In God . . . . Americans trust, Canadians don't

[Cowperson]

Purloined from a Calgary Herald story today are these statistics, themselves taken from Michael Adam's "Fire and Ice: The United States, Canada and the Myth of Converging Values" which draws on a decade of research and was published one year ago.

Is it necessary to believe in God to be a moral person? - 58% of Americans say Yes compared to only 30% of Canadians.

45% of Americans now say they go to church every week, only 20% (down from 85 per cent in the 1950s) of Canadians do.

69% of Canadians believe heaven exists. 43% believe in hell and the devil.

81% of Americans believe in heaven. 70% believe in hell and the devil.

Do statistics like this explain the virtual necessity of any candidate in the USA to have an openly religious aspect to his candidacy while in Canada that might be a form of political suicide.

And why the difference in religious outlook among two countries whom many describe as being identical.

Cowperson

[Displaced Flames fan]

I don't think it's necessary for candidates to profess some sort of relationship with God to win here.

The 'go to church every week' numbers are the only numbers posted that would be used in determining that. Those are the folks that may be looking for something of that nature from a candidate.

For example....I believe in heaven and God (keep in mind these are not narrowly defined terms in my eyes) but I haven't been to church in well over a decade and have no plans to. I also don't believe a person has to believe in God to be what is commonly judged a moral person. I also believe that you don't have to go to church to be a good Christian or whatever your religion may be. I've often said that I attend the Church of Displaced Flames Fan (insert real name here).

So, a lot of the people saying they believe in God, do....but they don't dominate their lives with public showing of that faith....and as a result don't expect their candidates to.

You can see that less than half of the people polled in the US attend church every week. I'd suggest some of those were lying as well. And I'd also suggest that the number is decreasing on a fairly consistant basis.

Now, if a candidate were to come out and say he worships Satan or Jim Jones or something, he'd be in big trouble....almost equally a candidate who is a member of the clergy would never win here.....and that kind of disproves the whole theory anyway doesn't it?

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Aug 9 2004, 04:08 PM
I don't think it's necessary for candidates to profess some sort of relationship with God to win here.

The 'go to church every week' numbers are the only numbers posted that would be used in determining that. Those are the folks that may be looking for something of that nature from a candidate.

For example....I believe in heaven and God (keep in mind these are not narrowly defined terms in my eyes) but I haven't been to church in well over a decade and have no plans to. I also don't believe a person has to believe in God to be what is commonly judged a moral person. I also believe that you don't have to go to church to be a good Christian or whatever your religion may be. I've often said that I attend the Church of Displaced Flames Fan (insert real name here).

So, a lot of the people saying they believe in God, do....but they don't dominate their lives with public showing of that faith....and as a result don't expect their candidates to.

You can see that less than half of the people polled in the US attend church every week. I'd suggest some of those were lying as well. And I'd also suggest that the number is decreasing on a fairly consistant basis.

Now, if a candidate were to come out and say he worships Satan or Jim Jones or something, he'd be in big trouble....almost equally a candidate who is a member of the clergy would never win here.....and that kind of disproves the whole theory anyway doesn't it?
Well, to phrase it another way: "Would it work for or against a Presidential candidate in the USA if he flat out said: 'I believe in God but I haven't been to a church service in a decade?'"

Cowperson

[Displaced Flames fan]

Why would he say that though? You never want to give out any more information than absolutely necessary. I guess, in this instance, he would be responding to the question of attending church.

I don't know...it wouldn't turn me off at all. I'm sure there are some that it would turn off, but to be honest...all this talk about the USA being such a religious country makes me laugh. Maybe on Sundays (as long as it doesn't interfere with the NFL!).

Shouldn't we be much more friendly than we are if so many of us value faith so highly?

I would say it wouldn't hurt him...but I have absolutely no proof of that....just judging by what I think is a relatively low number of extremely religious folks here.

[octothorp]

Interesting question, Cow. Just thinking off the top of my head, but how much of this is a chicken-and-egg problem? To what extent do politics influence spiritual beliefs? If you have a constant stream of Christian leaders, are you more likely to believe that Christianity is a requirement for morality? If you have a constant stream of non-practicing leaders who do their best to speak of all religions as being equal, would you be more likely to believe that Christianity is not a requirement for morality? It's my perception that Americans care more about preserving their own identity--as opposed to Canadians, who are always uncertain and seeking to define our own identity--and so religion becomes an act of patriotism--though it's certainly not the only route: watching football is an act of patriotism, too!

[Displaced Flames fan]

Octothorp throws a curve into the discussion for me. God does not equal Christianity to me and I was answering all questions on that basis.

[Cowperson]

Interesting question, Cow. Just thinking off the top of my head, but how much of this is a chicken-and-egg problem? To what extent do politics influence spiritual beliefs? If you have a constant stream of Christian leaders, are you more likely to believe that Christianity is a requirement for morality? If you have a constant stream of non-practicing leaders who do their best to speak of all religions as being equal, would you be more likely to believe that Christianity is not a requirement for morality? It's my perception that Americans care more about preserving their own identity--as opposed to Canadians, who are always uncertain and seeking to define our own identity--and so religion becomes an act of patriotism--though it's certainly not the only route: watching football is an act of patriotism, too!

It's simply a fact that in the year or so after 9/11 that Americans turned more towards religion. I think there have been numerous studies on that. And certainly GW Bush was punching "God" into every speech he was giving.

Then again, its not like Pat Robertson has a chance in the USA. And a confirmed atheist wouldn't have a chance either.

So its somewhere in between.

The interesting number for me is probably the 58% of Americans who feel you must believe in God to be a moral person versus 30% of Canadians who feel the same way.

The USA election seems to have the "moral" or "values" issue come up more than we see in Canada - and that's just an opinion on my part not backed by much more than a feeling.

In order to demonstrate you are a "moral" person with "values" it seems the religious card comes more into play, which may be an appeal to the 58% or so who feel that's important.

Comments?

Cowperson

[octothorp]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Aug 9 2004, 05:07 PM
Octothorp throws a curve into the discussion for me. God does not equal Christianity to me and I was answering all questions on that basis.

Good point--narrow thinking on my part. Guess it was the second question about 'church' that made me think Christianity. But the question is then, who exactly does 'God' include in a question like this? Christian God only, Judeo-Christian God only, all Monotheistic religions (including Muslim), all all theistic religions, or all religions?

[troutman]

World religions listed by number of adherents:

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

Up to 14% of people world-wide identify themselves as "non-religious".

IN Canada:

http://religionstatistics.bravehost.com/statamer1.htm

30.000.000 inhab.
- Usual statistics range: 45-46% Catholic, 26-28-38% Protestant, 1.2% Jewish, 0.4% Muslim, 0.3% Hinduist.
- Data: In census of 1991, 12% Atheist or Agnostic, 0.6% Buddhist, 0.6% Hinduist, 0.9% Muslim, 1.2% Jewish,
0.5% Sikh, 83% Christian.
New statistic 2004: 8% Atheist, 11% Agnostic

[Cube Inmate]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Aug 9 2004, 09:04 AM
Is it necessary to believe in God to be a moral person? - 58% of Americans say Yes compared to only 30% of Canadians.

And why the difference in religious outlook among two countries whom many describe as being identical.

Thanks Cow...my favourite topic!

I've hilighted two of your questions that interest me most. As a confirmed atheist, I have to answer the first question with a resounding NO, that it's not necessary to believe in God to be a moral person...it's necessary to have had parents and a society that teaches you the difference between right and wrong. MAYBE more Americans fall back on the religious answer because their society does a poorer job of reinforcing morals -- just a thought, not necessarily the truth! Certainly many Muslim countries believe that American culture is immoral. Aside from their gun-craziness, I don't believe that.

Why the difference in religious outlook? Perhaps partly due to institutionalized religion in the US that is less prevalent in Canada. E.g., pledge of allegiance, presidents who constantly spout off their religion....but then again, these things may be a result of Americans' beliefs, rather than a cause (chicken and egg?). Maybe it's partly a holdover from the cold war when it was the Americans versus the "godless commies" that got religion so deeply ingrained in their psyche...? Whatever the case, that 58% statistic is scary.

[Cube Inmate]

An additional note...

I'd bet that of those 58% who believe that it's necessary to believe in God to be a moral person, MOST of them would believe that only a belief in their particular God is conducive to being a moral person...

What I'm saying is, how many Christians in the USA would agree that someone who believes in Allah is more likely to be a moral person? How many Muslims would agree with the reverse?

[troutman]

A Canadian book on the subject:

http://www.humanists.net/hic/books_otherpubs.htm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can We Be Good Without God?
an Exploration of Behaviour,
Belonging & the Need to Believe

by Robert Buckman
272 pp hc, Viking, 2000
ISBN 067089222X

Dr Robert Buckman, Humanist Association of Canada president, shows how ethics and religion can be separated, and how a code of ethics can exist without a deity. Dr Buckman thinks “the world will be a better place if we all believe whatever we wish, but behave as if there is no deity to sort out humankind’s problems.” His conversational writing style is a pleasure.