people are suggesting some sort of barrier that deflects the luger back onto the track. Ideally a worst case scenario would be a bunch of broken bones or something.

[CubicleGeek]

The video is now up on ctvolympics.ca.

[opendoor]

So in professional football they don't put padding on the goal posts?

This is the same thing, and I'd say a lawsuit is justified.

I haven't seen a video (and I don't think I want to) but I've seen pictures of the accident and the guy basically went straight into a pole at 150 km/h. Padding wouldn't have done a damn thing. Comparing it to football and the 30 km/h or so they might go into a pole is silly.

What they should have done (and probably will do) is put a solid surface along those pillars, whether it be higher sides on the track or a run of plexiglass, or whatever. Then the luger would have deflected off of it and slid down the track. He'd probably still be pretty seriously injured but he would have survived IMO.

[Saint Troy]

I wish I hadn't seen the video, he had to have been killed instantly at that speed. Tragic opening to the games, I wonder how the rest of the athletes come to grips mentally with racing on that track?

[Igottago]

Terrible news. I can't bring myself to actually click the links, I don't think I'd want to see the accident. Tragic way to kick off the Olympics.

[Russic]

Has an athlete ever died during a modern Olympic event? I know this was training and not technically the Olympics, but I'm wondering if this is a first of its kind.

In terms of death during an event I only found 1 instance (from wikipedia):

The only Olympic death linked to doping occurred at the Rome Games of 1960 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_Summer_Olympics). During the cycling road race, Danish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark_at_the_1960_Summer_Olympics) cyclist Knud Enemark Jensen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knud_Enemark_Jensen) fell from his bicycle and later died. A coroner's inquiry found that he was under the influence of amphetamines.

[HOOT]

So in professional football they don't put padding on the goal posts?

This is the same thing, and I'd say a lawsuit is justified.

Has someone in recent football history ever run into those posts? Yes.

Has someone in recent luge history ever flew out of the track? No.

So no they are no the same thing. Things happen and even with padding on something it doesn't prevent someone from getting injured. I'm just saying you can't prevent or think of every little thing, especially when it has never happened in the history of the sport. But I'm sure going back to the early 1900's they used padding on the goal posts. :confused:

Stuff happens and this is how we improve as humans to bring safer ideas to sports. Just like when hockey nets were basically welded into the ground, or no nets above the glass behind the goals nets, or how about wearing helmets?

It's sad and I feel sorry for his family and friends but it doesn't take away from the fact it was a freak accident.

[dj_patm]

Then never sit front row, behind a net at an NHL game. And laminated glass is trusted for bullet proof applications. Do you research any thing you type?

Calm down. Jesus.
No I didn't research physics before typing this post.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

I don't think people are suggesting the pole should be padded. I think people are suggesting some sort of barrier that deflects the luger back onto the track. Ideally a worst case scenario would be a bunch of broken bones or something.

I was thinking of some sort of padding that would act like a barrier around those beams.

Maybe not padding per se, but something that isn't 100% metal on the edge of the track.

With all the money they spent I'm sure they could have found someone to come up with the proper logistics.

[pylon]

I can't find that video anywhere, one that works anyway, frustrating.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpQS7hwKrZE&annotation_id=annotation_555347&feature=iv

Found it


Honestly, not really something that "needs" to be seen, its pretty brutal.

I'll give you the play by play.

Luger comes out of corner full speed.
Rides up the inside wall to high.
Overcorrects up the outside wall.
Goes back the other way and off track and is stops instantly from 140 kph almost being wedged at base of big sqaure steel post making a big "clang" noise.

I saw a motorcycle accident in Vancouver very similar involving a light standard, and the result was the same. Instant death.

[rich76]

Terrible, terrible thing to have happened.

Rest in peace, buddy x

[nfotiu]

Has someone in recent football history ever run into those posts? Yes.

Has someone in recent luge history ever flew out of the track? No.



Is that true? I would have thought it was something that happens from time to time.

The design and the speed of track itself may have caused the guy to fly off the track.

[DownhillGoat]

Has someone in recent football history ever run into those posts? Yes.
I'd say comparing a running back doing 20 km/h running into a padded post is a wee bit different.

Padding those beams is no different than padding a ski lift post. It'll soften the blow if you're doing a slow to moderate speed. Hitting anything solid at 140 km/h is going to be deadly. The human body cannot absorb that abrupt stop in momentum, no matter how soft the first 3 inches of the impact are.

The plexi may help, but would still be dependent on the crash (bouncing around the track would be no guarantee of safety, but the chances would be better).

[You Need a Thneed]

The death cast a pall over the Games as they had barely begun, hours before the opening ceremony was to begin. A similar tragedy happened in 1964, when two athletes — an Austrian skier and British luger — were killed in pre-Olympics training in Innsbruck, Austria

Link. (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/13/sports/olympics/13luge.html?ref=olympics)

[Kybosh]

Is that true? I would have thought it was something that happens from time to time.

The design and the speed of track itself may have caused the guy to fly off the track.

I don't have a link but one of the luge organizers on CTV said that he has never heard of a luger flying off the track.

[mac_gurl]

ctvolympics.ca has some pretty disturbing photos along with the article. I don't think everyone needs/wants to see pictures of him being resuscitated and blood everywhere, without any warnings.

Very sad start to the Olympics.

[Kipper is King]

I started watching his run on ctvolympics.ca, but I could not bear to see the actual crash. Very sad.

[dj_patm]

I don't have a link but one of the luge organizers on CTV said that he has never heard of a luger flying off the track.

Probably has something to do with this being the stupidest track design of all time.

[Delthefunky]

It's sad and I feel sorry for his family and friends but it doesn't take away from the fact it was a freak accident.

I don't know dude... This track already had a bad rep, and it's only a few years old. If this track were to have been around for 20 years and then this happened I would say it's a freak accident, but being so new and having such a bad accident along with all the other accidents, I think it points to a serious design flaw.

[dj_patm]

Something is up with these olympics. Training events canceled due to weather, a death, multiple training crashes with one serious one ending a skiers olympics...

Not a good start.

[Kybosh]

Probably has something to do with this being the stupidest track design of all time.

Yeah, OR he had not practiced on it much before compared to the Canadians or Americans. Just because you can write it down doesn't mean it's true. How can you possibly quantify that this is the "stupidest" track design of all time?

[HotHotHeat]

Yeah, OR he had not practiced on it much before compared to the Canadians or Americans. Just because you can write it down doesn't mean it's true. How can you possibly quantify that this is the "stupidest" track design of all time?

Americans have said it's an overly dangerous track. You'd be in tough arguing the track isn't to blame.

[malcolmk14]

Has an athlete ever died during a modern Olympic event? I know this was training and not technically the Olympics, but I'm wondering if this is a first of its kind.

Two athletes died in 1964 in Austria during Olympic training runs.

An Australian skier, Ross Milne.

A British luger, Kazimierz Kay-Skrzypeski.

Also, in 1992 a Swiss skier died when he was free-skiing before the finals.

Tragic, RIP.

[HOOT]

I don't know dude... This track already had a bad rep, and it's only a few years old. If this track were to have been around for 20 years and then this happened I would say it's a freak accident, but being so new and having such a bad accident along with all the other accidents, I think it points to a serious design flaw.

If it has a bad rep athletes should have been saying they will not race on it. Obviously it was dangerous, as that's their sport, but if it was that dangerous why are athletes still going down it?

They have a corned named 50/50 by the lugers because there is a 50% chance you will even make it through. If you have a 50% chance of getting hurt why put yourself in that position?

It is clear there is a design flaw and the track is dangerous. It is your responsibility as an athlete to know your limits and not go if it isn't safe. It just seems like everyone wants to sue someone for every little accident. I just think some blame falls on the athletes who continue to go down it, make a stand if they are putting your life in danger.

[Saint Troy]

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/postedsports/archive/2010/02/12/photos-from-georgian-luger-s-crash.aspx

pictures from National post

[Russic]

I'm not sure I completely agree with what CTV is doing here. I understand there is a whole over-arching debate about what the media should and should not cover, but this just seems like a bit much. Those pictures that accompany the video or quite graphic as well. I don't know ... feels wrong.

[Igottago]

They should be shutting down the track pending a full safety investigation. It may have been a freak occurance but if its happened once, it can happen again.

[pylon]

Its right on the front page in HD on ctvolympics.ca if you want to see it. One of my co-workers almost passed out watching it though. So be warned.

[dj_patm]

Yeah, OR he had not practiced on it much before compared to the Canadians or Americans. Just because you can write it down doesn't mean it's true. How can you possibly quantify that this is the "stupidest" track design of all time?

They have said that there will never be a track this dangerous built ever again.

That to me screams "STUPID TRACK DESIGN"

[Russic]

If it has a bad rep athletes should have been saying they will not race on it. Obviously it was dangerous, as that's their sport, but if it was that dangerous why are athletes still going down it?

...

I disagree. Olympic athletes aren't really in the position to boycott the games imo. You train most of your life and get 1, maybe 2 shots at them. I'm not sure many would bow out because it's not safe.

[valo403]

If it has a bad rep athletes should have been saying they will not race on it. Obviously it was dangerous, as that's their sport, but if it was that dangerous why are athletes still going down it?

They have a corned named 50/50 by the lugers because there is a 50% chance you will even make it through. If you have a 50% chance of getting hurt why put yourself in that position?

It is clear there is a design flaw and the track is dangerous. It is your responsibility as an athlete to know your limits and not go if it isn't safe. It just seems like everyone wants to sue someone for every little accident. I just think some blame falls on the athletes who continue to go down it, make a stand if they are putting your life in danger.

Umm, because not going down it means not participating in the olympics?? It's not the athletes responsibility to ensure that the track is safe, it's the designers responsibility. What a pathetic attempt to shift blame.

[Kybosh]

Americans have said it's an overly dangerous track. You'd be in tough arguing the track isn't to blame.

It's interesting because I'm pretty good friends with a luge coach (who is at Whistler right now) and I remember him describing the Whistler course as challenging but never dangerous. Of course, with a sport such as luge, challenging will inevitably equate to dangerous.

Athletes are always getting better and track designers are tasked with making a course that meets the demands of the athletes. I honestly hold no blame for the designers of the course until I see further proof of negligence.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

I'm not sure I completely agree with what CTV is doing here. I understand there is a whole over-arching debate about what the media should and should not cover, but this just seems like a bit much. Those pictures that accompany the video or quite graphic as well. I don't know ... feels wrong.

Yeah, it feels like they're going overboard with it a bit too much. Cover the story, throw a picture up of the kid from earlier in the run or something. That's good enough. Showing pictures of people practicing CPR with blood on the kid's face when we already know the outcome is in poor taste.

[Barnes]

Yeah, OR he had not practiced on it much before compared to the Canadians or Americans. Just because you can write it down doesn't mean it's true. How can you possibly quantify that this is the "stupidest" track design of all time?

Four American lugers have commented that they have had trouble making it down in one piece since Wednesday. The top mens luger knocked himself out and Pierre Lueders flipped his bob. It's the fastest track with the greatest drop. All things considered,it doesn't seam to be the smartest track design of all time.

[valo403]

It's interesting because I'm pretty good friends with a luge coach (who is at Whistler right now) and I remember him describing the Whistler course as challenging but never dangerous. Of course, with a sport such as luge, challenging will inevitably equate to dangerous.

Athletes are always getting better and track designers are tasked with making a course that meets the demands of the athletes. I honestly hold no blame for the designers of the course until I see further proof of negligence.

A track design that results in someone flying off of it into a steel pole is more than enough evidence. Add in the fact that many athletes have been very vocal with their concerns and it's a slam dunk.

[HOOT]

Umm, because not going down it means not participating in the olympics?? It's not the athletes responsibility to ensure that the track is safe, it's the designers responsibility. What a pathetic attempt to shift blame.

Actually it's not an attempt to shift blame. It is about talking about the risk involved with the sport. What's pathetic is people wanting to sue for every thing that happens in this world, without accounting in the risks involved with it.

Wow some people are taking what I'm saying too seriously. I'm not saying the luger is to blame, I'm not saying VANOC doesn't have some blame, what I'm saying is that when you play any sport there is a risk involved. It isn't like this is breaking news that the track is dangerous.

You can miss the games, or you can take your chances. I agree if I was an athlete I would be going down that track regardless because this is what I worked for but it doesn't mean I should blame everyone else if I get hurt or die from it.

I'm just glad most athletes understand that there are risks involved with a sport and you can't go suing people just because something bad happens. Something bad happens everyday!

[Regorium]

It's interesting because I'm pretty good friends with a luge coach (who is at Whistler right now) and I remember him describing the Whistler course as challenging but never dangerous. Of course, with a sport such as luge, challenging will inevitably equate to dangerous.

Athletes are always getting better and track designers are tasked with making a course that meets the demands of the athletes. I honestly hold no blame for the designers of the course until I see further proof of negligence.

I understand they were trying to push the limits of the athletes, but this is too far.

They designed it to be difficult, then perhaps they should've had some fail-safes in there in case people crash.

With the amount of crashes, I'm thinking there has to be some sort of negligence in the design. It's not just one person losing control and dying. It's the best in the world that fail to make it through going at 90% since it's only training.

[Envitro]

So, you guys don't think that the IOC and the International Luge Federation had anything to do with approving the design of the course?

If they thought it was "deadly" or "dangerous" you don't think that they wouldn't have made them change it at any point in the design, build, or inspection process over the last 10 years?

[Coys1882]

How much control do these guys have over their luges/bobsleds speedwise? If they have the ability to slow it down or speed it up - is it possible this guy was over aggressive on what is a very fast and dangerous track?

Auto racing has deaths all the time and a lot of them occur on ovals - are the designers of those tracks liable?

[dj_patm]

Remember when that Bluejacket shot the puck out of play and killed that girl? It's the only time it's ever happend yet they still put up a net, wrecking the quality of the sightlines.

But is anyone going to complain? If the net can save one life then it's worth it.

If moving the track events to Calgary can save one life, is it not worth it?

[Envitro]

^ seriously don't see that happening. The logistics would be near impossible.

[Coys1882]

Is it the job of the athlete to race according to the track?
Is it the job of the designer to create a track safely for athletes so they can go 100% without risk?

I honestly know nothing about this sport and its culture. Anyone have any insight?

[Kybosh]

If moving the track events to Calgary can save one life, is it not worth it?

I'm just curious because I haven't constantly been watching the olympics so far. Has anyone actually mentioned moving the event to Calgary or is this wild internet speculation?

[zamler]

Yeah, padding really wouldn't do much.

A lot of the damage comes from your organs crashing around in your body when you go from 140 km/h to 0 km/h in a split second. The same thing happens with car accidents.
Padding would result in a greatly reduced deceleration curve (longer time frame) and make a huge difference. And it also not only about the deceleration, but blunt force impact on the body, which for example an airbag in a car helps to offset. (among other things)

Either way, the fact that absolutely NO safely features were in place to prevent an off track incident like this is inexcusable. Having solid, unprotected pillars right next to the track is beyond stupid.

[Regorium]

So, you guys don't think that the IOC and the International Luge Federation had anything to do with approving the design of the course?

If they thought it was "deadly" or "dangerous" you don't think that they wouldn't have made them change it at any point in the design, build, or inspection process over the last 10 years?

Models and simulations only do so much. They're a starting point, and when something happens in a practical situation, you need to go back and re-analyze what went wrong.

When Canada trains on it, you think they were really pushing themselves 110% on that track with so much time left before the Olympics?

The thing is, on most other tracks, you can push yourself to your limit and not have to worry about getting killed. Someone else is going to feel like they're losing control, but push forward anyways to get that extra .004 seconds and then get themselves killed.

[Barnes]

I'm just curious because I haven't constantly been watching the olympics so far. Has anyone actually mentioned moving the event to Calgary or is this wild internet speculation?

Wild Internet speculation based on the fact that we are the backup course and training has been suspended.

I have not heard anything on CTV.

[Regorium]

Is it the job of the athlete to race according to the track?
Is it the job of the designer to create a track safely for athletes so they can go 100% without risk?

I honestly know nothing about this sport and its culture. Anyone have any insight?

Yeah, actually I'd like to know the answer to this too. My post assumes it's more of the latter.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Watching that video was pretty gruesome.

They could raise the height of the barrier where Nodar, RIP, flew over, that might mitigate the seriousness of other accidents.

[zamler]

So, you guys don't think that the IOC and the International Luge Federation had anything to do with approving the design of the course?

If they thought it was "deadly" or "dangerous" you don't think that they wouldn't have made them change it at any point in the design, build, or inspection process over the last 10 years?
Questions that need to be answered. But common sense (never mind any engineering considerations) tell you that putting angular, solid pillars right next to the track is not a good idea.

[pylon]

How much control do these guys have over their luges/bobsleds speedwise? If they have the ability to slow it down or speed it up - is it possible this guy was over aggressive on what is a very fast and dangerous track?

Auto racing has deaths all the time and a lot of them occur on ovals - are the designers of those tracks liable?


Tough to compare. These things have no brakes or throttle to slow you down, just gravity. It is as simple as getting down the track full speed. Basically the winner is the person that navigates corners the cleanest. Thousandths of seconds could separate 1st from 4th. So the athlete can't be to blame for this as much as the design of the track as the "expectation" is full tilt start to finish. There should not be a giant steel beam or 10 there to catch you if you make an error. Its is simply a bad design.

[HOOT]

Live News conference right now on CTV...

[dj_patm]

I'm just curious because I haven't constantly been watching the olympics so far. Has anyone actually mentioned moving the event to Calgary or is this wild internet speculation?

Just wild internet speculation. Which is unfortunate.
Would the logistics be that bad? Calgary is a days drive away. The track is perfect. Doesn't need to be touched at all as its used regularly in World Championship events.

Drive the athletes in, equipment in and camera crews in. All the infrastructure is ready to go. Booking the athletes hotel rooms would be the toughest part but after that is there anything left?

[flames_fan_down_under]

Also live press conference on right now. Apparently you can watch online. www.ctvolympics.ca

[Bertuzzied]

Holy crap. how tragic.

I have a feeling these games are going to be a disaster. Not that i want them to be.

[Kybosh]

Watching that video was pretty gruesome.

They could raise the height of the barrier where Nodar, RIP, flew over, that might mitigate the seriousness of other accidents.

I feel like this would be one of the only safety measures that would help. The banking corners may need to be higher. Bringing someone to an abrupt stop, with or without padding, is probably more detrimental than a slower deceleration.

[valo403]

How much control do these guys have over their luges/bobsleds speedwise? If they have the ability to slow it down or speed it up - is it possible this guy was over aggressive on what is a very fast and dangerous track?

Auto racing has deaths all the time and a lot of them occur on ovals - are the designers of those tracks liable?

If the designers of those tracks are negligent in their design, then yes they are liable.

[You Need a Thneed]

Either way, the fact that absolutely NO safely features were in place to prevent an off track incident like this is inexcusable. Having solid, unprotected pillars right next to the track is beyond stupid.

There clearly is safety features installed - the 4 feet high (mostly completely vertical) walls that are part of the track. It should be obvious that no one in the luge community (the only people that really know what they are talking about here) believed that a luger could possibly fly over that wall.

[valo403]

Actually it's not an attempt to shift blame. It is about talking about the risk involved with the sport. What's pathetic is people wanting to sue for every thing that happens in this world, without accounting in the risks involved with it.

Wow some people are taking what I'm saying too seriously. I'm not saying the luger is to blame, I'm not saying VANOC doesn't have some blame, what I'm saying is that when you play any sport there is a risk involved. It isn't like this is breaking news that the track is dangerous.

You can miss the games, or you can take your chances. I agree if I was an athlete I would be going down that track regardless because this is what I worked for but it doesn't mean I should blame everyone else if I get hurt or die from it.

I'm just glad most athletes understand that there are risks involved with a sport and you can't go suing people just because something bad happens. Something bad happens everyday!

That's such garbage. There's a difference between risk and unreasonable risk. Everything has some sort of risk involved, and yes bad things can happen every day, but when things that can be prevented occur someone should be held accountable.

[dj_patm]

This conference is useless.

What are they taking questions for?

[HOOT]

Tough to compare. These things have no brakes or throttle to slow you down, just gravity. It is as simple as getting down the track full speed. Basically the winner is the person that navigates corners the cleanest. Thousandths of seconds could separate 1st from 4th. So the athlete can't be to blame for this as much as the design of the track as the "expectation" is full tilt start to finish. There should not be a giant steel beam or 10 there to catch you if you make an error. Its is simply a bad design.

They actually can slow down by the way they move their body and with the gloves and boots they wear from what I have heard. So if a luger can go slower and safer than they can. There are plenty of sports where going 100% can 'wreak' you or stop you from finishing first. This is where athletes need to find the happy medium if they are in a dangerous situation. Going 100% gives you the best chance to win, but also increases your chances of not finish at all or very high on the standings.

Again no one in recent history has come out of the track during luge so there was no reason to expect someone to do so now. Just like someone mentioned this is similar to car racing where now after some deaths they are improving areas that can cause them.

[Kybosh]

Every Olympics has controversies. It's a shame that this one happened before the games even began and resulted in the snuffing out of a young life. I'm honestly still in shock.

[HOOT]

That's such garbage. There's a difference between risk and unreasonable risk. Everything has some sort of risk involved, and yes bad things can happen every day, but when things that can be prevented occur someone should be held accountable.

But if it has never happened before how do you know to stop it? It's like someone said before about Nascar where we all knew/know that going into a wall at 200MPH is dangerous but it took them until when? 90's to finally do something about it.

You can't predict everything and if this type of accident has never happened before how do you assume they should prepare for it? Crystal ball?

[dj_patm]

http://www.ctvolympics.ca/news-centre/newsid=39462.html?cid=rss

This story originally appeared in The Globe and Mail on Saturday, February 6, 2010.

[worth]

Is anyone here naive enough to think that the track is not put through simulation after simulation to see how the track works and the physics of having a human going down it at 140+ km/h?

Honestly, if the designers had though it was going to be a problem, I'm sure they would have brought it up. It's very easy to point fingers after something has happened. Is it negligent? Only if they didn't do their due diligence in ensuring the safety of the athletes. Sometimes stuff happens. Sometimes unexpected stuff happens, but I think it's very difficult at this moment to start saying people were negligent. There will be an investigation and it will be decided if there was negligence. I will side with the freak accident argument until a proper investigation can be undertaken.

What do they do until then? I'm glad I don't have to make that decision.

[zamler]

It should be obvious that no one in the luge community (the only people that really know what they are talking about here) believed that a luger could possibly fly over that wall.
It has nothing to do with "believing" what could possibly happen. It did happen, which means from an engineering perspective, the design failed.

That is the whole point of safely as part of any design. You don't design it to fail, but put in measures in case it does. And you always over engineer, just in case you were wrong. I find this death completely inexcusable.

[nik-]

Was anyone else a little sickened by the whole "switch to IOC pres, he takes of glasses Kronkite style, wipes his eyes" thing in that press conference there?

I might just be overly cynical, but that just seemed really contrived to me.

[Coys1882]

Tough to compare. You're right, it is tough to compare but I couldn't think of another sport to compare it too. Like I said I know nothing of the sport other than I think it's something I don't mind watching every four years and get grumpy when I hear the people who compete in it complain they don't get enough funding.

I wonder if over the last several years if these tracks have been slowly pushing the envelope for speed and safety and this track has finally crossed the line? Or is this like going from the kiddie roller coaster at Calaway Park to the real deal at six flags. I don't know - silly to lay blame at the feet of the designers so soon I think.

[pylon]

They actually can slow down by the way they move their body and with the gloves and boots they wear from what I have heard. So if a luger can go slower and safer than they can. There are plenty of sports where going 100% can 'wreak' you or stop you from finishing first. This is where athletes need to find the happy medium if they are in a dangerous situation. Going 100% gives you the best chance to win, but also increases your chances of not finish at all or very high on the standings.

Again no one in recent history has come out of the track during luge so there was no reason to expect someone to do so now. Just like someone mentioned this is similar to car racing where now after some deaths they are improving areas that can cause them.

Even if he was able to slow down 10%, hitting a steel girder at 126kph as opposed to 140 kph will probably have the same net result. Also, of course these athletes are going to go 100%, they don't show up to get a green participant ribbon. They get one shot every 4 years for gold, and you can't blame them for going all out. You have to provide them with a safe facility knowing this is their intent.

[valo403]

They actually can slow down by the way they move their body and with the gloves and boots they wear from what I have heard. So if a luger can go slower and safer than they can. There are plenty of sports where going 100% can 'wreak' you or stop you from finishing first. This is where athletes need to find the happy medium if they are in a dangerous situation. Going 100% gives you the best chance to win, but also increases your chances of not finish at all or very high on the standings.

Again no one in recent history has come out of the track during luge so there was no reason to expect someone to do so now. Just like someone mentioned this is similar to car racing where now after some deaths they are improving areas that can cause them.

Not sure what you'd define as recent, but one of the 2 other deaths at an olympics was the result of a luger flying off the track in 1964.

I'm sure nobody thought 'well somebody might fly over here, but screw it we'll take a chance' but that doesn't mean that someone shouldn't have looked at the track and noticed an issue.

And the track should be designed so that athletes pushing 100% can navigate it safely. Forcing athletes to brake in order to prevent a crash, or a loss of time, is one thing. Expecting athletes to brake so they don't die is completely different.

[zamler]

Is anyone here naive enough to think that the track is not put through simulation after simulation to see how the track works and the physics of having a human going down it at 140+ km/h?

Honestly, if the designers had though it was going to be a problem, I'm sure they would have brought it up. It's very easy to point fingers after something has happened. Is it negligent? Only if they didn't do their due diligence in ensuring the safety of the athletes. Sometimes stuff happens. Sometimes unexpected stuff happens, but I think it's very difficult at this moment to start saying people were negligent. There will be an investigation and it will be decided if there was negligence. I will side with the freak accident argument until a proper investigation can be undertaken.

What do they do until then? I'm glad I don't have to make that decision.
Someone flying off a high speed track is hardly "unexpected". It is not common, but it does happen.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Anyone able to summarize what has been said at the press conference?

[Regorium]

Is anyone here naive enough to think that the track is not put through simulation after simulation to see how the track works and the physics of having a human going down it at 140+ km/h?

Honestly, if the designers had though it was going to be a problem, I'm sure they would have brought it up. It's very easy to point fingers after something has happened. Is it negligent? Only if they didn't do their due diligence in ensuring the safety of the athletes. Sometimes stuff happens. Sometimes unexpected stuff happens, but I think it's very difficult at this moment to start saying people were negligent. There will be an investigation and it will be decided if there was negligence. I will side with the freak accident argument until a proper investigation can be undertaken.

What do they do until then? I'm glad I don't have to make that decision.

Right, I think we need to give them time for a proper investigation.

However, I truly feel that there is some negligence here. There's been too many crashes from world class athletes, and subsequent musings about the track. Thus, until then, I am siding with the negligence aspect, perhaps from design (model did not properly assign risk), construction (curve made slightly too tight throwing off models), or management (like Fotze said "lower walls 6 inches to help with sightlines").

[dj_patm]

Anyone able to summarize what has been said at the press conference?

Sad. Investigation. Can't Answer Your Question X4. Bye.

[Regorium]

Even if he was able to slow down 10%, hitting a steel girder at 126kph as opposed to 140 kph will probably have the same net result. Also, of course these athletes are going to go 100%, they don't show up to get a green participant ribbon. They get one shot every 4 years for gold, and you can't blame them for going all out. You have to provide them with a safe facility knowing this is their intent.

Well, the expectation with slowing down 10% is that he wouldn't have lost control, not that he would hit the pillar 10% slower.

[chemgear]

It has nothing to do with "believing" what could possibly happen. It did happen, which means from an engineering perspective, the design failed.

That is the whole point of safely as part of any design. You don't design it to fail, but put in measures in case it does. And you always over engineer, just in case you were wrong. I find this death completely inexcusable.

Aye, as a Canadian and an engineer, this is bloody embarassing. And it's not like it's just one crappy athlete on a poor run, sounds like at least a dozen other people have crashed out/been knocked unconscious.

[Ducay]

I might just be overly cynical, but that just seemed really contrived to me.

Wow.....just wow

[zamler]

It is one thing to design a very fast track that may in fact be inherently risky, but is it quite another to put completely unforgiving posts right in an area where a rider could possibly fly off the track. Okay I've beaten my point into the ground, I just find it incompressible that any engineers could that careless and stupid.

I would not be surprised if it comes out that the engineers were pressured to design the fastest track ever, and along with other considerations such as spectators and television coverage, compromises were made.

[You Need a Thneed]

It has nothing to do with "believing" what could possibly happen. It did happen, which means from an engineering perspective, the design failed.

That is the whole point of safely as part of any design. You don't design it to fail, but put in measures in case it does. And you always over engineer, just in case you were wrong. I find this death completely inexcusable.

The people who know what they are talking about obviously had to approve the track design - I'm assuming the international Luge Federation. Also obviously, that's going to include over engineering for safety.

Thus, it should be clear that the people with knowledge of how luge works didn't think what happened today was possible.

Talking about negligence in this case is utterly silly, at least coming from any of us, who have absolutely no knowledge of track design. Let the IOCs/ILFs investigation figure out what happened.

[nik-]

Wow.....just wow

hey, I said it might be overly cynical, but it just seemed weird to me.

[valo403]

The people who know what they are talking about obviously had to approve the track design - I'm assuming the international Luge Federation. Also obviously, that's going to include over engineering for safety.

Thus, it should be clear that the people with knowledge of how luge works didn't think what happened today was possible.

Talking about negligence in this case is utterly silly, at least coming from any of us, who have absolutely no knowledge of track design. Let the IOCs/ILFs investigation figure out what happened.

Obviously? Appears not.

[Regorium]

It is one thing to design a very fast track that may in fact be inherently risky, but is it quite another to put completely unforgiving posts right in an area where a rider could possibly fly off the track. Okay I've beaten my point into the ground, I just find it incompressible that any engineers could that careless and stupid.

I would not be surprised if it comes out that the engineers were pressured to design the fastest track ever, and along with other considerations such as spectators and television coverage, compromises were made.

There's a problem with this though.

You say it's unacceptable to put unforgiving posts in an area where a rider could possibly fly off the track. This presumes that it's okay to put unforgiving posts where a rider couldn't fly off the track. If the engineer's models and due diligence showed that there was 0% chance to fly off the track there, then it's not their fault.

However, like I posted before, I feel like there is some negligence somewhere along the way. We will find out when the proper investigation is conducted.

[Acey]

I'm still baffled CTV has a high definition video of someone dying right on their front page.

[Burninator]

Is anyone here naive enough to think that the track is not put through simulation after simulation to see how the track works and the physics of having a human going down it at 140+ km/h?

Honestly, if the designers had though it was going to be a problem, I'm sure they would have brought it up. It's very easy to point fingers after something has happened. Is it negligent? Only if they didn't do their due diligence in ensuring the safety of the athletes. Sometimes stuff happens. Sometimes unexpected stuff happens, but I think it's very difficult at this moment to start saying people were negligent. There will be an investigation and it will be decided if there was negligence. I will side with the freak accident argument until a proper investigation can be undertaken.

What do they do until then? I'm glad I don't have to make that decision.I agree. All of a sudden everyone has turned into an internet arm chair luge track engineer.

[Barnes]

Everyone needs to read the article that dj_patm posted.

Looking at the stats, the Whistler track is shorter than ours, has 2 more turns and is 30m greater in vertical at 150m. Compared to all other tracks in the world, there isn't another on like it.

[jayswin]

I'm still baffled CTV has a high definition video of someone dying right on their front page.


I bet you they're going to get bombarded with angry calls/emails over this.

[HOOT]

Not sure what you'd define as recent, but one of the 2 other deaths at an olympics was the result of a luger flying off the track in 1964.

1964 was when Luge was first introduced to the Olympics and it weather was to blame for the accident. And actually only one person died at the Luge event, and one was a skier.


I'm sure nobody thought 'well somebody might fly over here, but screw it we'll take a chance' but that doesn't mean that someone shouldn't have looked at the track and noticed an issue.

Personally if I have been luging all my life and I felt there was a chance someone could die I would have said no and made a stink about it. No one did, including the athletes, because no one could have imagined someone flying over the edge like that.

And the track should be designed so that athletes pushing 100% can navigate it safely. Forcing athletes to brake in order to prevent a crash, or a loss of time, is one thing. Expecting athletes to brake so they don't die is completely different.

Well if you think all sports are designed for an athlete to push 100% and not know his limits that is your issue and you don't really understand sports very well. This was a crash. Just happened to be a crash that turned into a freakish death.

[Mtt48]

http://boston.barstoolsports.com/random-thoughts/olympic-luge-guy-nodar-kumaritashvili-killed-in-crash/

This shows the video. It is so sad.

EDIT - OPPS someone already posted a link

[zamler]

There's a problem with this though.

You say it's unacceptable to put unforgiving posts in an area where a rider could possibly fly off the track. This presumes that it's okay to put unforgiving posts where a rider couldn't fly off the track. If the engineer's models and due diligence showed that there was 0% chance to fly off the track there, then it's not their fault.

Then who's fault is it?

And there is no such thing as a zero percent chance, just varying degrees near zero. And if you look at how that area of the track is, it certainly looks like a vulnerable location where someone could lose control and leave the track. Simply designing posts that can absorb at least some impact would appear to be worth the investment.

But it's too late for the luger. Very sad, and casts a dark cloud over the whole games.

[dre]

My deepest sympathy to his family and friends.

[pylon]

http://www.ctvolympics.ca/news-centre/newsid=39462.html?cid=rss

This story originally appeared in The Globe and Mail on Saturday, February 6, 2010.

I feel dirty for thanks'ing that. But good find.

[Mtt48]

Man, so sad. He is such a young kid, gets to go to the Olympics. You have to think all of his friends and family and everyone who ever known him is so pumped to see him go and compete and then this.

[zamler]

I agree. All of a sudden everyone has turned into an internet arm chair luge track engineer.
I have an engineering background. So from that perspective, I can say that from what I've seen, I see a poor design and a death that could have been prevented. That is my initial reaction, which I submit is just as valid and someone saying, no, everything was designed properly this is just a freak occurrence and nothing could have been done.

[HOOT]

I feel dirty for thanks'ing that. But good find.

What I find crazy is they don't mention turn 16 once in the article.

[PowerPlayoffs06]

I feel dirty for thanks'ing that. But good find.

Then you can take your Thanks back and give it to Kermitology at the top of Page 6, where he posted it first. :whistle:

[J pold]

They showed the video on the TV's while I was at the gym a few hours ago, a girl riding a stationary bike let out a light scream when they showed it. I got a pit in my stomach after watching it.

So, unbelievably sad.

[pylon]

Well if you think all sports are designed for an athlete to push 100% and not know his limits that is your issue and you don't really understand sports very well. This was a crash. Just happened to be a crash that turned into a freakish death.

We are not talking about all sports here, we are talking about a sport designed to be participated at without the use of brakes or slowing down. These guys try to push every nano second out of any track they race on without having to slow down a fraction. Its not like auto racing where you are expecting to combine braking and cornering. They are participating in a venue that is out of the norm, in the fact that performing to the accepted expecation is proving to be dangerous, and now fatal.

[valo403]

1964 was when Luge was first introduced to the Olympics and it weather was to blame for the accident. And actually only one person died at the Luge event, and one was a skier.

Hence my use of "one of them" :rolleyes:

Personally if I have been luging all my life and I felt there was a chance someone could die I would have said no and made a stink about it. No one did, including the athletes, because no one could have imagined someone flying over the edge like that.

It doesn't matter what someone could have imagined, the point is whether or not the designers SHOULD have imagined it. I don't know the answer to that, but the question isn't what people thought, it's what they should have been thinking.


Well if you think all sports are designed for an athlete to push 100% and not know his limits that is your issue and you don't really understand sports very well. This was a crash. Just happened to be a crash that turned into a freakish death.

This last part is just a golden example of ridiculous thinking. Every single competitor is going to push to get down the track as fast as possible, that's not even questionable. In doing so they will be on the very edge of a crash at numerous points, but world class athletes have the ability to generally avoid those crashes. The designers know all of this, and you obviously can't design a track that is both competitive and accident proof. The part that is somehow going over your head, and this is really quite stunning, is that the consequences of a crash on a properly designed track should never be virtually certain death. It's completely unacceptable.

[Barnes]

Since apparently some people wont click on links..

From Feb 6th Globe and Mail:

Early in the planning for the 2014 Sochi Games, the Russian hosts were told flatly by the sport's governing bodies: those speeds at the Whistler Sliding Centre? Don't even dream of trying to match them.

Holcomb has since claimed that the course was designed backward, with tighter turns near the bottom where sleds max-out the speed. And American luger Tony Benshoof told NBC: "When I first got on this track, I thought that somebody was going to kill themselves."

Whistler's reputation was established in November, 2008 when Loch damaged shoulder tendons in a crash and was one of three lugers hospitalized, and Canadian bob driver Pierre Lueders crashed in Corner 7, which was instantly named Lueders' Loop.

Turn 13 banks sharply to the left and sends the sleds into a horseshoe-shaped curve that slings them to the finish line. Two-time overall World Cup bobsleigh champion Steve Holcomb nicknamed it "50/50" after half the sleds crashed during the World Cup training run. Some track modifications since then will give the drivers a little more leeway going into it during the Olympics.

http://www.ctvolympics.ca/news-centre/newsid=39462.html?cid=rss

[pylon]

Then you can take your Thanks back and give it to Kermitology at the top of Page 6, where he posted it first. :whistle:

Phew, fixed.

[HOOT]

The part that is somehow going over your head, and this is really quite stunning, is that the consequences of a crash on a properly designed track should never be virtually certain death. It's completely unacceptable.

:rolleyes: I guess eye rolling is the only way to get your point across so I will add to your stupidity. Going over my head? Sorry I guess I just don't expect everything in life to be 100% safe or guaranteed that someone will come out alive.

You could have the most perfect track, on the most perfect day and someone could still get injured or killed by going at those speeds. Maybe they should dress the guys up in Luongo's pads before sending them down. Just in case.

I feel sorry for you that you think that something should be 100% certain of safety. You must live a very sheltered life. I'm done with this argument because it's going in circles. I believe things happen, you believe everything should be 100% guaranteed in life. Got it!

[Mike Oxlong]

RIP
Condolences to his family and friends and team mates.

What a terrible tragedy.

I don't want to get into the design/engineering debate but those metal beams there really make no sense. I just don't understand that at all.

[dre]

IMO, CTV and including CP should stop showing or posting links of this man's last seconds of life. Have some respect for his family. Its one thing reading about it, but showing a pictures or video of it is wrong. Imagine seeing your loved one on the news like that.

[dj_patm]

to the people saying don't cancel or move the event... When do we reach the magical # of deaths before we do?

One life is not enough? How bout 2? 6? 21?

What is the point of needles risk for sporting entertainment and to save some money. Move the thing. WHY NOT!?

[HOOT]

IMO, CTV and including CP should stop showing or posting links of this man's last seconds of life. Have some respect for his family. Its one thing reading about it, but showing a pictures or video of it is wrong. Imagine seeing your loved one on the news like that.

I've decided to take down my video. I had posted it before the man had died but now with things being official it is down.

[Coys1882]

to the people saying don't cancel or move the event... When do we reach the magical # of deaths before we do?No one is forcing these guys down the track - I bet if they left in the hands of the athletes - I'd be surprised if any of them packed up and went home.

[SteveToms]

to the people saying don't cancel or move the event... When do we reach the magical # of deaths before we do?

One life is not enough? How bout 2? 6? 21?

What is the point of needles risk for sporting entertainment and to save some money. Move the thing. WHY NOT!?

Shut up already, really.

[iggypop]

No one is forcing these guys down the track - I bet if they left in the hands of the athletes - I'd be surprised if any of them packed up and went home.

So that makes it right?

[dj_patm]

No one is forcing these guys down the track - I bet if they left in the hands of the athletes - I'd be surprised if any of them packed up and went home.

Really? I guarantee a few of them would.
Someone just died and there have been multiple crashes on a track that has been declared unsafe already.

But yeah why not! It's already there right? We'd have to drive all the way to Calgary... Meh. Lets take some more stupid risks.

Can you blame them for not wanting to back down? It's the olympics and they've been waiting their whole life for this. Dedicated their life for 4 years.

Move it for their safety.

[dj_patm]

Shut up already, really.

You are honestly the most useless poster on here. You never ever contribute to anything. You just make stupid jokes that were funny a week ago yet you still try and pull them.

Jesus. Take some of your own medicine.

[HOOT]

Can you blame them for not wanting to back down? It's the olympics and they've been waiting their whole life for this. Dedicated their life for 4 years.


So these last four years and more important than the rest of their lives?

[dj_patm]

So these last four years and more important than the rest of their lives?

Would you throw them away?

You're an olypmic athlete. Standing on the top of the track. You've worked for this moment so hard, the whole world is watching... Would you step back?

These athletes aren't in the right position to make this decision. Hopefully their coaches could talk them out of it but even then.

Why would you let them risk it? For some money and so the track doesn't go to waste?

If you're fine with that then whatever... I seriously hope the IOC, VANOC or the Luge federation doesn't think like that.

[valo403]

So these last four years and more important than the rest of their lives?

Rational thinking often doesn't enter into the equation in situations like this, people think 'well it won't happen to me'. I'm sure a few sliders would pull out, but I think the majority would continue on.

[pylon]

You are honestly the most useless poster on here. You never ever contribute to anything. You just make stupid jokes that were funny a week ago yet you still try and pull them.

Jesus. Take some of your own medicine.

Dj, your BS antics are once again derailing another thread.

And also, you calling out another poster as being "useless" is very, very pot / kettle'ish.

[dj_patm]

Dj, your BS antics are once again derailing another thread.

And also, you calling out another poster as being "useless" is very, very pot / kettle'ish.

Are you serious? I was debating this issue and he decided to chime in with that useless post.

WOW.

[malcolmk14]

There will be an investigation, the safety of the track will be examined, and professionals who have dedicated their entire life to this sport will make an informed decision on how to proceed. Who the hell are we to say what should happen?

A young man's life was taken abruptly today in a dangerous sport. If you think his peers, the IOC or VANOC or Luge Federation is going to take this lightly, you are mistaken.

[HOOT]

Rational thinking often doesn't enter into the equation in situations like this, people think 'well it won't happen to me'. I'm sure a few sliders would pull out, but I think the majority would continue on.

Sounds a lot like everyday life. Sure another person could die, but why can't another person die at another track? Is there a track out there where someone has never been injured? If they are getting injured it is dangerous, dangerous can also lead to deaths.

It's like shutting down a Deerfoot because people have been killed on it before.

[valo403]

Sounds a lot like everyday life. Sure another person could die, but why can't another person die at another track? Is there a track out there where someone has never been injured? If they are getting injured it is dangerous, dangerous can also lead to deaths.

It's like shutting down a Deerfoot because people have been killed on it before.

Where exactly did I say they should shut it down? Can you point that out?

BTW, next time you're a Deerfoot take a look at the center median, why do you think they installed that wire catch fencing?

[Methanolic]

Dj, your BS antics are once again derailing another thread.

And also, you calling out another poster as being "useless" is very, very pot / kettle'ish.


Not really "pot/kettle'ish" in response to: "Shut up already, really."

[HOOT]

Where exactly did I say they should shut it down? Can you point that out?

Sorry for just quoting you but I was replying to the group who want to move or cancel the event with my last sentence. I will try and note that for next time.


BTW, next time you're a Deerfoot take a look at the center median, why do you think they installed that wire catch fencing?

Why wasn't it always there? Because sometimes it takes someone getting injured or killed to learn a lesson.

[Burninator]

I have an engineering background. So from that perspective, I can say that from what I've seen, I see a poor design and a death that could have been prevented. That is my initial reaction, which I submit is just as valid and someone saying, no, everything was designed properly this is just a freak occurrence and nothing could have been done.Of course in retrospect it is easy to say that there is something wrong. However it's too easy IMO to say that "any idiot would know those columns shouldn't be there". (not saying you said that). I can't imagine that the engineers would have ignored those columns. I would assume that the most time spent on designing a course would be the calculations making sure the rider doesn't fly out of the course. But to be clear I am putting fault on anyone (luger or designer) because I don't know anything about it. But I would be very interested to hear an expert (luge designer) opinion.

[kermitology]

Sounds a lot like everyday life. Sure another person could die, but why can't another person die at another track? Is there a track out there where someone has never been injured? If they are getting injured it is dangerous, dangerous can also lead to deaths.

It's like shutting down a Deerfoot because people have been killed on it before.

I don't know about that.. The intended use of the track is to go fast down it. If the track is judged to be too dangerous, and it sounds participants are nervous about it, then it has design flaws. Sometimes that isn't found until after something really bad happens, but it doesn't change the fact that there are some pretty serious flaws.

[SteveToms]

You are honestly the most useless poster on here. You never ever contribute to anything. You just make stupid jokes that were funny a week ago yet you still try and pull them.

Jesus. Take some of your own medicine.

I made a joke? I just told you to shut up.