Historical Figures Draft Workshop Thread

[GirlySports]

Good suggestion by octothorp

Categories

Monarch
Politician
Warlord
Commander
Soldier
Mercenary/Vigilante
Religious figure
Philosopher
Writer
Artist
Composer
Scientist
Inventor
Explorer

I assume octothorp and berger are in

Need 10 more people :)

[Wood]

nm.

[octothorp]

yup, definitely in!

One question I'd have is how we determine who's eligible? Do they have to be currently deceased? Or is there a cut-off for when they're born? WWII era should definitely be included...

[GirlySports]

I would think they should be dead.

Can you be alive and still be a historical figure?

[Coach]

well arguments could be made for composers and inventors/scientists who are still alive

[Berger_4_]

Indeed Matty indeed. Verily, I believe some of thine categories be only for those sadly deceased, whilst others are left open for those still enjoying the aire of this realm.

But alas! Perhaps this method could'st be too difficult for thou to officiate? As a gentleman, I defer to thou.

[RougeUnderoos]

I'm in. Can I be in?

[Itse]

I'm in.

As expected, commentary on the categories:

Monarch
Politician
Warlord
Commander
Soldier

I have trouble setting those categories apart. I assumen you mean "commander" in the military sense, and that "soldier" means a fighter but NOT a commander, but warlord?

That seems too arbitrary, basicly just about any historical commander could also be a warlord and vice versa? I wouldn't want to go into definitions of formal armies as a separating factor, 'cause that can get messy.

How about Outlaw and Rebel as a categories? Some marvelous historical people there.

I don't see why mercenary and soldier need to be separate really.

Also wouldn't Scientist/Inventor be essentially the same thing, the difference being mostly formal/nonformal, which is again tricky when you go across history and different cultures.

Artist propably means visual arts (painting, sculpture, film, so forth), since you separated composer and writer as different categories? (just to make sure, nothing wrong with such a category, I'm just trying to figure them out). Although I think it might be best to not have that many categories so we can pull this the whole way through, and cutting out composer would seem simple enough, as it's just a type of artist anyway.

I'd add Thinker to Philosopher to cover the less formal leaders in thought.

My suggestion:

Monarch
Politician
Commander
Soldier / Mercenary
Vigilante / Outlaw
Rebel
Religious figure
Philosopher / Thinker
Writer
Artist
Scientist / Inventor
Explorer

[Superflyer]

I would like to be in on this as well but I am taking off for 2 weeks so I will miss out :whaa:

[octothorp]

I'm in.

As expected, commentary on the categories:

Monarch
Politician
Warlord
Commander
Soldier

I have trouble setting those categories apart. I assumen you mean "commander" in the military sense, and that "soldier" means a fighter but NOT a commander, but warlord?

That seems too arbitrary, basicly just about any historical commander could also be a warlord and vice versa? I wouldn't want to go into definitions of formal armies as a separating factor, 'cause that can get messy.


My thought is that a warlord is akin to a military dictator: both military and civil control over a nation or region, while a commander is simply responsible for military. The distinction is pretty clear in my mind, but maybe it's not that significant a distinction. I don't mind seeing them combined.


How about Outlaw and Rebel as a categories? Some marvelous historical people there.

I don't see why mercenary and soldier need to be separate really.



Outlaw was sort of what I was going for in the mercenary/vigilante category, but that word never occured to me. And I don't mind rebel as a category.



Also wouldn't Scientist/Inventor be essentially the same thing, the difference being mostly formal/nonformal, which is again tricky when you go across history and different cultures.



I see the difference as being that the inventor is known for producing tangible things, while the scientist is responsible for adding to human knowledge. Yeah, there's definitely some overlap, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, and there are just so many interesting figures in the two realms that it can definitely fill two categories.



Artist propably means visual arts (painting, sculpture, film, so forth), since you separated composer and writer as different categories? (just to make sure, nothing wrong with such a category, I'm just trying to figure them out).

Although I think it might be best to not have that many categories so we can pull this the whole way through, and cutting out composer would seem simple enough, as it's just a type of artist anyway.


Yeah, I was trying to think up a better word for this since artist is nebulous. Although I don't know about cutting out composer; there's just too many great figures from both disciplines.



I'd add Thinker to Philosopher to cover the less formal leaders in thought.



Great idea, totally agree.

[Wood]

Damn, I'm gone for the next week so I won't be part of this.

[Aeneas]

I would like to go in this one.

[troutman]

I would like to join this one.

Seems heavy on the military categories.

Other suggestions?

Poet
Woman (Wild Card)
Building/Structure/Architect
Medical
Legal/Jurist
Comedian
Athlete

This could be dominated by Western Europeans, so how about also;

Asian
African
Americas

[Yeah_Baby]

I'd join.

[driveway]

Still need people? I'd love to get in on this, and echo the comments about too much focus on military categories - troutman had some great suggestions for alternate categories.

[Aeneas]

I would like to join this one.

Seems heavy on the military categories.

Other suggestions?

Poet
Woman (Wild Card)
Building/Structure/Architect
Medical
Legal/Jurist
Comedian
Athlete

This could be dominated by Western Europeans, so how about also;

Asian
African
Americas
I like the emphasis on the martial aspect of history. Sadly that seems to be a strong point of our species. I think I would have trouble thinking of any "historical" figure to fit the above bolded categories.

Near half the original categories would fall into the arts and science.

[troutman]

Comedian might be tough - I was thinking of famous satirists.

Does "historical" include everyone ever born, or is there a cut-off date?

[GirlySports]

I think we're going to include anyone. Dead or Alive.

[Yeah_Baby]

I think we're going to include anyone. Dead or Alive.

Thats not as much fun.

[GirlySports]

Thats not as much fun.

So you want dead people only?

[Yeah_Baby]

So you want dead people only?

While I guess it doesn't totally matter. I just think it would be a bit harder if they had to be deceased. Therefore we can more accurately discuss historical context and influence.

[Itse]

I vote for dead people only.

I also second the notion of a female category here, and I like the idea of Comedian, although I'd call it Humourist to make it broader. (For example there are many very funny writers.)

My main reason I guess for questioning the need for all the different leaders/military is that it brings the category count up. As a more personal opition, I try to avoid taking the traditional conflict-driven view of history, and I'm with those people who think that military and political leaders all too easily gain everlasting fame for simply being in the right position at the right time.

[Berger_4_]

Yeah I think that's what is gonna have to go down. Otherwise it isn't really a historical draft right?

[octothorp]

Some interesting thoughts here.

My concern with humourist/comedian is that it's pretty specific to modern history. Most of the categories, you could find a good candidate from any century in the last 2000 years or more. With humourist, I think pretty much every selection would be 1800 or later. Yeah, there are a few writers you could point to from earlier periods, but in most cases they would be thought of as a writer or philosopher who used humour, as opposed to a humourist/comedian. Isn't a comedian simply a kind of writer who performs the work that he writes?

That said, I think Itse's point about military interpretations of history is valid. Perhaps this draft is a good candidate for using the same system we used in the lit draft, where you can trade categories, and stock up on the areas you think are important. Perhaps start with a breakdown of 1/4 military, 1/4 political/civil, 1/4 arts, 1/4 knowledge and invention. And maybe a couple wild-card categories like women (though I suggest that in reverence to Bill and Ted, they be called Babes).

Here's some revised suggestions, trying to take into account as many things as people have said in this thread as possible. I've tried to limit it to 20 categories:

Military:
Military Leader: can be a purely military leader, like a general, or a military/civil leader, like a warlord
Soldier: Can be from any rank, but someone who is recognized for what they did on the field of battle, rather than tactics
Vigilante/Outlaw/Rebel: Someone who challenged authority either as a leader or as an individual, and either for personal gain or out of principle
Military Wildcard

Political/Civil
Political Leader: Can be elected or non-elected, and at any level (municipal, regional, national, imperial).
Innovator: Someone who shaped history through their ideas about how societies and civilizations should operate. Could be another leader, could also be a civil planner, a judge, a lawyer, an architect, etc.
Humanitarian: Someone who helped civilization through politics, policies, or direct actions; could be used to pick someone in the medical community, for example
Political/Civil wildcard

Arts:
Writer: including playwright, poet, novelist, essayist, and storytellers; does not need to actually write, such as any word-based performer performing his/her own work.
Visual artist: painting, sculpture, tapestry, etc.; any form of art that is primarily appreciated through sight.
Composer/Musician: Can include either people who wrote music, or those who performed music written by themselves or others.
Artist Wildcard: any of the above, but can also include other mediums, such as acting

Knowledge / Ideas:
Inventor / Scientist: Someone who contributed to human knowledge and understanding either through theoretical science or through invention.
Explorer / Discoverer: Someone who contributed to human knowledge through discovery of the world around us, primarily through observation rather than deduction. So not only could you have someone who explored, you could also choose someone who cataloged species or rock formations.
Thinker / Philosopher: Someone who established a body of thought concerning the classic problems of philosophy, or other ideas.
Knowledge wildcard:

Additional Wildcards:
Women (Babes)
Eastern: any historical figure from 'eastern' cultures, including ottoman empire, persian empire, and east.
Southern Hemisphere: African, South American, Latin American, or Australian political figures
Living: Choose one living character who you think will be remembered as being historically important after they've died.

[Yeah_Baby]

While it remains to be seen if are only dead figures will be allowed. But if we follow octothrop's outline can Solider also include one that is relevant for a non combat role, ie Oliver North?

[driveway]

Can we get the category count down around 15? 20 is a hell of a lot of categories. My experience is that the more esoteric drafts tend to slow down a little the longer they go.

Octothorp's list is pretty solid, but I'd suggest eliminating "Rebel/Vigilante" as those selections could go into the "Soldier" category. Also winnowing down the wildcards to just one general wildcard would, I think, make things move quicker and would force people to be more decisive, and it would get the number of categories down to 16.

[GirlySports]

Yes it's dead people only.

[Yeah_Baby]

Can we get the category count down around 15? 20 is a hell of a lot of categories. My experience is that the more esoteric drafts tend to slow down a little the longer they go.

Octothorp's list is pretty solid, but I'd suggest eliminating "Rebel/Vigilante" as those selections could go into the "Soldier" category. Also winnowing down the wildcards to just one general wildcard would, I think, make things move quicker and would force people to be more decisive, and it would get the number of categories down to 16.

But then how are we going to debate about Louis Riel?

[octothorp]

While it remains to be seen if are only dead figures will be allowed. But if we follow octothrop's outline can Solider also include one that is relevant for a non combat role, ie Oliver North?

I think so; it should be up to the manager to say why this person is historically important.

[troutman]

Yes it's dead people only.

Finally, I can pick hotties from previous centuries!

[Yeah_Baby]

So when can we start? I'm kind of geeked up for the draft.

[GirlySports]

So when can we start? I'm kind of geeked up for the draft.

Soon but we only have 9 people

octothorp
berger
RogueUnderoos
Itse
Aeneas
Troutman
Yeah_Baby
Driveway

and MattyC (did you confirm yet?)

[Displaced Flames fan]

I'll join this draft if you don't already have a 10th...and if there is one pending, that's ok too. I don't HAVE to be in this one.

[GirlySports]

I'll join this draft if you don't already have a 10th...and if there is one pending, that's ok too. I don't HAVE to be in this one.


You're in! the 10th MattyC is pending :)

[Itse]

Can we get the category count down around 15?


Seconded.

Octothorp's list is pretty solid, but I'd suggest eliminating "Rebel/Vigilante" as those selections could go into the "Soldier" category.
[/quote]

Please no.

First of all, rebels are in general among the most significant historical individuals, as they tend to be the ones that really pushed history forward, unlike soldiers who rarely change anything. (There's not that many wars that in retrospect had a significan chance of going "the other way")

Second, many rebels are not soldiers.

[octothorp]

Well if we eliminate the first four wildcards (military wildcard, political wildcard, etc.) that would bring the list down to 16. Does that work for people? We could also eliminate the 'living' category to bring it down to 15.

[driveway]

I quite like the 'living' category, and I disagree that "many rebels are not soldiers", unless we're going to take a very broad interpretation of the word 'rebel' which would include people like Dillinger - and I'd still be cool with that going into the "soldier" category, taking a very broad interpretation of the word 'soldier'.

But if I'm getting voted down on this one, I'm okay with that.

One final suggestion; adding a "Despot" category to the Political/Civil category and eliminating "Innovator" or combining it with "Humanitarian" - "Visionary" was the category name that had occurred to me.

[troutman]

Four military categories is about three too many for me. Can we trade categories?

[octothorp]

Four military categories is about three too many for me. Can we trade categories?

Yeah, I suggested that in a previous post; I think it would really make sense for this draft, just because there are so many different interpretations of historical importance (as demonstrated by the passionate debate here in the workshop thread); it's probably ultimately the commissioner's call, as it'll require more work on her part to track those trades.

edit: One question I have is how we deal with people who are commonly cited as historical characters but who the historical record suggests may not have been a real person. There's at least one figure I was considering picking until a wikipedia search cast doubts on whether he actually existed.

[driveway]

I have a suspicion that I might know the figure you're thinking about so I won't throw his/her name out there, but I think that there are three ways to deal with the question.

One is to insist that all figures of questionable veracity be slotted into the Wildcard spot.

Another is to have the person choosing the figure make their case for why this personage should be considered of historical importance at the time the choice is made, even though they may never have existed. This case then to be accepted or rejected by the other members of the draft. This would slow things down, but I think it could work.

The third option is to make people of questionable veracity verboten in the draft.

Personally I like option two.

[octothorp]

I have a suspicion that I might know the figure you're thinking about so I won't throw his/her name out there, but I think that there are three ways to deal with the question.

One is to insist that all figures of questionable veracity be slotted into the Wildcard spot.

Another is to have the person choosing the figure make their case for why this personage should be considered of historical importance at the time the choice is made, even though they may never have existed. This case then to be accepted or rejected by the other members of the draft. This would slow things down, but I think it could work.

The third option is to make people of questionable veracity verboten in the draft.

Personally I like option two.

I agree, that's a good way to approach it.

[GirlySports]

I think we've always used option 2

[GirlySports]

MattyC is in so we're got our 10 people.

Categories

Military Leader
Soldier
Vigilante/Outlaw/Rebel
Political Leader
Innovator/Humanitarian
Writer
Visual artist
Composer/Musician
Inventor / Scientist
Explorer / Discoverer
Thinker / Philosopher
Women
Eastern
Below equator
Living
Wildcard

I'd like to start the draft at latest noon tomorrow.
No trading of categories.. that takes the fun out of it. If you struggle with a category, pick that category earlier or trade from another team for a person already picked in that category.

Questions to be answered:

Are the categories ok?

Snake or non-snake?

12 hour AK?

[troutman]

Are the categories ok? 10-12 is good - less military

Snake or non-snake? no snake

12 hour AK? 24 hr

[GirlySports]

Are the categories ok? 10-12 is good - less military

Snake or non-snake? no snake

12 hour AK? 24 hr

There's only 3 military categories.. how about combine military and political leaders?

[Aeneas]

Are the categories ok? 10-12 is good - less military

Snake or non-snake? no snake

12 hour AK? 24 hr
Gone from 4 "military" to 2. What more do you want?

[troutman]

Gone from 4 "military" to 2. What more do you want?

I think it is three - I might have a hard time with "soldier" but I can manage.

[octothorp]

I vote for no snake; I'm good with either 12 or 24 hour.

[RougeUnderoos]

Forgive me if I've missed it, but what are we "going for" here?

Say I were to pick "composer/musician".

Am I picking my favourite? Am I picking the one I think is most "important"? The most famous? Most influential? A combination of all of this?

If I were to pick Bowser from Sha-Na-Na in this spot, would I have to defend my choice? Can I get shouted down and my pick discarded?

[Itse]

Forgive me if I've missed it, but what are we "going for" here?

Say I were to pick "composer/musician".

Am I picking my favourite? Am I picking the one I think is most "important"? The most famous? Most influential? A combination of all of this?


I think the point is you find your own way of picking. ;)

[GirlySports]

It's all up to you, as long as you can defend your choice :)

[RougeUnderoos]

It's all up to you, as long as you can defend your choice :)

Okay thanks.

Will "he was in and Iron Maiden song" be considered a sufficient defense? That's really all I have to go on when it comes to history.