Blu-ray Vs. HD DVD not as close as expected... (Official- HD-DVD Dead)

[Juventus3]

Looks like it's safe to buy a Blu-ray player once the prices go down a bit with major retailers and Blockbuster both supporting the format over HD DVD.

http://news.com.com/8301-10784_3-9750763-7.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-5

I looked for the previous thread but a search of blu-ray and HD DVD both came up empty...

[I_H8_Crawford]

Didn't WalMart say they'd carry HD DVD?
And the Blockbuster announcement isn't that big... I bet most people use online movie rentals now, and Blockbuster will offer HD DVD for their online rental service.

I don't think it is decided yet.

[Bobblehead]

Well, HD-DVD stand alone players are outselling Blu-ray stand alone players. According to your article, 1.4 million of the 1.5 million Blu-ray players are in a PS3.

MS also announced a price drop on their external HD-DVD.

I think Blu-ray is starting to really get some steam, but it isn't a done deal. The adoption of HD players hasn't been as strong as expected, so until that occurs, anything can happen.

[I_H8_Crawford]

Well, HD-DVD stand alone players are outselling Blu-ray stand alone players. According to your article, 1.4 million of the 1.5 million Blu-ray players are in a PS3.

MS also announced a price drop on their external HD-DVD.

I think Blu-ray is starting to really get some steam, but it isn't a done deal. The adoption of HD players hasn't been as strong as expected, so until that occurs, anything can happen.
What's funny is I think the reason there hasn't been a larger adoption of HD players is the very fact that no one wants to get stuck with the "Beta" version of HD players... everyone (myself included) seems to be waiting for one to be declared a "winner" before jumping in ourselves...

[Bobblehead]

What's funny is I think the reason there hasn't been a larger adoption of HD players is the very fact that no one wants to get stuck with the "Beta" version of HD players... everyone (myself included) seems to be waiting for one to be declared a "winner" before jumping in ourselves...

Well, I also know some HD TVs have been obsoleted by some of the digital rights management implemented (specifically, the lack of HDMI in early sets). That is pretty much sorted out, but there are still glitches and some TVs have required firmware issues to work with Blu-ray (it sucks when you need to patch your fricking TV).:mad:

[greerb]

I have a Toshiba HD DVD player and absolutly love it. As said before HD DVD players are out selling BD players. If you don't count the PS3. I am waiting to buy a BD player when the prices are reasonable. And as long as there are exclusives for each type of disk there will be 2 formats for a long while.

[nfotiu]

It is not over until blu ray standalone players start selling. Until then, it is just a format that plays on a gaming system, and that is too much of a niche to be significant. I bought an hd dvd player a year ago, but I'm not married to the format. I only rent movies, so not a lot invested. HD DVD players just dipped below the $200 barrier in the US, and their great dvd up-scalers. They may start to fly off the shelves when people are picking them up instead of upscaler sd dvd players. Why not.

It is a silly format war anyway. Both are perfectly capable of putting an artifact free 1080p picture and lossless multichannel audio on a 5 inch disk. Any technical difference between the two won't affect sound or picture quality on even the most outrageously expensive equipment available today.

Who knows, online distribution will probably beat out both formats. The ftth internet I just switched to (like many others around here) is more than capable of delivering fully quality hdtv.

[Juventus3]

It is not over until blu ray standalone players start selling. Until then, it is just a format that plays on a gaming system, and that is too much of a niche to be significant. I bought an hd dvd player a year ago, but I'm not married to the format. I only rent movies, so not a lot invested. HD DVD players just dipped below the $200 barrier in the US, and their great dvd up-scalers. They may start to fly off the shelves when people are picking them up instead of upscaler sd dvd players. Why not.

It is a silly format war anyway. Both are perfectly capable of putting an artifact free 1080p picture and lossless multichannel audio on a 5 inch disk. Any technical difference between the two won't affect sound or picture quality on even the most outrageously expensive equipment available today.

Who knows, online distribution will probably beat out both formats. The ftth internet I just switched to (like many others around here) is more than capable of delivering fully quality hdtv.


I'll order one for 200 bucks....link?

[VanCity Cowboy]

Of the top 100 2007 (YTD) films;
47 are from Blu-Ray exclusive studios,
14 are HD DVD exclusive studios,
29 are dual-format studios and
10 are not supporting either format currently.

and given that blue ray exclusives have grossed 52%, compared to a 10% share for HD exlusives, Blue Ray has the edge.

I'm not sure it's as much about the hardware as it is about the studios that support each side. and it seems quite clear that Blue Ray studios are making the more lucrative movies.


http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9740033-1.html
http://blog.pixelperfectproductions.com/?p=54

[TurnedTheCorner]

I got an HD-DVD player this year so I could buy Heroes Season 1 in HD. Beyond that, I'm not married to the format. If it fails, I'll just get Bluray or the next HD format.

MS and Toshiba are basically willing to do everything necessary to keep HD-DVD afloat as far as I can tell. It may not "win", but I doubt it will disappear a la Beta, either.

I don't see how lucrative box-office translates into success for either format. I suppose you could make the leap that a higher box-office will mean more home sales, but what proportion of those sales will be in HD format vs. regular DVD? I don't know, either.

[Draug]

Well, HD-DVD stand alone players are outselling Blu-ray stand alone players. According to your article, 1.4 million of the 1.5 million Blu-ray players are in a PS3.


Of course the stand alone HD-DVD players are outselling the stand alone Blu-Ray players!

The best valued Blu-Ray player happens to come inside a PS3. Anyone in the market for a Blu-Ray player would be foolish to over look the PS3. It is cheaper than other stand alone Blu-Ray players, and you get the console for free. It is an especially great deal with the recent price drop and 5 free movies.

All that being said, 100,000 of the Blu-Ray players out there are stand alones. Only 150,000 of the 300,000 HD-DVD players are stand alones. 50,000 more stand alone units is nothing for HD-DVD supporters to brag about.

Really, Studio support is the key component in this format war. I imagine that the Studios will support whatever format sells the most discs. With Blu-Ray players outnumbering the HD-DVD players 5:1, I can only see Blu-Ray outselling HD-DVD. I think VanCity Cowboy's disc numbers support my assertion.

Personally, I think this war is over. It is only a matter of time until HD-DVD is a memory - just like laserdisc. It will stick around for a few years, especially with Microsoft behind it.

Well, I guess it could turn, but it would take an astonomical turn of events. Something like HD-DVD players being priced at $100, and at the same time, Blu-Ray players being unable to match that price point.

[ernie]

You can total up all the movies sold for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray since the formats came out and that number is surpassed by the single week sales of mediocre regular old DVD movie.

The formats can battle all they likes but the fact still very much remains they are BOTH losing the war to regular old DVD.. In fact they are getting absolutely hammered. Very few people care about viewing a movie in HD. The only care about the movie being good.

But a war isn't won this early. The movie attachment rate for HD-DVD is far higher than Blu-Ray. The number of stand alone HD-DVD players is greater indicating that when the public does go out looking for a moview player and thikns about making the switch they are leaning towards the cheaper technology. I wonder how many Blu-ray movies would have sold if PS3 owners actually had some games to spend money on. I'm guessing the movie totals would be much much less. You also have to keep in mind a couple of things:

-that the movie studio with the largest back catalogue of movies in the world is supporting HD-DVD. We never hear about it because it's a European studio but outside of North America that may have a big impact.

-the DVD players in peoples home just took over the number of VHS players in the US this past year. Getting people to change and commit to a change isn't easy.

- there are 150 million DVD players in the US alone. Blu-Ray even counting the PS3 and HD-DVD have a tremendously long ways to even be a competitor with DVD.

And to be perfectly honest I think the major competitor to these formats in a few short years will be digital delivery HD content.

[TurnedTheCorner]

I could see digital downloads further mudying the waters and ensure that no single format emerges as a dominant one.

[TheCommodoreAfro]

Porn went with HD-DVD. I'm always going to side with those naked freaks when it comes to choose a new personal viewing and distribution medium...

[TurnedTheCorner]

The internet is for porn, not physical media formats anymore. This isn't the 1980s. ;)

[mykalberta]

I dont really see the price of BR go down significantly in the long run. It will be alot like DVD players, SONY right now is lowering the patent commsion so that lowers the price. If they can kill HDDVD then those prices will skyrocket again until the pattent expires.

MYK

[The Yen Man]

In a way, I think MS is smart to include the HD DVD as an add on component rather than build it right into the Xbox360. That way, depending on how the format wars go, they could always switch if they need to. But I guess in Sony's case, since they're the ones who came up with the Blu Ray format, they would be sticking with it all the way.

[ken0042]

The thing that is different between this and previous format wars; is that it is now possible for one device to play both formats. I think we will end up seeing more hybris devices; and like the -R/+R format war with recordable DVDs, it will end up a draw.

[REDVAN]

I am going to wait until some oddball company illegally uses the technology and develops a player that can play all disc types. Also, that is basically what Ken said.

[TurnedTheCorner]

The thing that is different between this and previous format wars; is that it is now possible for one device to play both formats. I think we will end up seeing more hybris devices; and like the -R/+R format war with recordable DVDs, it will end up a draw.
I don't see combo players being economically feasible for a long time - even early adopters who are trying to future proof would get queasy looking at the prices. How much is the LG combo player going to retail for, if it ever hits the market? Or the Samsung one?

Didn't Warner Brothers come up with a disc type that will play in either player?

[ken0042]

Didn't Warner Brothers come up with a disc type that will play in either player?

I know HD-DVD also has the DVD encoding on the disc so it will play in legacy DVD players; allowing people to build up their collection before buying a player. I would think Blu-Ray would also include the DVD encoding.

So, would that not mean the seeing as a Blu-Ray player can play DVDs, if I were to stick in an HD-DVD, it would be able to play the DVD portion of it?

Note- anywhere in the preceeding post where I said "DVD" without the "HD" prefix, I am talking about the old style DVDs that have been around for 10 years.

[TurnedTheCorner]

Most of the HD-DVD/DVD combo discs I've heard of (haven't seen one) are supposed to be flippers. HD-DVD on one side, DVD on the other. So yeah, the DVD side should play in a Bluray player.

Here's (http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertainment/total-hd-disc-format-from-warner-bros-combines-bluray-hd-dvd-into-one-disc-225962.php) the WB format I was thinking of.

[Bobblehead]

Combo players are already here.

Samsung BD-UP5000. Set for release in Q4. Estimated price $1049 US
LG-BH100 Available now. Estimates Price $1199 US but can be found for less (http://www.amazon.com/LG-BH100-High-Definition-Blu-ray-Player/dp/B000NNK9LY/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-9412018-3375862?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1185551291&sr=8-1)

[TurnedTheCorner]

Didn't know they were already on the market, at least the LG one. But $1100? If people generally aren't interested in single format players, I can't see them being interested in a dual format player at that price.

[ken0042]

Well, $1100 is the starting cost; just as the current Blu-Ray/HD-DVD players once sold for that much and now are around $600.

[nfotiu]

HD DVD just pulled out a major coup today with the announcement that previously neutral Paramount/Dreamworks have gone HD DVD exclusive and Shrek 3 and Transformers will be HD DVD exclusive.
http://www.viacom.com/NEWS/NewsText.aspx?RID=1042073

[Bobblehead]

HD DVD just pulled out a major coup today with the announcement that previously neutral Paramount/Dreamworks have gone HD DVD exclusive and Shrek 3 and Transformers will be HD DVD exclusive.
http://www.viacom.com/NEWS/NewsText.aspx?RID=1042073

And suddenly we have ballgame.

Shrek is going to sell a ton of players.

[Regorium]

HD DVD just pulled out a major coup today with the announcement that previously neutral Paramount/Dreamworks have gone HD DVD exclusive and Shrek 3 and Transformers will be HD DVD exclusive.
http://www.viacom.com/NEWS/NewsText.aspx?RID=1042073

Holy crap. Transformers and Shrek 3 in time for the holiday season, + hopefully $150-$199 players. Things might start looking up again for HD-DVD.

The only reason I haven't jumped onto the Blu-ray bandwagon is because it's Sony. I got burned by their MD players ><

[alltherage]

Some examples of sony's failed "standards" (sony in blue)

VHS > Beta
MP3 Players > MiniDisc
MP3 > ATRAC
SD Memory > Pro II Duo (maybe not totally failed b/c sony still uses it, but noone else does.)
_______ > UMD (UMDs are being abandoned by almost every film production company.)

My prediction:

HDDVD > BluRay

Sony keeps trying to set an industry standard, which, if it takes off, is rediculously lucritive. Fact is though, given their atrocious track record, noone wants to buy in to Sony's "standards".

[OilKiller]

Holy crap. Transformers and Shrek 3 in time for the holiday season, + hopefully $150-$199 players. Things might start looking up again for HD-DVD.

Fantastic news!

This is a HUGE plus for HD DVD. Finally some good news for my format of choice.

[Flamescupbound!]

You can total up all the movies sold for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray since the formats came out and that number is surpassed by the single week sales of mediocre regular old DVD movie.

The formats can battle all they likes but the fact still very much remains they are BOTH losing the war to regular old DVD.. In fact they are getting absolutely hammered. Very few people care about viewing a movie in HD. The only care about the movie being good.


Well of course regular DVDs are outselling HD and Blu-ray, not many people have a 1080p TV. I'm sure when they become more mainstream, so will the HD and Blu-ray DVDs.

Working in service I go to customers houses all the time. Never once have I seen an HD-DVD, yet very frequently I'll see Blu-ray DVDs lying around, usually accompanied by a PS3. Just from this observation it looks to me like Blu-ray is kicking HD-DVD's ass right now.

[Draug]

HD DVD just pulled out a major coup today with the announcement that previously neutral Paramount/Dreamworks have gone HD DVD exclusive and Shrek 3 and Transformers will be HD DVD exclusive.
http://www.viacom.com/NEWS/NewsText.aspx?RID=1042073

FFS!

Earlier, I felt like Blu-Ray was running away with the game. I was hoping for a little more competition because competition will breed good products.

But, I hate the exclusive titles, on either side. All it will do is make people like me buy both formats, effectively negating the competition. I already have a PS3, but will buy a HD-DVD player (360) if this exclusivity goes any further. . .

Or, maybe 9gb downloaded rips of HD-DVD content will suffice.

Worse yet, what if a massive division of titles actually spells the end of HD at home movies? Too much division might end up with a tecnology that the mainstream consumer never supports because they are unsure of it. If the technology never sells, we'll be stuck with substandard DVD when there could have been something better.

[greerb]

HD DVD just pulled out a major coup today with the announcement that previously neutral Paramount/Dreamworks have gone HD DVD exclusive and Shrek 3 and Transformers will be HD DVD exclusive.
http://www.viacom.com/NEWS/NewsText.aspx?RID=1042073

That wil be great, Not only Transformers & Shrek, But Star Trek will be exclusive to HD DVD as well. Can we only hope for Jack Ass films as well? Also CBS TV titles should also be exclusive in this deal as well. With Fox lacking in realsing any BD movies I wouldn'd be too surprised if they either flipped or atleast go the TotalHD route like WB.

[mykalberta]

Hmmm, Transformers might actually force me into purchasing the HD-DVD player for the 360. I was thinking about it for 300 but Transformers might force my hand.

MYK

[Bobblehead]

Dreamworks is the one that has me excited.

Saving Private Ryan in HD would be awesome.

The Indiana Jones trilogy were all Paramount, as well.

[Draug]

Dreamworks is the one that has me excited.

Saving Private Ryan in HD would be awesome.

The Indiana Jones trilogy were all Paramount, as well.

From the linked article:
"Today's announcement does not include films directed by Steven Spielberg as his films are not exclusive to either format."

[Bobblehead]

From the linked article:
"Today's announcement does not include films directed by Steven Spielberg as his films are not exclusive to either format."


Hmmmm, I missed that.

Although it makes sense to say that since Spielberg released movies for a bunch of different publishers (Jaws was Universal, The Color Purple was Warner, etc).

But I would imagine Saving Private Ryan would be included here since it is a Dreamworks movie, and all the Indy movies were Paramount.

[alltherage]

Hmmmm, I missed that.

Although it makes sense to say that since Spielberg released movies for a bunch of different publishers (Jaws was Universal, The Color Purple was Warner, etc).

But I would imagine Saving Private Ryan would be included here since it is a Dreamworks movie, and all the Indy movies were Paramount.

Isn't Spielberg a part-owner of Dreamworks? I'm confused.

[Bobblehead]

Isn't Spielberg a part-owner of Dreamworks? I'm confused.

Yes, the full name is Dreamworks SKG.

Spielberg
Katzenberg
Geffin


But before forming Dreamworks, he was a director/producer and needed to get companies like Universal, Warner, et al to pay for production and/or distribution. So before Spielberg helped set up Dreamworks he has a bunch of movies by different distributors, some of which may release his films via Blu-ray.

I would guess that anything he has done since joining Dreamworks would be exclusively HD-DVD.

[MaDMaN_26]

I'm not sure I get it period... I have a nice DVD player with progressive scan, Component cables and a HD widescreen (5 year old rear projection) Toshiba TV... the picture when the source material is top quality is fantastic... I see absolutely no reason why I would jump to an expensive new format that I can't burn back ups for... IMHO the whole HD-DVD and Blu-ray is a bunch of B.S. to convince people they need something new, when in reality companies are just trying to get to a format that can't be pirated... most people don't have a good quality HD TV, if they do they probably don't have the right cables and/or DVD player...

That may not be true on this board but in general I think the majority of the population could get a whole new viewing experience just getting their DVD set up done right.

Additionally when DVD came out there was all these promises about how they could do multiple angles and this and that and million other things we would be amazed at, and other than a few releases most are not high quality transfers, have sound issues, have no multi-angle shots and very few special features... until we are at a point where every DVD is stuffed and we basically *HAVE* to have 2 discs in every release because the DVD is stuffed full of features... I'll pass.... I read something like 40% of PS3 owners didn't know it was a blu-ray player or what bluray was... I'm betting a whole crap load more than that knew it was a blu-ray player but would have bought it reguardless as they wanted a PS3.

I mean come on - Blazing Saddles recently came out on Blu-ray... did a 1974 western/comedy really need HD, and is the transfer some how amazingly better than the DVD version or is it just a cash cow, like all HD DVD/Blu-ray sans a select few will be, same as 80% of DVD releases today.

I think this is the war of suckers.

*edit*
As a FYI you can get any movie in DVD...

[ken0042]

Two points Madman:

- Have you seen a High Def format movie on your TV yet? If not; you might want to reserve judgement on wether its better or not.

- Also not sure what you mean by "can't burn backups." I'm positive there are blu-ray DVD burners out there now.

[Draug]

Madman:
- Have you seen a High Def format movie on your TV yet? If not; you might want to reserve judgement on wether its better or not.


I'll add to that you should have a 1080p HD TV, which one 5 years old would not be. An HD-DVD or Blu-Ray will look twice as good as a DVD on a 1080p TV. Also, with an increase in TV size, you must have better resolution; I cant imaging anything but 1080p (or maybe 720p) on a 65" Plasma - DVD would look horrible.

But, a Blu-Ray looks somewhat better than a DVD even on my Panasonic 42' EDTV plasma. I've done A/B tests to confirm that.

[Flamescupbound!]

I mean come on - Blazing Saddles recently came out on Blu-ray... did a 1974 western/comedy really need HD, and is the transfer some how amazingly better than the DVD version or is it just a cash cow, like all HD DVD/Blu-ray sans a select few will be, same as 80% of DVD releases today.

I think this is the war of suckers.

*edit*
As a FYI you can get any movie in DVD...

I think you're right about the older movies. The 1st few blu-rays I watched were older movies and I was dissapointed in the quality. This was till I watched a newer movie, Training Day, and was absolutely blown away.

Basically I will only be buying new releases on blu-ray from now on.

[photon]

I don't know, I've seen some movies in both HD and regular DVD and I think there's a pretty huge difference.

Proper viewing distance is important though, on a big screen I can see the compression artifacts from the DVD if I sit close.

Basically HD lets you have the same movie on a bigger screen and look good.

[MaDMaN_26]

Two points Madman:

- Have you seen a High Def format movie on your TV yet? If not; you might want to reserve judgement on wether its better or not.

- Also not sure what you mean by "can't burn backups." I'm positive there are blu-ray DVD burners out there now.

No I have not, being 5 years old it has enough lines of resolution for my DVD set up but does not do 1080p etc... Honestly I don't remember what my TV can do - it may be 1080i or maybe just 720... but I think DVD max's out at 500-600 ish...

Still if I watch a decent transfer the picture is really good, (same goes for some HD-TV shows or movies I get via Bell Satellite) I guess what I'm saying is I'm not sure the world needs these next gen HD discs yet... and ya if you can do a direct comparison (side by side or switching sources) I'm sure you will notice the HD is cleaner, but is it really needed? again I think 90% of the people do not have the tools to watch DVD's at full potential, and the studios constantly put out DVD's that do not live up to the potential of DVD (it's like they transfer from VHS sometimes)... I think the technology is being pushed because of piracy issues... There may be Blu-ray or HD-DVD burners but I think they are very expensive still and like DVD I'm sure they can't do the same capacity as the originals, e.g. with DVD you most like have to compress it in order to fit it on 4 gigs - as the original copy can be 8.5. - I can buy everything I need to Burn DVD's for around a hundred bucks...

The studios have yet to prove to me that they use every ounce of DVD space to make sure the quality is as good as it can be on DVD releases... on a few yes, but mostly its a cash grab, and I for one will not be spending thousands upgrading everyhting I own for a minute difference in quality so they can continue to under use the technologies potential and just grab my cash

[Bertuzzied]

No I have not, being 5 years old it has enough lines of resolution for my DVD set up but does not do 1080p etc... Honestly I don't remember what my TV can do - it may be 1080i or maybe just 720... but I think DVD max's out at 500-600 ish...

Still if I watch a decent transfer the picture is really good, (same goes for some HD-TV shows or movies I get via Bell Satellite) I guess what I'm saying is I'm not sure the world needs these next gen HD discs yet... and ya if you can do a direct comparison (side by side or switching sources) I'm sure you will notice the HD is cleaner, but is it really needed? again I think 90% of the people do not have the tools to watch DVD's at full potential, and the studios constantly put out DVD's that do not live up to the potential of DVD (it's like they transfer from VHS sometimes)... I think the technology is being pushed because of piracy issues... There may be Blu-ray or HD-DVD burners but I think they are very expensive still and like DVD I'm sure they can't do the same capacity as the originals, e.g. with DVD you most like have to compress it in order to fit it on 4 gigs - as the original copy can be 8.5. - I can buy everything I need to Burn DVD's for around a hundred bucks...

The studios have yet to prove to me that they use every ounce of DVD space to make sure the quality is as good as it can be on DVD releases... on a few yes, but mostly its a cash grab, and I for one will not be spending thousands upgrading everyhting I own for a minute difference in quality so they can continue to under use the technologies potential and just grab my cash


I find it hard to believe you can't tell the difference between 1080 lines of resolution and 480 lines of resolution on a regular dvd.

Can you see the difference between 240 lines of resolution on VHS and the 480 on the dvd?

[greerb]

No I have not, being 5 years old it has enough lines of resolution for my DVD set up but does not do 1080p etc... Honestly I don't remember what my TV can do - it may be 1080i or maybe just 720... but I think DVD max's out at 500-600 ish...

Still if I watch a decent transfer the picture is really good, (same goes for some HD-TV shows or movies I get via Bell Satellite) I guess what I'm saying is I'm not sure the world needs these next gen HD discs yet... and ya if you can do a direct comparison (side by side or switching sources) I'm sure you will notice the HD is cleaner, but is it really needed? again I think 90% of the people do not have the tools to watch DVD's at full potential, and the studios constantly put out DVD's that do not live up to the potential of DVD (it's like they transfer from VHS sometimes)... I think the technology is being pushed because of piracy issues... There may be Blu-ray or HD-DVD burners but I think they are very expensive still and like DVD I'm sure they can't do the same capacity as the originals, e.g. with DVD you most like have to compress it in order to fit it on 4 gigs - as the original copy can be 8.5. - I can buy everything I need to Burn DVD's for around a hundred bucks...

The studios have yet to prove to me that they use every ounce of DVD space to make sure the quality is as good as it can be on DVD releases... on a few yes, but mostly its a cash grab, and I for one will not be spending thousands upgrading everyhting I own for a minute difference in quality so they can continue to under use the technologies potential and just grab my cash

Actually DVD maxes out at 480i/p

HD-DVD video compared to DVD is nignt and day. If one has the TV for it it is a no brainer. Kinda like tose who have HDTV and still do not subsribe to HDTV with thier provider.

[Human Torch]

Here's an hd vs sd comparison shot thread. The pictures are pretty big so it will take a while to load: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=811102

[jammies]

I find it hard to believe you can't tell the difference between 1080 lines of resolution and 480 lines of resolution on a regular dvd.

Can you see the difference between 240 lines of resolution on VHS and the 480 on the dvd?

The big difference in quality between VHS and DVD relies more on the digital vs analog divide, just like tapes vs CDs. Even a poor DVD transfer looks better than the best VHS picture, however, a HD-DVD/Blu-Ray transfer poorly done is only marginally better than a DVD transfer poorly done. Especially in the case of older films, big money will need to be spent to clean up the film for transfer and process it appropriately into a digital format, and since most studios didn't do it (or at least, properly do it) with DVDs, I doubt very much they will spend the even larger amounts of cash and time it will take to make good HD video. I'd even bet that some transfers will just be upsampled DVD material no different than you could get with a decent DVD player now.

What I'd like to see are some comparisons of, say, shots from Casablanca or The Good, the Bad and the Ugly to see how much difference the two formats exhibit. All the shots I've ever seen are from recent movies, where the difference is noticeable, sure, but these are always best-case scenarios from pristine source material. I would suspect that for some older movies, the clarity of the format would only expose just how bad the original source looks, as even some DVDs already have done in the past.

In short, while the technical arguments are compelling, in real-world usage I think most people just don't see the benefit, because the benefits only accrue if you meet the following conditions:

- the source material has been properly digitized and cleaned up
- your television is both large-screen and 1080p capable
- the movie is visuals-dependent (do people watch comedies or classic films for the visuals? I think not)
- you have an viewing environment where you are at the right angle and distance from the television

I just don't see either format being compelling enough to overcome point #1, never mind the rest. People like me that bought hundreds of DVDs are not going to buy hundreds of HD versions of the same films, unlike when VHS collections were replaced, because the perceived extra quality is not nearly as dramatic as the the analog to digital conversion was (which is why the HD versions heavily promoted are almost always the new films), and thus a big driver of the sales for the players is missing and is going to remain that way for the next few years, if not longer.

[Tyler]

Just bought a blu ray player tonight.

I have both systems now, and was a bit disappointed with the current brd catalogue. Hopefully it gets better

[Cerebral]

Strange move by Paramount as Blu Ray is easily winning the format war so far based on all reports. Then again, it makes a little more sense when you see the money they received for going exclusive with HD DVD.

[TurnedTheCorner]

MS and Toshiba are basically willing to do everything necessary to keep HD-DVD afloat as far as I can tell. It may not "win", but I doubt it will disappear a la Beta, either.
I wrote that on July 26. Today is further evidence of this.

[Draug]

Yup . . . I cant really see it being in Paramount's best interest to commit to one technology. As a studio, wouldnt you want your movies distributed to the largest potential audience? Clearly, that is Blu-Ray at this point. Perhaps, you continue distributing on both platforms, but to commit to one seems crazy to me.

I sure would like to know what the deal between Toshiba/MS and Paramount consisted of. It would be mind boggling :)

[Cerebral]

I sure would like to know what the deal between Toshiba/MS and Paramount consisted of. It would be mind boggling :)
The number floating around is $150M but it sounds like there is a lot more to the deal than just cash. It would obviously have to be a huge deal as Blu Ray is undoubtedly selling better and has the larger market right now as well.

[TurnedTheCorner]

Yup . . . I cant really see it being in Paramount's best interest to commit to one technology. As a studio, wouldnt you want your movies distributed to the largest potential audience? Clearly, that is Blu-Ray at this point. Perhaps, you continue distributing on both platforms, but to commit to one seems crazy to me.

I sure would like to know what the deal between Toshiba/MS and Paramount consisted of. It would be mind boggling :)
Clearly, that is DVD at this point you mean. ;) Moves like this seem intended to ensure no single format (HD movie channels, HD PPV or On Demand, Blu-ray, HD-DVD, HD streaming) becomes an 800 lb. gorilla. To what end? I have no idea. I'm sure whatver the grand scheme is, it has been plotted with the best interests of consumers in mind though.

[LockedOut]

If HD and Blu-Ray players ever get to the price point that DVD players are at right now, I'm pretty sure that both formats will stick around and people will in the end eventually just buy both players or combo player as long as both formats are healthy at that time. It'll probably take awhile though before you can buy a cheap player for $40 at the Superstore or WalMart like you can a regular DVD player.

[MissKat]

If HD and Blu-Ray players ever get to the price point that DVD players are at right now, I'm pretty sure that both formats will stick around and people will in the end eventually just buy both players or combo player as long as both formats are healthy at that time. It'll probably take awhile though before you can buy a cheap player for $40 at the Superstore or WalMart like you can a regular DVD player.

Its taken DVD 8 or 9 years to get to the $40 price range. You will not see HDDVD or BR players drop to that price for a long long time. By that time, there will be something else out.

Also, only one will survive - not both. Why? Because todays society just wont accept having 2 formats. The average Joe dont care for it, and the market just wont allow it. Never in the past has two formats existed simultaneously (selling well that is!)

[ernie]

Sure there is a difference between regular DVD and HD. Absolutely. Plain as day.

But that difference does not make a movie better IMO. A good movie is a good movie and bad movie is a bad movie. No amount of picture clarity changes that. WHich is why until the prices for the HD format drop and people actually buy and USE HD TV's the regular DVD format will completly dominate (that's the key I know many many people who have a nice HD TV but don't have HD programming).

ON the paramount decision....It doesn't surpirse me at all that some companies will lean more to HD-DVD for a couple of reasons. 1) the attach rate is still higher for HD-DVD and 2) they do not need to change current manufacturing techniques unlike Blu-Ray whihc will require plants to completely switch over to new equipment. That will become a huge factor going forward for Blu-Ray if adoption of high def players continues to be slow.

[ken0042]

But that difference does not make a movie better IMO. A good movie is a good movie and bad movie is a bad movie. No amount of picture clarity changes that.

Yes, to a certain extent. However a good movie will draw you in, and with a good surround system you will be a part of the movie. Now take that same good movie, throw in some macroblocking, and all of a sudden you take yourself out of the movie for a sec while you become slightly annoyed at the compression artifacts on the screen.

Add to that the fact that a mediocre movie will be more enjoyable in HD than SD. As an example, I don't like baseball. But when I got my HDTV I sat and watched an entire game; simply because it was in HD.

[Bobblehead]

Clearly, that is DVD at this point you mean. ;) Moves like this seem intended to ensure no single format (HD movie channels, HD PPV or On Demand, Blu-ray, HD-DVD, HD streaming) becomes an 800 lb. gorilla. To what end? I have no idea. I'm sure whatver the grand scheme is, it has been plotted with the best interests of consumers in mind though.

Licensing.

If you use blu-ray, you pay licensing to one group, go HD-DVD you pay it to another.

VHS - JVC got the money
Beta - Sony
CD - Phillips
DVD - Toshiba

And now they are fighting over who will get the majority of fees from the next great format.

[Saint Troy]

Wow, pretty shocking development, can't underestimate microsoft's involvement in this, as they have been the bankroll for the format for some time. I have both formats, which are both brilliant, but I really thought everything I was reading was pointing to Universal caving and ending the HDDVD format. Though I did find it interesting that Samsung, a Blu-ray founder was making a combo-player, a bit of foreshadowing I guess.

[Bobblehead]

If it wasn't for the additional DRM on the Blu-ray discks, it would be the better format. It just holds more data.

But I am anti-drm, I believe it screws over honest users. So I am rooting for HD-DVD.

But rooting for Microsoft or Sony is like picking who you would prefer to kick you in the balls.

[MacDougalbry]

I am headed stateside in a week, and I am going to try to pick up an HD player while down there. I am hoping to pick up either a refurb A1 ($189) or new A2 ($259) or an XBox DVD player ($179) which can be hooked up to a PC, FYI. Both the A2 and the Xbox have a 5 free movie offer by mail, though you have to be American. (My sister lives down there, so I could always ship them to her.)

I don't get that so many people who have dropped $2K on HD TVs or projectors but are afraid to spend $200 on a HD-DVD player. That HD TV is a huge waste of money on a standard DVD player. I for one am not going to wait years for this to be sorted out. (However, I'm not planning on building a huge library of HD disks, the DVD-by-mail rental companies offer HD DVDs so I am going to try that route first.)

As for Blu-Ray, I have zero interest in buying a PS3. Also, I hate Sony with a passion. This is the company that is always trying to create its own proprietary formats. (Betamax, LaserDisc, 8mm Hi-8/Digital-8 video, Memory Stick, etc., etc..)

[KAI]

Is there a visual difference between the two?

[Bobblehead]

Is there a visual difference between the two?

Nope. They use the same video codecs.

On the audio side there are some slight differences. HD-DVD require some higher end audio codecs that are optional in blu-ray (Dolby TrueHD, and Dolby Digital Plus).

Oter differences: blu-ray can store more, and allows faster data transfer. Blu-ray has an additional level of DRM (called BD+).

Wikipedia has a good chart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_high_definition_optical_disc_formats ).

[photon]

I thought in practice all BD movies were using MPEG-2 and HDDVD was using the VLC1?

EDIT: Wikipedia says that BD movies are using VLC-1 more now...

[Canada 02]

Wikipedia has a good chart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_high_definition_optical_disc_formats ).from that chart, it says HD DVD is "Region Free". Does that mean my old foreign DVDs will play on a new HD DVD player? Will they play on some Blu Ray players, which evidently have only 3 different regions?

[greerb]

from that chart, it says HD DVD is "Region Free". Does that mean my old foreign DVDs will play on a new HD DVD player? Will they play on some Blu Ray players, which evidently have only 3 different regions?

No only HD DVDs a region free. that means the HD DVD that are available in Britain (ie. Harry Potter) you can purchase the disk from the UK and it will play in you NA HD DVD player. DVDs still go by region.

[Thor]

I was hoping this would be over quickly :(

It was annoying to watch the DVD vs DIVX fiasco, this HD/Blu-ray seems to be dragging on longer than I had hoped.

I think alot of people would be happy to just have it settled.

[ken0042]

It was annoying to watch the DVD vs DIVX fiasco,

Really? Because it didn't seem like to me that DIVX stood a chance. IMO DIVX only stood to benefit from the people who lived far away from major centres, and typically those people aren't early adopters of technology; never mind how few people live outside of urban areas.

Plus, my first DVD player supported both formats. (A circa 1998 RCA DVD player.)

[Bobblehead]

For people thinking about getting the HD-DVD player for the Xbox360, keep in mind that the XBox doesn't have HDMI. (a new version recently announced does include HDMI, I think)

If (when) studios start to turn on the Image Constraint Token (ICT) on movies then any player not connected via HDMI will scale down to 480p. Right now there is some sort of a backroom agreement not to use ICT, but it is part of the specification on both HD-DVD and Blu-ray.

[OilKiller]

No only HD DVDs a region free. that means the HD DVD that are available in Britain (ie. Harry Potter) you can purchase the disk from the UK and it will play in you NA HD DVD player. DVDs still go by region.

:D

Yep...I purchased the "Blu-ray" exclusive Terminator 2 online (France release) for HD DVD and am enjoying it very much. Region free is a great part of HD DVD!

[Barnes]

Michael Bay Throws a Fit Over Paramount, HD DVD Exclusivity (http://www.dailytech.com/Michael+Bay+Throws+a+Fit+Over+Paramount+HD+DVD+Exc lusivity/article8528.htm)

"I want people to see my movies in the best formats possible. For them to deny people who have Blu-ray sucks! They were progressive by having two formats. No Transformers 2 for me," exclaimed Bay on his official site (http://www.shootfortheedit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2299)."

[Cerebral]

Michael Bay Throws a Fit Over Paramount, HD DVD Exclusivity (http://www.dailytech.com/Michael+Bay+Throws+a+Fit+Over+Paramount+HD+DVD+Exc lusivity/article8528.htm)

"I want people to see my movies in the best formats possible. For them to deny people who have Blu-ray sucks! They were progressive by having two formats. No Transformers 2 for me," exclaimed Bay on his official site (http://www.shootfortheedit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2299)."



Bay is obviously just being a cry-baby right now but wouldn't it be interesting if he forced Paramount to choose between going HD DVD exclusive or Transformers 2?

[Vulcan]

For people thinking about getting the HD-DVD player for the Xbox360, keep in mind that the XBox doesn't have HDMI. (a new version recently announced does include HDMI, I think)

If (when) studios start to turn on the Image Constraint Token (ICT) on movies then any player not connected via HDMI will scale down to 480p. Right now there is some sort of a backroom agreement not to use ICT, but it is part of the specification on both HD-DVD and Blu-ray.

You sure about that? My understanding is the only difference between HDMI and the latest DVI is that HDMI carries sound. As long as the DVI is HDCP compliant on both ends, there is no problem. [That is, your source is HDCP compliant and your TV or monitor is HDCP compliant.] If there is, I've just invested in an HDCP compliant computer with an HDCP video card for nothing.

The problem seems to be whether the XBox with DVI is HDCP compliant. Further reading seems to say that the Xbox only has component outs. Yeah, component won't work properly if they turn on ICT. I can't believe the Xbox360 came out with a component connection.

[MaDMaN_26]

I find it hard to believe you can't tell the difference between 1080 lines of resolution and 480 lines of resolution on a regular dvd.

Can you see the difference between 240 lines of resolution on VHS and the 480 on the dvd?

If you’re going to quote me please at least read what I wrote... Not once did I claim I see no difference, in fact I specifically said that in a side by side comparison you would see a difference...

Actually DVD maxes out at 480i/p

HD-DVD video compared to DVD is nignt and day. If one has the TV for it it is a no brainer. Kinda like tose who have HDTV and still do not subsribe to HDTV with thier provider.

Yes I can see the difference between S-video VHS and component cable DVD set ups as well... My entire point is about questioning the need for HD. Ultimately any new technology, in this case either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD is going to be successful based on the public needing or wanting the new technology. As I said early I think a good majority of the population has not yet bothered to set up their DVD viewing optimally, they use RCA cables or S-video hell some still have a square TV and purchase full screen DVD's... a good majority of people can get an very good viewing experience by simply investing a couple hundred dollars in their DVD setups and not thousands... When we went from VHS to DVD there was a myriad of reasons for it - picture quality was only one of many that included never seen before and very cool special features (years later we still buy DVD's for their special feature content - many of us own multiple copies of the same movie for that very reason) DVD's had multiple audio tracks and subtitles in 3 or 4 languages as well as information or trivia sub-titles, Scene selection and high quality sound and of course never having to "be kind and rewind" again... plus it was plug and play you could get most of those benefits by simply buying the DVD player... and IF you wanted to get the rest you could upgrade other components at your leisure or as your budget allowed. The step up from DVD to HD offers a lot less (in most peoples minds, right or wrong, all it offers is better picture quality) yet it demands you upgrade alot if not all of your home theater in order to realize that benefit. There are many people including myself that are looking at their DVD picture and thinking (when the source material is actually the best it can be) it is just not needed (and I'm sorry but in those pictures Human Torch linked - I own King Kong and at no point is he and the girl fuzzy black and tan blobs, those pictures do not represent my DVD setup at all) that said IMHO who cares if I can't clearly count the wrinkles on Dumbledorfs face. So since a large majority of people have still not bothered to upgrade their DVD set up so that they get the best picture possible out of it they simply will continue to rent and buy DVD's and have no interest in a better picture, if they did they would have ditched the RCA cables years ago. Couple that with the fact that DVD's are released daily that have transfers way below 480 lines of resolution and that it seems like companies don't use the existing technology to its fullest potential anyway, why would I trust that they will do so for HD movies... they made all the same promises with DVD's release and now regularly “cash cow” releases with little regard for sound or picture quality and few if any quality special features...

I think everything I have said explains why HD-DVD has dropped its expected total player sales for the year from 1.8 million in North America to only 1 million and why they have only 300,000 units sold so far and I will say again Bluray really has only 100,000 players sold because counting 1.4 million PS3's is not a good representation of people that went out to get a Blu-ray player, many don't even know its a blu-ray player and I'd say a but load more simply wanted a PS3, the fact that it was blu-ray player is ok, but not something they would have bought separately, its like a free gift, just because you take it doesn't mean you like it, want it or support it - it was free.

I understand some people here have set their priorities to include a HD picture and there is nothing wrong with that, your passionate about it and that’s fine, I'm just saying I think both formats have a good chance of failing or taking a very long time to finally become something that’s mainstream... I wouldn't throw out your DVD player just yet.

At any rate I’m done ranting about this… if you want a HD player go nuts, if you think I a ###### for thinking it’s a complete waste of money and that it is being spoon fed to us as a “need” by large companies trying to stop their bottom dollar hemoraging due to piracy.

[czure32]

in the wake of paramount declaring HD excluisivity an announcment from 20th century fox regarding its blu-ray line up

http://www.comingsoon.net/news/movienews.php?id=36494

BD is the #1 selling high-definition packaged media. In fact, on a worldwide basis, BD is averaging nearly 70% market-share per week of all high definition titles sold this year and, in the U.S., it is out-performing HD DVD by a margin of 115%.

"Given that Blu-ray has consistently outsold HD DVD all year, and this is the case for any titles released by any studio in both formats, we believe that the time is right for us to accelerate our activities and help convert the nearly 60 million high definition households worldwide into Blu-ray households," noted Mike Dunn, President Worldwide, Twentieth Century Fox Home Entertainment.

[Neeper]

I wanted to get a HD DVD player for my Xbox. I guess I'll put it off for now. But for $200 its so tempting.

[OilKiller]

I wanted to get a HD DVD player for my Xbox. I guess I'll put it off for now. But for $200 its so tempting.

Why would you put it off now? HD DVD just got a HUGE boost. They'll be around for a long time and just added a LOT of titles to their exclusive catalogue with Paramount and Dreamworks exclusive to HD DVD now.

[MissKat]

I wanted to get a HD DVD player for my Xbox. I guess I'll put it off for now. But for $200 its so tempting.

You should get it, I mean look at all the great titles. 300, Matrix, Shooter, Hot Fuzz, Disturbia, TMNT, ...transformers and bourne ultimatum on its way for Oct. etc etc etc:whaa:

[foofighter15]

its pretty easy to figure out which one will win. Follow the porn. Whichever because the main format for Porn will win. Mark my words

[Bobblehead]

You sure about that? My understanding is the only difference between HDMI and the latest DVI is that HDMI carries sound. As long as the DVI is HDCP compliant on both ends, there is no problem. [That is, your source is HDCP compliant and your TV or monitor is HDCP compliant.] If there is, I've just invested in an HDCP compliant computer with an HDCP video card for nothing.

The problem seems to be whether the XBox with DVI is HDCP compliant. Further reading seems to say that the Xbox only has component outs. Yeah, component won't work properly if they turn on ICT. I can't believe the Xbox360 came out with a component connection.

Yeah, I'm sure. This is one of the ways of removing the "analog hole". The studios are afraid of someone putting a recording device in place of the TV.

http://www.digitalhome.ca/hdtv/idx/0/414/article/What_is_an_Image_Constraint_Token.html

[ernie]

Yes, to a certain extent. However a good movie will draw you in, and with a good surround system you will be a part of the movie. Now take that same good movie, throw in some macroblocking, and all of a sudden you take yourself out of the movie for a sec while you become slightly annoyed at the compression artifacts on the screen.

Add to that the fact that a mediocre movie will be more enjoyable in HD than SD. As an example, I don't like baseball. But when I got my HDTV I sat and watched an entire game; simply because it was in HD.

I'm not a HD movie virgin or anything. I just don't find that an HD picture in place of a good regular DVD player and good HD TV adds anything to the movie experience. Something like Surround sound does I agree but not the picture (EXCEPT for the Planet Earth series but not regular movies).

Sports is a different case...the advantage of HD is that you get that feeling of depth with the field and you have a larger view area where you can see the plays develop unlike the regular broadcast (if the HD broadcast is done properly).

[Vulcan]

Yeah, I'm sure. This is one of the ways of removing the "analog hole". The studios are afraid of someone putting a recording device in place of the TV.

http://www.digitalhome.ca/hdtv/idx/0/414/article/What_is_an_Image_Constraint_Token.html

I agree, analogue connections such as component won't work or will downgrade to a non HD resolution but DVI that is HDCP compliant will be fine. If I'm wrong then thousands of people building HD HTPCs are going to be buying new video cards and the video card makers are going to have to build new cards with HDMI out connections.

The nVidia 8600GTS and the ATI 2600 video cards are HDCP compliant and are specificly made for decoding HD and ahve DVI out. DVI is digital and the only difference from HDMI is that it doesn't carry sound. HDMI is only good for lessening your wire mess to your TV as no TVs that I've heard of carry decent sound. If you want a true HD experience, you have to connect a digital sound source to your stereo via toslink or other digital connection.

[Thor]

Really? Because it didn't seem like to me that DIVX stood a chance. IMO DIVX only stood to benefit from the people who lived far away from major centres, and typically those people aren't early adopters of technology; never mind how few people live outside of urban areas.

Plus, my first DVD player supported both formats. (A circa 1998 RCA DVD player.)

Being that the DVD standard was agreed upon by everyone, then near release a crappy electronics chain and an LA law firm decide they want to create their own format, yeah it was doomed from the start.

The big issue and reason for the anger everyone had back then is it slowed the release of DVDs from certain studios who thought DIVX might be a viable option over DVD. Divx was terrible, bare bones, and while as a novelty might have worked for some it was still a joke.

The Divx fiasco only slowed the early adoption of DVD, slowed/halted releases of DVD's from studios, so yeah it was a huge pain in the ass and those of us back then organizing writing campaigns were determined to make it go away fast as possible.

Least this time around you could see the Blu-ray vs HD DVD coming a mile away.

Anyways with the comment you bought a player that did both, you are voting with your dollars, especially back then.

This time around while our dollars count of course, I think this war is won in the back rooms and negotiations for the studios to choose sides.

But porn did choose HD, so that will be our winner if history is an indicator :D

[Cerebral]

its pretty easy to figure out which one will win. Follow the porn. Whichever because the main format for Porn will win. Mark my words
The porn industry sided with HD DVD early in the format war and it hasn't made a lick of difference so far. Just because porn was the deciding factor in Beta vs VHS doesn't mean the same will hold true for Blu-Ray vs HD DVD.

I would argue porn is an internet-driven industry at this point and that likely explains why it hasn't really given HD DVD much of an edge at all so far.

[oldschoolcalgary]

I think paramount's decision has a stale date, like 18 months or something...wouldn't surprise me if M$ offered a cash incentive to them to see if that would stem the tide of Blu-Ray...

I don't think porn will make that much of a difference - the internet affords a level of anonymity which is way better than going to a store to buy porn...secondly, a lot of pornstars are really, really concerned with the HD technology because it will show a lot more flaws (anyone who has seen silicone bouncing knows it is not a pleasure thing, even on VHS its nasty)...

on another note, I thought some genius figured/patented technology that would allow you to have both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray on a single disc? It was double sided, but a good idea...

[Bobblehead]

I think paramount's decision has a stale date, like 18 months or something...wouldn't surprise me if M$ offered a cash incentive to them to see if that would stem the tide of Blu-Ray...

I don't think porn will make that much of a difference - the internet affords a level of anonymity which is way better than going to a store to buy porn...secondly, a lot of pornstars are really, really concerned with the HD technology because it will show a lot more flaws (anyone who has seen silicone bouncing knows it is not a pleasure thing, even on VHS its nasty)...

on another note, I thought some genius figured/patented technology that would allow you to have both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray on a single disc? It was double sided, but a good idea...

They did - they received $150 Million. Although that is being described as for cooperative marketing.

Ars Technica has an interview with the CTO of Paramount about this decision.
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070822-reasons-financial-and-technical-lurk-behind-paramounts-hd-dvd-coup.html

[Draug]

More interesting news, this time from Warner . . . If they side with HD-DVD, then Blu-Ray is done. If they side with Blu-Ray, then we'll have two formats for a long, long time. Of course, Nickerson stepping down could mean nothing as far as HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray goes - But, he was a huge advocate of HD-DVD.

"A senior vp at Warner, Nickerson was arguably the most visible executive in the high-def disc space, and a passionate cheerleader for the studio's dual-format stance.

Coming only days after Paramount (the only other dual-format supporting studio) announced that it would back HD DVD exclusively, news of Nickerson's exit is already raising a few eyebrows, with speculation swirling that perhaps Warner is also considering changing its format-neutral stance."

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Warner/Warners_High-Def_Disc_Guru_Exits_Post/893

[ernie]

The porn industry sided with HD DVD early in the format war and it hasn't made a lick of difference so far. Just because porn was the deciding factor in Beta vs VHS doesn't mean the same will hold true for Blu-Ray vs HD DVD.

I would argue porn is an internet-driven industry at this point and that likely explains why it hasn't really given HD DVD much of an edge at all so far.

Porn wasn't the deciding factor with the VHS vs Beta war. It was that Sony vigorously protected it's IP with Beta and refused to allow third party manufacture of the item. No such problmes with VHS which was mass produced by several companies and dropped the price significantly compared to Beta. The Porn industry likes to think they are deciding factors when it comes to these things but even by their own inflated numbers they only account for 1-2% of DVD/VHS sales and rentals.

If porn were to decide any war it would be the war of these DVD formats vs digital delivery.

[alltherage]

I would say that regardless of the way this battle goes, Tangible Media is likely on it's last legs.

[The Yen Man]

its pretty easy to figure out which one will win. Follow the porn. Whichever because the main format for Porn will win. Mark my words

Seriously though, although that might have been true in that past, the fact that porn is now so easily accessable through the Internet has probably weakened that argument. Why rent when you can just download? Not that I know either way of course... :whistle:

[Table 5]

I would say that regardless of the way this battle goes, Tangible Media is likely on it's last legs.

They'be been saying that for 20 years now.

[jamesteterenko]

If porn were to decide any war it would be the war of these DVD formats vs digital delivery.

I would say that regardless of the way this battle goes, Tangible Media is likely on it's last legs.

Seriously though, although that might have been true in that past, the fact that porn is now so easily accessable through the Internet has probably weakened that argument. Why rent when you can just download? Not that I know either way of course... :whistle:

So, if I combine what I hear you guys saying is:
Bluray vs HDDVD is not the real war. The war is tangible vs. digital delivery
Porn is primarily going through digital delivery
Digital delivery will overcome tangible delivery soonSo, porn is leading the way for the next format, and it is not HDDVD or Bluray. It is digital delivery. That I believe. I don't have much desire to pick up either an HDDVD player or a Bluray player. I do have an HD PVR. It is amazing and I would recommend it to anyone. I wonder how sales of those compare to either of the tangible delivery players.

James.

[Bobblehead]

Here is another thought on the issue:Market researchers reckon that most—90% by some reckoning—of Blu-ray discs are played on PS3 consoles. But Hollywood’s studios now realise they can’t pin the future of their precious video sales (today one of their main sources of revenue) on a game console that has failed to ignite widespread interest outside a dedicated circle of hard-core gamers.


http://economist.com/daily/columns/techview/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9689600

[TurnedTheCorner]

I will fold on to tangible media as long as possible. Considering digital content needs to be backed up and archived anyway. Which is one of the annoying things about PVRs - they're awesome until you're forced to delete some stuff.

Would people buy TV shows on DVDs if they could back up HD PVR copies? I'm pretty certain the answer is no.

[Bobblehead]

I will fold on to tangible media as long as possible. Considering digital content needs to be backed up and archived anyway. Which is one of the annoying things about PVRs - they're awesome until you're forced to delete some stuff.

Would people buy TV shows on DVDs if they could back up HD PVR copies? I'm pretty certain the answer is no.

Which is exactly why most PVRs will not allow you to save content to another computer.

The published reasons are that they don't want to allow piracy, and while I'm sure that is a consideration, I believe the real reason is they don't want to harm the futue DVD sales. Which is a valid reason from a business point of view, but not one which they can enforce with the anti-circumvention provisions in the DMCA (in the US).

[TurnedTheCorner]

Moving content from PVRs would be a double edged sword. Piracy would be a real concern, as it would also effect potential sales. Even if people didn't share the material, you'd still lose a potential customer.

Having said that, even if my Bell 9200 didn't crap out on me twice causing me to lose the early recordings of Heroes, I would still buy that set on the 28th. The show sold me an HD-DVD player.

[ernie]

Here is another thought on the issue:


http://economist.com/daily/columns/techview/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9689600

Really that reasoning just goes to the attach rates of the stand alone players which HD-DVD is winning hands down. The HD movie buying public at this point seems to favour the HD-DVD lineup. Those people with a PS3 gaming console collecting dust because there are too few games are buying some Blu-ray movies to pass the time. ONce (if?) the games start coming to the PS3 those people stop buying movies and start buying games.

To sum up the article and the current state of things:
-Blu-ray has more capacity so more features and uncompressed sound may be a possibility. With that comes increased work for the movie release and increased cost to the consumer relative to a HD-DVD movie, if Blu-ray adds those extra features.
-like the PS3 in general Blu-ray is a pain to develop for and program. It requires extra resources yet the end price of the product can not be more than HD-DVDs at this time. Less profit.
-HD-DVDs can essentially be produced in todays fabs. Blu-ray needs at a minimum a complete retro-fit or even complete replacement of equipment. That's a HUGE cost once again limiting profitability. Be interesting to also see the equipment foot prints, productivity etc.
-Hd-DVD is going the interactive route which may draw people in.

the war is far from over for these formats. but really even taking the combined movie sales of the formats since inception they are nothing compared to one week of regular old DVD sales. Both formats have a LONG way to go to overcome regular DVD and then they also have to fend off the digital delivery challenge.

[ernie]

edited my post and added to it...seems to have double posted the original somehow without any changes.

[Bobblehead]

Haven't read the article yet but really that reasoning just goes to the attach rates of the stand alone players which HD-DVD is winning hands down. The HD movie buying public at this point seems to favour the HD-DVD lineup. Those people with a PS3 gaming console collecting dust because there are too few games are buying some Blu-ray movies to pass the time. ONce (if?) the games start coming to the PS3 those people stop buying movies and start buying games.

I just recall when the PS2 first came out, it was really expensive and people justified the cost becaue it could be their game system and a DVD player. You can still see DVD remotes for the PS2 for sale. I see a similar trend occuring here. People justifying the cost because it also has a Blu-ray player.

The article linked, as well as a few others I've read, have also touched on the point that the cost to produce a blu-ray disk is much higher than the cost to produce HD-DVD (which can be created on retro-fitted existing equipment).

And even thoug people are touting that Blockbuster is only renting Blu-ray, that isn't entirely true. Blockbuster, the world’s largest video-rental chain, announced that, in future, it would stock only Blu-ray discs in its 1,450 local branches. After all, two out of three customers had been renting Blu-ray titles. Henceforth, HD DVD versions would be available only at Blockbuster’s 250 main stores and through its online service.

So I believe the war is far from over.

I've always thought the studios deciding what format they release their movies in would be the deciding factor, but even that appears to be in flux, with studios appearing to be waiting to see which format the public embraces.

The Christmas sales season may be very interesting.

[TurnedTheCorner]

I wonder about the Blockbuster stance, given the Paramount/Dreamworks announcement. Blockbuster won't rent Shrek 3 in HD at most of its stores?

[Draug]

Here is a GREAT article on the subject. Really makes the point that NOTHING happening so far for these formats is significant. Because they are totally in their infancy, anything can and still will happen.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Joshua_Zyber/Commentary:_A_War_of_Hype,_and_Paramounts_Big_Bomb shell_/921

[Vulcan]

Which is exactly why most PVRs will not allow you to save content to another computer.

The published reasons are that they don't want to allow piracy, and while I'm sure that is a consideration, I believe the real reason is they don't want to harm the futue DVD sales. Which is a valid reason from a business point of view, but not one which they can enforce with the anti-circumvention provisions in the DMCA (in the US).

The bottleneck in recording HD signals from your Set Top Box or Satellite reciever to your computer is the tuner card which doesn't carry a Digital input that is HDCP. They can be recorded but only in analogue, unless you record from OTA with an ATSC tuner. Since there are no OTA TV stations in most of Canada, most of us are out of luck. I'm sure the technology is there to have an HDCP compliant DVI or HDMI input on these cards, but the powers that be won't allow it.

I understand HD Shaw recievers can record HD to a computer via firewire though.

[MacDougalbry]

I suggest that anyone who is considering buying either format get more familiar with HDCP (High Definition Content Protection.) With this copy protection scheme, you cannot play HD-DVD or Blu Ray discs on your HD TV or projector unless it has both HDMI and HDCP. If you attempt to connect using the component video out, you will get a downconverted regular DVD signal. Not sure how many discs are currently being sold with HDCP on them. Think about what this means, though... now you've got to buy a new TV/projector and a new home theatre receiver as well. It'll take a looooooooooong time for either format to catch on with this sort of adoption costs.

[Bobblehead]

I suggest that anyone who is considering buying either format get more familiar with HDCP (High Definition Content Protection.) With this copy protection scheme, you cannot play HD-DVD or Blu Ray discs on your HD TV or projector unless it has both HDMI and HDCP. If you attempt to connect using the component video out, you will get a downconverted regular DVD signal. Not sure how many discs are currently being sold with HDCP on them. Think about what this means, though... now you've got to buy a new TV/projector and a new home theatre receiver as well. It'll take a looooooooooong time for either format to catch on with this sort of adoption costs.

That's not true, as long as ICT is not enabled you can still see HD through the other connectors.

Once ICT is enabled, you will be correct.

And Vulcan, currently the analog capture cards will grab the signal to your hard drive. It takes pretty good precessing power, but it is being done (lots of people on the Myth TV mailing list are doing it). There are some capture card that will accept the digital signals, but only if the signals are not encrypted (which are very few).

[nfotiu]

Another possible momentum builder for HD-DVD with a $99 Toshiba player at wal-mart (US).
http://holiday.ri-walmart.com/?section=secret

[ken0042]

Wow. If that DVD player is still on sale when I go down to the States in a few weeks, I know what I'm bringing on the plane for carry-on.

[Dr. Evil]

Fox and Disney are BluRay exclusive. Now Warner is hinting they will do the same. $99 players aren't going to turn the tide for HD. When the best selling HD-DVD disc is being put down by that film's director and he wants it released on BluRay, Paramount is only shooting themselves in the foot.

[ernie]

Fox and Disney are BluRay exclusive. Now Warner is hinting they will do the same. $99 players aren't going to turn the tide for HD. When the best selling HD-DVD disc is being put down by that film's director and he wants it released on BluRay, Paramount is only shooting themselves in the foot.

both formats remain insignificant and will continue to do so for quite some time. The sales of the best selling Blu-ray and HD-DVD disc is dwarfed by even the worst movie on regular DVD.

Movie sales are about a 60:40 split right now for Blu-ray...certainly not numbers you win a format war with. And there are on going rumblings that Fox and Disney may soon support HD-DVD as well.

The end result is that at this time it is very much a niche market and if it remains a niche market for an extended period of time, there is a good chance manufacturers are going to choose the technology that fits the current factory footprints and can be retrofit into current production technology. That is the huge feather in HD-DVDs cap that may allow them to win the war.

[MaDMaN_26]

Fox and Disney are BluRay exclusive. Now Warner is hinting they will do the same. $99 players aren't going to turn the tide for HD. When the best selling HD-DVD disc is being put down by that film's director and he wants it released on BluRay, Paramount is only shooting themselves in the foot.

In addition to what Ernie said, you have to admit a $99.00 player certainly doesn't hurt HD-DVD stance in the game. e.g. just becuase you have a PS3 doesn't mean you pretty much have to support Blu-ray, for 99 bones you can go with HD-DVD if it tickles your fancy.

I personally am still not moving formats until I can't get anything on DVD anymore. Blu-ray and HD are still irrelavant and unecesary at this time in my mind.

[nfotiu]

Fox and Disney are BluRay exclusive. Now Warner is hinting they will do the same. $99 players aren't going to turn the tide for HD. When the best selling HD-DVD disc is being put down by that film's director and he wants it released on BluRay, Paramount is only shooting themselves in the foot.
Funny, Warner has been quoted as saying that they want to see if sub-$200 players at wal-mart spur software sales over the holidays before picking a side.

They've also said that a format must extend beyond video game platforms to be viable. Blu-ray has not shown that they are anything but the second coming of UMD so far.

Thirdly, Warner has been favouring hd-dvd if anything so far, with better soundtracks, more extras, and even some hd-dvd only releases.

[Agamemnon]

In addition to what Ernie said, you have to admit a $99.00 player certainly doesn't hurt HD-DVD stance in the game. e.g. just becuase you have a PS3 doesn't mean you pretty much have to support Blu-ray, for 99 bones you can go with HD-DVD if it tickles your fancy.

I personally am still not moving formats until I can't get anything on DVD anymore. Blu-ray and HD are still irrelavant and unecesary at this time in my mind.
Jeez I don't know how irrelevant HD is... when I watch normal tv on my (hd)tv it looks horrible... DVD's are pretty good, but HD-DVD blows reg DVD out of the water in my opinion. I even watch King Kong on HD over and over even though I hate the movie... it came with my player and it looks stunning compared to anything else I've ever seen on tv. Also HD XBOX/PS3 are crazy... heads and shoulders above SD.

[ernie]

Jeez I don't know how irrelevant HD is... when I watch normal tv on my (hd)tv it looks horrible... DVD's are pretty good, but HD-DVD blows reg DVD out of the water in my opinion. I even watch King Kong on HD over and over even though I hate the movie... it came with my player and it looks stunning compared to anything else I've ever seen on tv. Also HD XBOX/PS3 are crazy... heads and shoulders above SD.

By and large for a movie the make or break has nothing to do with picture or sound. It has to do with the acting, directing and script. For some reason I don't much care about the HD movie experience compared to regular DVD. I do care about regular TV vs HDTV. I figure the reason is because the jump from a decent DVD player on a decent HD TV up to HD-DVD (or blu-ray) is not as significant as regular TV to HDTV which I sort of compare to what would be like to go from VHS to HD-DVD (or Blu-ray).

People have to care about HDTV first before going HD for movie viewing and surprisingly few people have HDTV channels. They are perfectly content with an HDTV and good digital cable feed.

btw. do you watch regular TV channels on your HDTV using a cable box or with the cable plugged directly into the TV? If you plug the cable directly into the TV you should get similar or better quality compared to the same on a regular TV. At least I do. If you watch those channels through a cable box they will look like crap.

[MaDMaN_26]

Jeez I don't know how irrelevant HD is... when I watch normal tv on my (hd)tv it looks horrible... DVD's are pretty good, but HD-DVD blows reg DVD out of the water in my opinion. I even watch King Kong on HD over and over even though I hate the movie... it came with my player and it looks stunning compared to anything else I've ever seen on tv. Also HD XBOX/PS3 are crazy... heads and shoulders above SD.

You misunderstand me, HD it self is not irrelevant, I think these two new formats are... I have High def satellite and love sport on it. I rarely watch any non-HD shows any more... that said I watch all my movies on DVD and I think the picture is great.


I have said it before so I won't go into a huge rant but I think there are sooo many people that do not even have a DVD set up properly to take advantage of the lines of resolution available to them on that format, many do not even have widescreen TV's or HD inputs or progressice scan or Component cables etc.. etc... Companies have continuously put out movies on DVD that are of very poor quality not utilizing even the capabilities of the existing format, poor sound or video transfers etc... and now they want me to believe that they will not cash grab and that this *NEW* shiney, can't be copied, format will always be utalized to it's fullest potential... B.S.

Until everyone has DVD set up right, and companies *truly* need more room on DVD's, not that having a second disc with special features is that big of a deal to me, I'm out. I will not buy their *new* format just because they don't want me to have the ability to make a back up of my movie. Your fooling yourself if you think there is any reason beyond piracy (and greed, hence format war) that is driving these new formats to the market... it certainly not need. I think the appathy that most consumers have greeted HD-DVD and Blu-ray with is proof of that.

[nfotiu]

By and large for a movie the make or break has nothing to do with picture or sound. It has to do with the acting, directing and script. For some reason I don't much care about the HD movie experience compared to regular DVD. I do care about regular TV vs HDTV. I figure the reason is because the jump from a decent DVD player on a decent HD TV up to HD-DVD (or blu-ray) is not as significant as regular TV to HDTV which I sort of compare to what would be like to go from VHS to HD-DVD (or Blu-ray).


All depends on the size of your tv. My first hdtv was a 34", and I would agree that dvd's looked fine. When I went to a 100" projector and a 50" plasma, dvd's started looking pretty crappy to the point where it is kind of a distraction now (especially on a poor quality dvd) to watch movies on dvd. And even more distracting is cable/broadcast hdtv compression artifacts that seem especially prevalent in action movies.

[MaDMaN_26]

All depends on the size of your tv. My first hdtv was a 34", and I would agree that dvd's looked fine. When I went to a 100" projector and a 50" plasma, dvd's started looking pretty crappy to the point where it is kind of a distraction now (especially on a poor quality dvd) to watch movies on dvd. And even more distracting is cable/broadcast hdtv compression artifacts that seem especially prevalent in action movies.


That helps my point, only someone that know what "cable/broadcast hdtv compression artifacts" means really wants or "needs" Blu-ray or HD-DVD. people who have 100" projection screens and 50" Plasma's obviously care about their veiwing to the point where it makes a difference to them. 90% of the population, maybe more, are not like nfotiu.

[mykalberta]

I have no idea what this will do if anything, but Gizmodo (WebbAlert) is reporting the the copy protection scheme on BluRay has been cracked.

[Bill Bumface]

What percentage of the North American population even owns an HD TV? I would guess less than 50%.

[Azure]

I have no idea what this will do if anything, but Gizmodo (WebbAlert) is reporting the the copy protection scheme on BluRay has been cracked.

Only a matter of time.

[Draug]

The copy protections of both blu-ray and hd-dvd are cracked, and have been for a long time. You can easily find complete images of both formats on the groups already.

[SarichFan]

Can you find HD-DVD burners though? I know you can Blu-Ray.

[MaDMaN_26]

The copy protections of both blu-ray and hd-dvd are cracked, and have been for a long time. You can easily find complete images of both formats on the groups already.

ya but still - <$600.00
http://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/PID-MX15394(ME).aspx
or
< $50.00
http://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/PID-MX16356(ME).aspx

For now, although it won't be long before the whole point of these new formats is moot, at least from the corporations perspective... but we will be able to burn at full resolution which is nice because today unless you use dual layer, you must compress at least some of the DVD usually.

It's like the RIAA, DEA etc... good luck with that... there must be a better way to spend billions....

[MaDMaN_26]

Can you find HD-DVD burners though? I know you can Blu-Ray.

Just did a quick search but if this is true then it can't be impossible...

http://www.tech.co.uk/computing/mobile-computing/notebook-accessories/news/rewritable-hd-dvd-drives-coming-to-laptops?articleid=1747657928

[Dr. Evil]

both formats remain insignificant and will continue to do so for quite some time. The sales of the best selling Blu-ray and HD-DVD disc is dwarfed by even the worst movie on regular DVD.

Movie sales are about a 60:40 split right now for Blu-ray...certainly not numbers you win a format war with. And there are on going rumblings that Fox and Disney may soon support HD-DVD as well.

The end result is that at this time it is very much a niche market and if it remains a niche market for an extended period of time, there is a good chance manufacturers are going to choose the technology that fits the current factory footprints and can be retrofit into current production technology. That is the huge feather in HD-DVDs cap that may allow them to win the war.

How much more did VHS outsell DVD in the year or so after launch? There are reasons people aren't moving up to HD media, and 2 formats is one of them. Go to your local Futureshop or Best Buy and ask the "knowledgable" employees there about both formats, and see what info you get from them. Half of them can't even tell you what 1080p vs 1080i means, or that there is a difference. The guy who treid to sell me a BluRay player told me I should check out Transformers in HD, it's soooo amazingly cool.

Disney and Fox are NOT EVEN CLOSE to thinking of adopting HD-DVD, and at the BluRay expo recently Warner reps were making comments about viewing the 4th quarter results to pick a side. Funny that they started off as HD-DVD exclusive, then adopted both, and now are talking at a BluRay event about picking one "winner". Furthermore, the $99 Toshiba HD-DVD player is going to all but hit the final nail into the HD-DVD coffin. It's a product dump, and at below manufacturing cost, as a last ditch effort to get people to buy in to their camp. Hit the consumer with a blazing deal of a player for 99 bucks, but then tell them they can't watch Cars or Rattatoulie in HD, and forget about Spider-man. So now they just dropped 99 bucks for another DVD player, though it upconverts (if they know what that means and how to use it) fairly well. Between the 150 million payout of Paramount and now selling players for less than it costs to make them how exactly is HD winning anything?

Read the Bits if you don't want to take my word for it. Take it from the guys who live and breath this stuff, and have looked at the entire "War" from the outside making their opinions and judgements by what they seeing going on. They actualy like the HD-DVD format, but called it long ago as the loser and each new event in the war further proves it.

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents

It boggles the mind to think that any reasonable person can still believe at this point that the HD-DVD format represents a viable long-term business. Even if Toshiba's strategy has the desired effect (which seems primarily to be garnering splashy headlines in the press), what do they ultimately win? A tie? The best case for HD-DVD, even if Warner were to be so impressed by this sale that they go HD exclusive, would be to effectively create a 50/50 split in terms of studio support. In other words, a total quagmire. High prices were the number one reason most surveyed consumers cited for staying away from high-def discs in the recent NPD Group survey (http://blogs.consumerreports.org/electronics/2007/10/despite-format-.html?EXTKEY=I72RSE0), but the existence of two competing formats was not far behind. And just as many people who said that price was their chief concern also said that they're happy enough with current DVD to have no interest in upgrading to high-def discs anyway. So all this seems to be more a battle waged for the press and PR spin than the actual hearts and minds of consumers.


Also to try and argue that because currently consumers don't have enough HDTV's is rather stupid. Once analog TV is gone and people are forced to upgrade even their 13" B&W tv's they will suddenly realize their DVD movies don't look as good as their TV broadcasts. Might not happen tomorrow, but it is coming and a lot sooner than many people think. Hands up for those here who run on a 286 with 4 megs of RAM...... thought so.

[Kjesse]

Bill Hunt of the Digital Bits has spent a lot of his reputation pushing Bluray, and he's been paying for it. He was THE guy back when dvd was making its push in 1997/1998, but now he's just another hack picking sides.

I don't care who wins this format war, though at this rate they'll both lose. To suggest blu-ray somehow is inevitably going to win based on current trends is as stupid as when the HD crew proclaimed their early lead was a sign of things to come.

The end result is, the majority of consumers refuse to buy in. These little discs (HD, blu ray, and standard dvd) will all be obsolete in 5 years anyway, I look at my massive dvd collection and wonder what I was thinking. Besides a few top titles, my purchases were a complete waste.

[Dr. Evil]

Bill Hunt of the Digital Bits has spent a lot of his reputation pushing Bluray, and he's been paying for it. He was THE guy back when dvd was making its push in 1997/1998, but now he's just another hack picking sides.

I don't care who wins this format war, though at this rate they'll both lose. To suggest blu-ray somehow is inevitably going to win based on current trends is as stupid as when the HD crew proclaimed their early lead was a sign of things to come.

The end result is, the majority of consumers refuse to buy in. These little discs (HD, blu ray, and standard dvd) will all be obsolete in 5 years anyway, I look at my massive dvd collection and wonder what I was thinking. Besides a few top titles, my purchases were a complete waste.

So you are an expert then? Gotta love how everyone tosses around the term hack with absolutely no credibility of their own. Hunt hasn't just picked sides, he and his site have evaluated everything that's gone on. From the begining they were actualy more inpressed with HD-DVD. But I guess he's just a hack now like anyone else who's got so much time invested in the subject :rolleyes:

[Thor]

Bill Hunt of the Digital Bits has spent a lot of his reputation pushing Bluray, and he's been paying for it. He was THE guy back when dvd was making its push in 1997/1998, but now he's just another hack picking sides.

I don't care who wins this format war, though at this rate they'll both lose. To suggest blu-ray somehow is inevitably going to win based on current trends is as stupid as when the HD crew proclaimed their early lead was a sign of things to come.

The end result is, the majority of consumers refuse to buy in. These little discs (HD, blu ray, and standard dvd) will all be obsolete in 5 years anyway, I look at my massive dvd collection and wonder what I was thinking. Besides a few top titles, my purchases were a complete waste.

I was part of the online war way back then with the DVD vs Divx war which was an absolute joke/insult to the consumers.

Good guys won back then, now its harder to pick sides. I think unlike back then when it was much easier to choose sides now its about most early adopters angry that they can't just pick a format and move on.

We got all the electronic companies back then to agree to a DVD format, then last minute DIVX appears. Now they won't even try to find common ground and ultimately the consumer loses as we have to delay the advance of this format and people waste money on either formats.

Its ridiculous this still keeps going. :bag:

[ernie]

How much more did VHS outsell DVD in the year or so after launch? There are reasons people aren't moving up to HD media, and 2 formats is one of them. Go to your local Futureshop or Best Buy and ask the "knowledgable" employees there about both formats, and see what info you get from them. Half of them can't even tell you what 1080p vs 1080i means, or that there is a difference. The guy who treid to sell me a BluRay player told me I should check out Transformers in HD, it's soooo amazingly cool......

continuation of some sort of rant.......

BTW you're little quote says pretty much exactly what I said.

"And just as many people who said that price was their chief concern also said that they're happy enough with current DVD to have no interest in upgrading to high-def discs anyway. So all this seems to be more a battle waged for the press and PR spin than the actual hearts and minds of consumers."

People don't care.

[Bobblehead]

Well, contrary to the original post of this thread, I'd say HD-DVD is starting to edge ahead.

K-Mart announces it will NOT carry Blu-ray this holiday season.
http://www.betanews.com/article/Kmart_Dumps_Bluray_Due_to_Price/1193854397

[MaDMaN_26]

So you are an expert then? Gotta love how everyone tosses around the term hack with absolutely no credibility of their own. Hunt hasn't just picked sides, he and his site have evaluated everything that's gone on. From the begining they were actualy more inpressed with HD-DVD. But I guess he's just a hack now like anyone else who's got so much time invested in the subject :rolleyes:


From the guy who can't spell Secret...

[Burninator]

So you are an expert then? Gotta love how everyone tosses around the term hack with absolutely no credibility of their own. Hunt hasn't just picked sides, he and his site have evaluated everything that's gone on. From the begining they were actualy more inpressed with HD-DVD. But I guess he's just a hack now like anyone else who's got so much time invested in the subject :rolleyes:
But experts are not the ones that choose which format wins this war. It's the consumers. Maybe I've got Tipping Point (http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/Tipping-Point-How-Little-Things-Malcolm-Gladwell/9780316346627-item.html?ref=Search+Books%3a+%2527tipping+point%2 527) on the brain, but one of these formats needs something to push it over the edge. Now I've only very loosely followed these formats. But for all intensive purposes they are basically in a tie. One isn't dominating yet. You may disagree, but why are their movies that I can only buy in HD-DVD and others in Blu-Ray? Clearly one hasn't taken over. It's interesting that you saw the cheap Toshiba players as a product "dump" I saw it the complete opposite. Mass produce your new product and sell it on the cheap to get more people to buy your format. The more people that have your product will buy your format. I'm not buying a Blu-Ray player for several hundred dollars when I can buy a HD one for $100. But back to my original point. One of these products needs something to push it ahead of it's competition. I've haven't seen anything yet for either product, but maybe this cheap player will be that tipping point for HD-DVD.

[RyZ]

I'm in the camp that thinks that consumers just don't care enough about HD content to make this an issue right now. Outside of internet message boards I have never even heard a single person talk about HD movies. Not even my video game junky friends.

The fact is that to 99% of the common population, HD-DVD and Bluray don't offer enough of a jump for people to buy new hardware and ditch their old SD-DVD collections. People aren't ready for it yet. The companies pushing the tech should save some $$$ and not jump in for a couple of years yet. Not until at least 75%+ of the TV sets out there are HD to begin with.

[Juventus3]

I'm in the camp that thinks that consumers just don't care enough about HD content to make this an issue right now. Outside of internet message boards I have never even heard a single person talk about HD movies. Not even my video game junky friends.

The fact is that to 99% of the common population, HD-DVD and Bluray don't offer enough of a jump for people to buy new hardware and ditch their old SD-DVD collections. People aren't ready for it yet. The companies pushing the tech should save some $$$ and not jump in for a couple of years yet. Not until at least 75%+ of the TV sets out there are HD to begin with.

TBQH, it doesn't matter what people want. Corporate America decides what people buy, not the people. Within 2 years or so one of these formats will come out on top, and we'll start to see movies come out just on the HD format, and not at all on DVD. Just like VHS, cassette, vinyl (well you can still buy those), etc.

[Bobblehead]

I'm in the camp that thinks that consumers just don't care enough about HD content to make this an issue right now. Outside of internet message boards I have never even heard a single person talk about HD movies. Not even my video game junky friends.

The fact is that to 99% of the common population, HD-DVD and Bluray don't offer enough of a jump for people to buy new hardware and ditch their old SD-DVD collections. People aren't ready for it yet. The companies pushing the tech should save some $$$ and not jump in for a couple of years yet. Not until at least 75%+ of the TV sets out there are HD to begin with.

C'mon, don't you want to see "The Bert" in HD?

[TurnedTheCorner]

It can't be stressed enough that Bill Hunt is a foaming at the mouth lunatic. No one should get that worked up over a "format war". He makes videogame fanboys look like sensible, measured, reasonable people.

[Dr. Evil]

From the guy who can't spell Secret...

Oh, are you trying to insult my dyslexia that pops up when I attempt to type fast? Gee, classy.

HD-DVD being the only format at K-Mart means very little. It's FAR from any sort of edge when K-Mart won't be selling HD versions of Cars, Pirates, Spider-man etc. People in the US will just go to Walmart then.

Soon enough people will care. Thinking otherwise is rediculous. If you don't believe there's enough of an advantage between DVD and either HD format you haven't seen them demonstrated properly. Furthermore, as I previously stated, when your local news looks so much better than your brand new DVD you are going to care.

Cheaper HD-DVD players aren't going to win HD-DVD anything. To begin, they aren't selling all HD players for 99 bucks now, only one model. At that they are only selling the ones they have already made and could not sell for $500. Furthermore, the supply isn't near as massive as the advertising leads you to believe. When you don't get to the store first thing the morning of the sale and end up not getting a player at all, that's going to hurt the HD reputation. When the supply is gone and players are again $300+ then what? It's a firesale to move product that can't be sold for the price it should be. Add to that the problems with all the HD-DVD/DVD combo discs and consumers are getting shafted.

[Bobblehead]

HD-DVD being the only format at K-Mart means very little. It's FAR from any sort of edge when K-Mart won't be selling HD versions of Cars, Pirates, Spider-man etc. People in the US will just go to Walmart then.
...where they are selling the Toshiba HD-DVD player for less than $100 (older model) or the more recent HD-A3 for $199 (with 7 movies).

Agree that the Disney are a big motivator for people to get Blu-ray, but since Blu-ray players aren't supposed to drop below $400 I would think people would believe the difference between a cartoon on DVD or High-Def isn't worth $200.

Soon enough people will care. Thinking otherwise is rediculous. If you don't believe there's enough of an advantage between DVD and either HD format you haven't seen them demonstrated properly. Furthermore, as I previously stated, when your local news looks so much better than your brand new DVD you are going to care.
And this is just arguing DVD vs High-Def. I'm not sure I would go as far as you, but with the hastening demise of CRT TVs, the dropping prices of LCD, and the conversion of the US TV spectrum from analog to digital in '09 (which will probably spur a bunch of TV replacements, even though set-top boxes will be supplied) I think HDTV will invade living rooms faster than previous technological changes.

[SarichFan]

DVD will not be replaced in my opinion. But this HD market will be niche for years to come.

[Bertuzzied]

Well, contrary to the original post of this thread, I'd say HD-DVD is starting to edge ahead.

K-Mart announces it will NOT carry Blu-ray this holiday season.
http://www.betanews.com/article/Kmart_Dumps_Bluray_Due_to_Price/1193854397


Wow K-Mart is the turning point? i should just donate my ps3 to the electronics recycling program. hehe.

Maybe if walmart stopped carrying blu ray players it might have more of an impact.

Oh and kmart is still carrying bluray dvds. just not the players. actually that is false too they are still selling ps3s.

Anyone want to goto Woolco with me tonite?

[Bobblehead]

Wow K-Mart is the turning point? i should just donate my ps3 to the electronics recycling program. hehe.

Maybe if walmart stopped carrying blu ray players it might have more of an impact.

Oh and kmart is still carrying bluray dvds. just not the players. actually that is false too they are still selling ps3s.

Anyone want to goto Woolco with me tonite?

No, but when a major retailer does something like this because they feel blu-ray is too expensive then it can't be a good thing for blu-ray.

This thread was started with the announcement that Blockbuster wasn't going to carry HD-DVD movies. That turned out not to be true.

And Walmart is selling some HD-DVD players for less than $100. There has been a lot of press about HD-DVD lately, what with Paramount and Dreamworks going HD-DVD exclusive, sub $100 HD-DVD deals, K-mart not stocking Blu-ray. There hasn't been much positive Blu-ray news lately. I while people buying a PS3 are definitely using them as blu-ray players, I'm not sure how many people going out and looking for a high-def player are considering a PS3. That's something Sony should leverage more in their advertising.

I don't own either format (yet). I'm just watching what is going on.

[The Yen Man]

In a biased way, I want Blu-ray to win, just because I'll be buying PS3 regardless of which one wins. But in the end, it won't really matter that much to me, as worst case scenario, I'll buy an HD DVD player to along with my PS3. No biggie.

[llama64]

While I don't really care either way since it will be a few years till I buy a HD capable TV, I'd like to see Sony bite the dust again. I'd rather they didn't have much say over the media in which content is distributed. As a company they have demonstrated they are decidedly against consumer liberties.

[Cerebral]

While I don't really care either way since it will be a few years till I buy a HD capable TV, I'd like to see Sony bite the dust again. I'd rather they didn't have much say over the media in which content is distributed. As a company they have demonstrated they are decidedly against consumer liberties.
So you would rather support Microsoft and their involvement with HD DVD? :blink:

[Bertuzzied]

No, but when a major retailer does something like this because they feel blu-ray is too expensive then it can't be a good thing for blu-ray.

This thread was started with the announcement that Blockbuster wasn't going to carry HD-DVD movies. That turned out not to be true.

And Walmart is selling some HD-DVD players for less than $100. There has been a lot of press about HD-DVD lately, what with Paramount and Dreamworks going HD-DVD exclusive, sub $100 HD-DVD deals, K-mart not stocking Blu-ray. There hasn't been much positive Blu-ray news lately. I while people buying a PS3 are definitely using them as blu-ray players, I'm not sure how many people going out and looking for a high-def player are considering a PS3. That's something Sony should leverage more in their advertising.

I don't own either format (yet). I'm just watching what is going on.

I highly doubt Kmart is considered a major reatailer. How many of their customers are actually going to buy a $200 hddvd player? i think 99.9% would be buying the $29 china brand dvd player.

Besides they are still selling a blu ray player(PS3) and they are still selling blu ray movies also. Just not the $500 sony blu ray stand alone

The Blu-ray Disc camp still had one foot in the door of Kmart, however, as the retailer stocks and sells the PlayStation 3. Kmart also sells the HD DVD add-on for the Xbox 360.

I don't really care who wins as I bought my ps3 to play dynasty warriors and to watch my videos in hd from my camcorder.

My friend is all into this bluray/hddvd war, so i went to his house last week to watch transformers. hahahahahaha His xbox360 hddvd player is incompatible with his amp so we had an awesome picture but the sound was horrid. it was all crackly and low. It was like watching one of those downloaded camcorder movies! too funny.

hmmm he still owes me $50 on the wii couldn't beat xbox360 sales by the end of the year. hehe

[Bertuzzied]

So you would rather support Microsoft and their involvement with HD DVD? :blink:

hahahaha no kidding. do you like the redsox or the yankees?

[Draug]

No, but when a major retailer does something like this because they feel blu-ray is too expensive then it can't be a good thing for blu-ray.

This thread was started with the announcement that Blockbuster wasn't going to carry HD-DVD movies. That turned out not to be true.

And Walmart is selling some HD-DVD players for less than $100. There has been a lot of press about HD-DVD lately, what with Paramount and Dreamworks going HD-DVD exclusive, sub $100 HD-DVD deals, K-mart not stocking Blu-ray.There hasn't been much positive Blu-ray news lately. I while people buying a PS3 are definitely using them as blu-ray players, I'm not sure how many people going out and looking for a high-def player are considering a PS3. That's something Sony should leverage more in their advertising.

I don't own either format (yet). I'm just watching what is going on.

It is actually FALSE that K-Mart is not stocking Blu-Ray. They are, in fact, selling both formats through the holiday season.

"There have been numerous statements in the media today, attributed to Toshiba, indicating exclusive support for the HD DVD format in Kmart stores. These statements are false. Kmart intends to support both the HD DVD and Blu-ray platforms, and has no plans to support either platform exclusively."

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Kmart/Kmart:_Were_Purple/1137




Also, Sony has shifted their marketing campaign to show the PS3 as a Blu-Ray player AND a game console. As you suggested, I too think this is the right move.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/High-Def_Disc_Marketing/Sony/PlayStation_3/Blu-ray_to_Figure_Prominently_in_Largest-Ever_PS3_Marketing_Campaign/1133

[llama64]

So you would rather support Microsoft and their involvement with HD DVD? :blink:

Yes.

Sony installs root kits on my computer without either gaining my permission or even notifying me. Microsoft tries to patch insecurities on my computer. While MS might be a fairly shady business in the way it licenses Windows, to the average customer they are fairly positive. Sony seems to treat me like a jerk.

Sony is also a content producer and distributer. It bothers me that other studios would have to be paying royalties to their competitors to distribute their content on the Blue-Ray standard.

Personally, I think these things should be governed by an independent body so that the lame "format wars" go away.

Still, as has been pointed out, DVD isn't going way any time soon. I'm forecasting that HD-DVD will edge out due to adoption as a data archival format, but in terms of movies both will suffer a similar fate to the Laser Disc.

[Dr. Evil]

No, but when a major retailer does something like this because they feel blu-ray is too expensive then it can't be a good thing for blu-ray.

This thread was started with the announcement that Blockbuster wasn't going to carry HD-DVD movies. That turned out not to be true.

And Walmart is selling some HD-DVD players for less than $100. There has been a lot of press about HD-DVD lately, what with Paramount and Dreamworks going HD-DVD exclusive, sub $100 HD-DVD deals, K-mart not stocking Blu-ray. There hasn't been much positive Blu-ray news lately. I while people buying a PS3 are definitely using them as blu-ray players, I'm not sure how many people going out and looking for a high-def player are considering a PS3. That's something Sony should leverage more in their advertising.

I don't own either format (yet). I'm just watching what is going on.

Paramount was given $150 million to drop BR-D. "That makes sense that your format is being outsold by the competition so you fork out a huge sum of money to try and counted some of those sales. How are you running a viable business in doing so?

K-Mart is not dropping BR-D at all. BluRay will be making an advertising push (considering the number of movies coming only to BR-D recently and soon) and will get stronger into the 4th quarter. HD-DVD has had to drop their pants just to try and get a head start, but without the huge titles (Shrek aside) and when all the HD-A2's are gone where will HD-DVD be? $300 machines that don't play a third of the movies out there. Infact HD-DVD has been doing themselves a number of disfavours in anouncing exclusive titles which are not actualy coming, namely Speilberg films. Funny that the first and only Speilberg film coming out before x-mas is exclusive to BluRay, coming from Sony. The fact that there is not a single other of his films coming out shows this as a test in the waters of BluRay and the lack of anything on HD-DVD doesn't show any confidence in that format.

Of course right now the majority of BR-D players out there are PS3's. Trying to use that argument is rediculous as well because Microsoft would be touting how many HD-DVD players are out if they actualy built them into every Xbox360. Instead you have to pay more to get HD and then it's not as good as the PS3's BR-D player in comparrison to a stand-alone unit. The HD-A2 firesale is a move to further boost the stand-alone HD player numbers which to Toshiba is good in the eyes of retailers. Sony will counter with their own deal soon enough.

Also, trying to put down BR-D because it's Sony is as stupid as supporting HD-DVD because it's not. You are supporting Microsoft over Sony, which makes either argument mute.

[Canada 02]

Spider-Man 3 sets record for Sony Blu-ray

http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/34764/118/

[ernie]

Spider-Man 3 sets record for Sony Blu-ray

http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/34764/118/

The Transformers HD-DVD sold 190k it's first week.

But the real number is how many millions did Spiderman 3 sell on regular old DVD.

For comparison the Transformers DVD sold 8.3 mil that first week. That's 97.7% of the market and I'm guessing that the market share for regular old DVD increases as time goes on (High def videophiles buy week of).

As I said, very few people care about either format at this time.

[Bertuzzied]

The Transformers HD-DVD sold 190k it's first week.



Didn't paramount overstat their numbers for the Transformers hd?

Hmmm imagine if Spiderman 3 was actually a good movie... hehe

Watched Rataouille on blu ray last nite. Pixar movies convert over really good. Best picture i have ever seen. A lot better then Bell or Shaw HD.

[czure32]

one thing that is being missed with the whole "$99" HD-DVD player though is that both the HD-A2 and HD-A3 can "only" display up to 1080I
now while im no videophile and couldnt choose a 1080p from a 1080i signal in a side to side comparision it is somethign that may be important enough to some


personally Im happy with my PS3

[ernie]

Didn't paramount overstat their numbers for the Transformers hd?

Hmmm imagine if Spiderman 3 was actually a good movie... hehe

Watched Rataouille on blu ray last nite. Pixar movies convert over really good. Best picture i have ever seen. A lot better then Bell or Shaw HD.

Not sure it was overstated or not. It was what the manufacturer shipped I think so to them it is sold. Same number Blu-ray will report. Either way the main point to the post was the 8.3 mil regular DVD sold in comparison.

[SarichFan]

I have both formats and Think Blu-Ray will win based on library and Visual quality. Transformers HD-DVD is really nice but Spiderman 3 blows it away visually.

Ratetouille.. don't even get my started.. my god it looks amazing. You're pretty much getting the pure source almost on a single layer 50gb Blu-Ray disc.

I hope both formats stay alive because I have both players. PS3 and 360 HD DVD.

I think Ratatouille will sell in the millions on Blu-Ray

[ernie]

I have both formats and Think Blu-Ray will win based on library and Visual quality. Transformers HD-DVD is really nice but Spiderman 3 blows it away visually.

Ratetouille.. don't even get my started.. my god it looks amazing. You're pretty much getting the pure source almost on a single layer 50gb Blu-Ray disc.

I hope both formats stay alive because I have both players. PS3 and 360 HD DVD.

I think Ratatouille will sell in the millions on Blu-Ray

Ratatouille will not sell millions on Blu_ray. There are barely millions of Blu-Ray players and most of them are not used for movie viewing.

On visual quality...has nothing to do with the format. Only production.

[Bertuzzied]

Ratatouille will not sell millions on Blu_ray. There are barely millions of Blu-Ray players and most of them are not used for movie viewing.

On visual quality...has nothing to do with the format. Only production.

yeah i have to agree with the rattooie sales. For such an awesome movie it sure did crappy at the box office.

I don't know why people are jumping all over high def dvds? The quality in incomparable to regular dvds. But then again i bought my 1st dvd player for $800 and movies back then were $25-$25.

I bought like 10 blu ray movies from amazon.com a couple of weeks back for $12us each.

Hitachi just released a 100 gig blu ray disc and said that they can go as high as 200 gigs and 8 layers on 1 disc.

[Draug]

Just an update with recent sales numbers... All sales numbers seem to favor Blu-ray at this point. I thought that Paramount going exclusively HDDVD would have evened out the disc sales numbers, but it seems to have had very little effect.

"Counting standalone players and the PS3, a total of 2.7 million Blu-ray players have now been sold through to consumers.

That's the word from the Blu-ray Disc Association, in what seems to be a clear response to the HD DVD camp's recent announcement that it had sold over 750,000 "dedicated" players (including standalones and the Xbox 360 HD DVD add-on).

The BDA went on to tout recently-releases Nielsen VideoScan numbers, which gave Blu-ray a resounding lead in software sales Thanksgiving week, boasting 72.6% of all discs sold (compared to 27.4% for HD DVD)."

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Industry_Trends/BDA:_2.7_million_Blu-ray_Players_Sold/1228

[corporatejay]

I think the most telling number here is that 98% of the market is still on regular old DVD. The truth is even the "above average" person isn't going to fork out loads of cash for better picture quality. The main reason I switched to DVD (as did my parents) was because of functionality. It was easier to use, no more rewinding fast forwarding, degradation of the tape, added bonus features, the availability of tv shows etc...

The problem is that HDDVD and Blu-ray only offer one upgrade and it's from "pretty good quality" to "amazing quality". I just don't see it happening any time soon.

[Hack&Lube]

I think the most telling number here is that 98% of the market is still on regular old DVD. The truth is even the "above average" person isn't going to fork out loads of cash for better picture quality.


And that's the bottom line. $ as usual. Regular DVD is cheapest. HD DVD can win if they continue to pump out the cheapest players.

[ernie]

I've mentioned it before but do not underestimate the power the fabs have in this. They do not want to change technologies but if they do they much prefer HD-DVD becuase it can be retrofit into the current DVD technology which is far cheaper. For Blu-Ray they have to replace entire production trains and not only that they have to replace the productions trains with one that has a larger footprint. It is something that may come to the forefront if the formats start to gain any sort of acceptance, which they haven't yet.

The attach rate for HD-DVD is still higher at this point. Blu-ray may be winnning a battle here or there but the war isn't won....if it can even be called a war at this point. Well I suppose it is but it isn't really a war that matters right now.

[Regorium]

I've mentioned it before but do not underestimate the power the fabs have in this. They do not want to change technologies but if they do they much prefer HD-DVD becuase it can be retrofit into the current DVD technology which is far cheaper. For Blu-Ray they have to replace entire production trains and not only that they have to replace the productions trains with one that has a larger footprint. It is something that may come to the forefront if the formats start to gain any sort of acceptance, which they haven't yet.

The attach rate for HD-DVD is still higher at this point. Blu-ray may be winnning a battle here or there but the war isn't won....if it can even be called a war at this point. Well I suppose it is but it isn't really a war that matters right now.

If we as consumers are not seeing the benefits of the reduced cost to the fabs in disc savings, then it will do nothing for attach rate. If retro-fitting old equipment does save them money as you claim, HD-DVD's should be selling at a $25 or $30 price point, instead of being equivalent to the blu-ray at $35.

In my opinion, the side that can get their discs down to $25 a movie like DVD's will come out ahead.

[Bertuzzied]

If we as consumers are not seeing the benefits of the reduced cost to the fabs in disc savings, then it will do nothing for attach rate. If retro-fitting old equipment does save them money as you claim, HD-DVD's should be selling at a $25 or $30 price point, instead of being equivalent to the blu-ray at $35.

In my opinion, the side that can get their discs down to $25 a movie like DVD's will come out ahead.

I have about 25 blu ray discs and my average cost for them have been around $13.

And i think going from 480 lines of resolution to 1080 lines is pretty significant. Like going from 240 lines for a VHS tape to 480 lines for a regular dvd. People who can't notice the difference do not have the right equipment, or did not set it up properly.

[Table 5]

I have both formats and Think Blu-Ray will win based on library and Visual quality. Transformers HD-DVD is really nice but Spiderman 3 blows it away visually.

I think some of the picture quality difference is because the XBox 360 HD-DVD attachment doesnt go up to 1080p, while the PS3 does.

The one thing I find a little weird about HD-DVD is that not all of them go up to true HD quality...a lot of the cheaper models that people are buying don't support 1080p...which is sort of the whole point of the upgrade imo.

[Bill Bumface]

I think some of the picture quality difference is because the XBox 360 HD-DVD attachment doesnt go up to 1080p, while the PS3 does.

Is that a player limitation? New Xboxes have HDMI, and a while ago Microsoft issued a software update to enable 1080p on the 360.

[ernie]

If we as consumers are not seeing the benefits of the reduced cost to the fabs in disc savings, then it will do nothing for attach rate. If retro-fitting old equipment does save them money as you claim, HD-DVD's should be selling at a $25 or $30 price point, instead of being equivalent to the blu-ray at $35.

In my opinion, the side that can get their discs down to $25 a movie like DVD's will come out ahead.

Ignoring capital expenditures, the per disc cost for either format is as low as regular DVD from what I've read. There is a big difference in capital expenditures between the two technologies. Ultimately that may not matter if Blu-ray grabs a hold of the market. That is the entire movie buying market not just the high def market as maunfacturers will put out the expense of changing over the fabs. But if it continues to essentially stall versus normal DVD they will be loathe to lose regular DVD production trains creating a potential bottleneck which can kill a technology. On the other hand, from what I've read HD-DVD and normal DVD can be manufactured on the same production train so a fab would ultimately not lose any DVD output capacity if high def never takes off.

So many permutations and combinations on what can happen at this stage. Certainly a 2:1 edge in movie sales is promising for Blu-ray, but HD-DVD can argue attachment rate data and other things.

It comes down to what it always will come down...when will the public care enough to decide this supposed war? Will they ever care enough? And when they do care enough is the easiest solution simply to have both formats?

[Josh]

In a biased way, I want Blu-ray to win, just because I'll be buying PS3 regardless of which one wins. But in the end, it won't really matter that much to me, as worst case scenario, I'll buy an HD DVD player to along with my PS3. No biggie.

This is exactly what I've done. I'm very happy with my PS3/HD-A3 combo.

[TurnedTheCorner]

People who can't notice the difference do not have the right equipment, or did not set it up properly.
It's not so much noticing the difference, it's noticing that it's not much of a difference.

[Bertuzzied]

It's not so much noticing the difference, it's noticing that it's not much of a difference.
really? i find that hard to believe. are you sure you haven't seen it on 720p?

Can you notice the difference on TSN HD and regular TSN?

[Table 5]

Is that a player limitation? New Xboxes have HDMI, and a while ago Microsoft issued a software update to enable 1080p on the 360.

ah, i didnt know those were out now! good to hear.

[automaton 3]

^^^ I was over at a buddy's place last weekend who just bought a 1080 plasma tv and an HD-DVD player. He rented a movie (can't remember which one) in both SD and HD formats just to compare.

The HD-DVD certainly looked better, but surprisingly not by much. Pretty disappointing really compared to what we were expecting. The up-convert feature on his HD-DVD really does work pretty well.

[Bertuzzied]

^^^ I was over at a buddy's place last weekend who just bought a 1080 plasma tv and an HD-DVD player. He rented a movie (can't remember which one) in both SD and HD formats just to compare.

The HD-DVD certainly looked better, but surprisingly not by much. Pretty disappointing really compared to what we were expecting. The up-convert feature on his HD-DVD really does work pretty well.

You can't remember which movie? but you watched it twice. haha.

Unless he spent more then $400 on his hd dvd player you were prob watching it on 1080i and not 1080p.

[SeeGeeWhy]

I had to do a paper on this "battle" for a strategic management class this semester.

Blu Ray and HD-DVD are very close in all aspects except for cost to the consumer - HD DVD still has an advantage there - and production line costs - HD DVD is a bit cheaper than Blu Ray for now.

As for performance between HD-DVD and Blu Ray, all of the discs are recorded in native 1080p density, but not all of the players are capable of outputting at true 1080p resolution right now. Even some of the early blu ray players used a second processing chip to upgrade the signal that was coming from the main chip.

A good link to read up on the differences is found here: http://www.digital-digest.com/highdefdvd/faq.html#faq601 (http://www.digital-digest.com/highdefdvd/faq.html#faq601)

The big problem that we discovered is that both Toshiba and Sony are missing out on making HD DVD profitable as a technology by fighting so hard to establish their own format over the other. They are getting greedy over production royalties and it is hurting the chances of making HD DVD viable project all together.

The incumbent (standard def DVD) is a VERY good technology that most people are satisfied with. As such the majority of people are not rushing out to go buy an HD player, even if they have an HDTV, because they want to see who is going to win the format war before they make a choice.

Basically, this "war" is extending the life of SD DVD, and accelerating the maturation of a replacement technology - HD programming and movies over IP.

By the time they sort this out, your HD DVD player will be a secondary component to your High bandwidth PVR that can store hours of movies, and will likely be able to accept movies from removable flash disks.

[photon]

You can't remember which movie? but you watched it twice. haha.

Unless he spent more then $400 on his hd dvd player you were prob watching it on 1080i and not 1080p.

There's no difference between 1080i and 1080p unless the TV doesn't deinterlace properly (which not all do).

http://blog.hometheatermag.com/geoffreymorrison/0807061080iv1080p/

[TurnedTheCorner]

really? i find that hard to believe. are you sure you haven't seen it on 720p?

Can you notice the difference on TSN HD and regular TSN?
Admittedly, my TV is a native 720p DLP. And my HD-DVD player upconverts the DVDs. When I compared my copy of the Matrix from the ultimate DVD collection to the HD-DVD copy, there was a slight difference in that more fine detail was visible on the HD-DVD version. Again, not a very big difference. I would expect to notice more of a difference on a suitably sized native 1080p set since my HD-DVD player does handle 1080p.

The difference is much, much more noticeable on broadcasts of course. 720p TSN HD looks tons better than stretched 480i TSN largely due to the aspect ratio. Even comparing proper 4:3 SD TSn to HD TSN shows a very noticeable difference.

But I don't think likening SD broadcasts to HD broadcasts as a comparison for comparing DVD to HD-DVD/Bluray is valid. Seems like comparing apples and oranges to me, personally.

[Bertuzzied]

Admittedly, my TV is a native 720p DLP. And my HD-DVD player upconverts the DVDs. When I compared my copy of the Matrix from the ultimate DVD collection to the HD-DVD copy, there was a slight difference in that more fine detail was visible on the HD-DVD version. Again, not a very big difference. I would expect to notice more of a difference on a suitably sized native 1080p set since my HD-DVD player does handle 1080p.

The difference is much, much more noticeable on broadcasts of course. 720p TSN HD looks tons better than stretched 480i TSN.

But I don't likening SD broadcasts to HD broadcasts as a comparison for comparing DVD to HD-DVD/Bluray is valid. Seems like comparing apples and ornages to me, personally.
Well you can't really make a true comparison when you are comparing regular dvds upconverted to 720, to blu ray or hd dvds running at 720 and not 1080?

Plus DLPs is kinda dated now compared to the new lcds out there.

[photon]

On my 720p projector the difference between upconverted DVDs and HD movies is still night and day in my eyes.

[TurnedTheCorner]

Well you can't really make a true comparison when you are comparing regular dvds upconverted to 720, to blu ray or hd dvds running at 720 and not 1080?

Plus DLPs is kinda dated now compared to the new lcds out there.
But I truly compared them! ;) Yeah, I know it's not an ideal experience, but it's the best I can do with my personal set-up. For that matter, the Matrix DVD has a great transfer to boot. I imagine comparing a "lesser" DVD to it's HD counterpart in either format would make a difference too.

And don't make me sad about DLP, you bad man you. :(

[Bertuzzied]

But I truly compared them! ;) Yeah, I know it's not an ideal experience, but it's the best I can do with my personal set-up.

And don't make me sad about DLP. :(
Thats ok. i have the worlds oldest hd ready tv in the world. My sony 4X3 53inch crt projection which was like $5000 new. hehe. It's great for video games though.

But seriously go check out a blu ray on the new Sony bravia at the sony store. You'd be impressed.

[ernie]

Thats ok. i have the worlds oldest hd ready tv in the world. My sony 4X3 53inch crt projection which was like $5000 new. hehe. It's great for video games though.

But seriously go check out a blu ray on the new Sony bravia at the sony store. You'd be impressed.

No more impressed than an HD-DVD running through a Bravia.....

[SarichFan]

No more impressed than an HD-DVD running through a Bravia.....

This is true.. Although there's just so much more content on Blu-Ray that it's insane. I got a PS3 recently, and am loving how many more movies there are than when I was just an HD-DVD owner.

Anyway, I just got the Blu-Ray of the BBC Documentary Planet Earth and it's absolutely mindblowing, it's out on both formats. So if you're into Nature Doc's that are extremely well done, you should pick it up!

[Bertuzzied]

No more impressed than an HD-DVD running through a Bravia.....

Ok. tell me how that hd dvd looks at the Sony store?

But yes if you goto someone's house with a Sony Bravia and Toshiba A5 I'm sure it would be impressive too.

[Bertuzzied]

Looks like the end of the war is near, by January at the CES.Warner might be going Blu Ray exclusive.


http://www.tvpredictions.com/business120707.htm

According to Michael Burns, vice chairman of Lionsgate Studios, "The rumor is that Warner is coming aboard soon. That will make it awfully tough for HD-DVD to stay in this game."

[Calgaree]

HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray

whoever wins. we all lose in the end.
Bring on HD DLC :)

[Bobblehead]

There won't be a difference between the visual quality of HD-DVD vs Blu-ray - the both use the same codecs (H.264, MPEG4 AVC, MPEG2, VC-1). There can be some differences in audio (HD-DVD spec has required some additional HD codec support), but if you are noticing a difference between HD-DVD and Blu ray then you are noticing differences in either the source material or in the quality of the post-processing circuitry in the player.

[Table 5]

Warner goes Blu-Ray exclusive starting in May 2008. Is this the end of HD-DVD? Or will it matter since by the time it dies out, we will all be downloading movies....

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/04/warner-goes-blu-ray-exclusive/

[Bobblehead]

I just have a strong distaste for Sony backed formats.

I don't have either format yet, I think this may drag on long enough that something else may supplant them. Perhaps downloads, but that is an awful lot of bandwidth. Neither has really put a dent in regular DVDs yet. Until that happens I don't think a winner can be declared.

I wish I knew more about the compression algorithms used. If a new compression method came along then perhaps downloading would be possible, or movies could be on smaller disks (or other formats - cartridges, SD cards, thumb drives, some sort of a bluetooth container you sit on the TV and it transfers). Tech is changing faster than ever - a war that drags on may well find a winner that has already been passed by.

[JayP]

Neither has really put a dent in regular DVDs yet. Until that happens I don't think a winner can be declared.

I would say that neither will put a dent into DVDs until a winner a declared.

Blu-ray and HD-DVD players are simply too expensive at this point to warrant the purchase of a format could be dead very, very soon. As soon as the winner emerges then sales will start to rise quickly.

[Russic]

as a ps3 owner this news makes me happy. My bluray collection is slowly growing and I really don't want to have to buy a whole new player in a couple years.

[The Yen Man]

I would say that neither will put a dent into DVDs until a winner a declared.

Blu-ray and HD-DVD players are simply too expensive at this point to warrant the purchase of a format could be dead very, very soon. As soon as the winner emerges then sales will start to rise quickly.

Are Blu-ray and HD-DVD players really that expensive? From what I can see, it seems decently priced right now at around 500. I remember paying almost 1,000 for my first DVD player when it came out.

[Bobblehead]

Are Blu-ray and HD-DVD players really that expensive? From what I can see, it seems decently priced right now at around 500. I remember paying almost 1,000 for my first DVD player when it came out.

Early adopters will pay, but Bob and Betty Suburbs will need a much better price point, especially when their $50 DVD player still looks really good.

The difference between a VCR and a DVD was huge. It was obvious about the difference, and how easy it was to use (just like their CD players!). But for the average person still using their regular CRT TV, the benefit of the HD source just isn't as apparent as the previous tech jump was.

Perhaps once the US drops analog signals and everyone needs set top boxes to make their older TVs work, that will convince more to upgrade to a tv set where they will realize the difference.

[automaton 3]

Was just at Blockbuster and just out of curiosity had a look at the Blu-ray/ HD-DVD section - only 38 titles in stock total for Blu-ray, 26 for HD-DVD.

Until those numbers come up significantly I just don't see myself buying one.

[photon]

I would say that neither will put a dent into DVDs until a winner a declared.

Actually seems it was the other way around, DVD sales were really starting to be hurt because of the war:

http://gizmodo.com/340956/interview-why-warner-went-full-throttle-with-blu+ray

With this I think you'll see an all out bloodbath in terms of price, HD-DVD players for under $100 maybe. That's probably the only way HD-DVD can drag this out is to make their price so compelling and get so many units out there that they beat BD that way.

[SarichFan]

Old?
http://dvd.ign.com/articles/843/843627p1.html

Warner chooses Blu

[Bertuzzied]

Whoops didn't know there was a sub form. hehe.

I wonder if Paramount/Universal since they got paid 150 million to go hd dvd exclusive would lose more then $150million in profits? It is suppose to go until the end of 2008.

[Bertuzzied]

Actually seems it was the other way around, DVD sales were really starting to be hurt because of the war:

http://gizmodo.com/340956/interview-why-warner-went-full-throttle-with-blu+ray

With this I think you'll see an all out bloodbath in terms of price, HD-DVD players for under $100 maybe. That's probably the only way HD-DVD can drag this out is to make their price so compelling and get so many units out there that they beat BD that way.

I guess the $100 HD dvd players didn't even help during Christmas.
"One of the things you see in the NPD data for this fourth quarter was that even with a $100 [price] premium, Blu-ray set tops outsold HD set tops in December. Even with Toshiba having the lowest-cost player in the market, software sales remained 2 to 1 in favor of Blu-ray."

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents

[corporatejay]

I guess the $100 HD dvd players didn't even help during Christmas.
"One of the things you see in the NPD data for this fourth quarter was that even with a $100 [price] premium, Blu-ray set tops outsold HD set tops in December. Even with Toshiba having the lowest-cost player in the market, software sales remained 2 to 1 in favor of Blu-ray."
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents


Well Blu-ray dropped their prices big time.

There were samsung blu-ray players at Futureshop for 229 around boxing day. That is a pretty reasonable price considering lame-ass upconverting DVD players are retailing at 129.


also, i have a very very strong feeling next year's electronic "it" gift will be blu-ray/hddvd players and movies. You know how every year something seems to drop big time and all the electronic stores push it (last year it was satellite radio, this year it was GPS). This is when i plan on picking one up.

[SarichFan]

I'm dual format, but give me my Matrix Trilogy in Blu-Ray now! I've been waiting for this announcement.

The only reason I still have my 360 HD-DVD addon right now is for Transformers.. The rest I plan on selling.

[Hack&Lube]

That's the problem with pricing lower to attract early adopters...lower pricing psychologically in the consumer's eye means inferior product.

[nfotiu]

It was all about backroom deals and had nothing to do with which was selling better. It is coming out that both Fox and Warner were very close to going HD DVD exclusively as recently as a few days ago. Then the Blu-ray group offered Fox money to stay, and Warner wouldn't go to HD-DVD without Fox. I guess this format war is over now.

[Table 5]

That's the problem with pricing lower to attract early adopters...lower pricing psychologically in the consumer's eye means inferior product.

While I think that might be true with the average consumer, I think most early adopters are more savy than that. Early adopters are so because they love their tech gear, and often do the research beforehand.

While I hate Sony, I did go Blu-Ray, mostly because the PS3 gave me a good excuse to finally get a video game system as well.

I actually hope HD-DVD stick around, that way they can keep hammering it out and giving us customers good deals.

[photon]

New Line announces Blu-ray only as well.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/05/new-line-confirms-itll-follow-in-warners-blu-footsteps/

[SarichFan]

New Line announces Blu-ray only as well.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/05/new-line-confirms-itll-follow-in-warners-blu-footsteps/


Wow, that's huge. Lord of the Rings comes to mind

[TurnedTheCorner]

I don't get why the New Line announcement is being treated as separate news - Warner owns New Line does it not?

I'll continue to by HD-DVDs if they're available, DVDs if they're not. I suppose if push comes to show I may buy a dual format player so that I can continue to enjoy HD movies without having to re-purchase any HD-DVDs in my collection.

[SarichFan]

Wait, so you're going to buy a dual format player? wouldn't it be cheaper to just buy a PS3 and re-buy the HD-DVD's you'll actually watch again in Blu-Ray? Obviously you'll have to wait for Movies like Transformers, or shows like Heroes to go Blu.

Dual format players are going to be pricey no?

I've personally picked up a couple Blu-Ray's I had on HD-DVD because I plan to sell what HD-DVD's I have on ebay.

I actually was a HD-DVD supporter from when the 360 add on was released but the writing was on the wall a long time ago to me, and I haven't looked back since.

[TurnedTheCorner]

The newest Samsung dual format player (http://tinyurl.com/3xa4lt) was announced at CES with an MSRP of $599 USD. Not much more than a PS3, and it can play both formats. I'd rather pay a little extra for that than to re-buy my 20+ HD-DVDs. But to each their own. I think I'd prefer one unit in the home theater rather than two dedicated players, should I go that route.

[Russic]

The newest Samsung dual format player (http://tinyurl.com/3xa4lt) was announced at CES with an MSRP of $599 USD. Not much more than a PS3, and it can play both formats. I'd rather pay a little extra for that than to re-buy my 20+ HD-DVDs. But to each their own. I think I'd prefer one unit in the home theater rather than two dedicated players, should I go that route.

If you have 20+ hd movies than the dual format might be a good choice.

[You Need a Thneed]

Everyone knows this is going to end with all players becoming dual format. in a year or two, dual format players will be cheaper then any single player is now, and won't cost any more then a single format player (If they are even still available).

Then, of course, one the formats will win, because there's no point in creating two versions of a movie when all the players sold will play both. Whichever format is cheaper to produce at the time will become virtually the only format sold, but noone will care. Does anyone care about the difference between DVD-R and DVD+R?

[Engine09]

Some people are talking like their HD-DVDs will turn to dust if BluRay comes out on top. You have the hardware already, keep your HD-DVDs and watch them whenever you want. I've already been thinking about buying a PS3 just so I can rent the BluRays at Blockbuster, plus I'll be able to play whatever games are out for the PS3.

When I was a kid we had both Beta and VHS, because we wanted to watch whatever movies were available. It's not like you're buying a car or a house, hardly a huge investment that warrants "holding out" until there is a winner.

[Table 5]

Paramount looks like it might be trying to get out of it's HD DVD exclusive deal....while this might not be the end of HD DVD, there sure hasn't been much positive news coming out of that camp in a while now.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ea637496-bd8d-11dc-b7e6-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1

[JayP]

Some people are talking like their HD-DVDs will turn to dust if BluRay comes out on top. You have the hardware already, keep your HD-DVDs and watch them whenever you want. I've already been thinking about buying a PS3 just so I can rent the BluRays at Blockbuster, plus I'll be able to play whatever games are out for the PS3.

When I was a kid we had both Beta and VHS, because we wanted to watch whatever movies were available. It's not like you're buying a car or a house, hardly a huge investment that warrants "holding out" until there is a winner.

What's the point of owning a HD-DVD if no new movies will get released on it? I don't know much about the Beta/VHS war, but I'm guessing that 5/7 (and soon to be 6) major movie studios didn't exclusively release movies on only one format.

If Paramount jumps then there's simply no reason for HD-DVD to exist.

[Daradon]

At least this one was over relatively quickly. Unlike VHS vs Betamax which lasted several years.

Still wondering it Blu-Ray will end up like Laser Disc though... quickly eclipsed by something else.

[Hack&Lube]

Congratulations Sony on your first format war win in 4 decades.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

At least this one was over relatively quickly. Unlike VHS vs Betamax which lasted several years.

Still wondering it Blu-Ray will end up like Laser Disc though... quickly eclipsed by something else.


It may be sooner than you think. Next generation may indeed not be disc format at all.

[SarichFan]

It may be sooner than you think. Next generation may indeed not be disc format at all.

I don't buy this at all.. Digital distrubution will never take hold over physical media.

For rentals, maybe... but if people are paying $20+ for anything you bet your ass they'll want a physical product to put on their shelves.

[LockedOut]

It'll still take a long time if Blu-Ray becomes standard for BD to overtake DVD's. When DVD's became popular people did not have the collection of movies and TV shows on VHS like they do now on DVD. Thus there wasn't the major financial hassle of repurchasing the movies on DVD. I doubt today people are willing to repurchase alot of what they have on DVD. The DVD movies and players are so much cheaper than what VHS ever achieved in its time that people probably have one for each TV, possibly a portable DVD player, DVD player in each computer and a DVD player in their car. These are hurdles HD has to overcome to become mainstream not to mention getting more HDTV's into homes. Until then it's still a niche product.

Edit: BTW I own both a Toshiba HD-DVD($99 FS BD :)) player and a PS3. So I'm not some DVD fanboi.

[SarichFan]

Blu-Ray will never become standard but it'll be strong enough to sustain a studio's interest in producing HD movies for those who care and want to watch movies in HD over standard Def DVD's.

[Engine09]

What's the point of owning a HD-DVD if no new movies will get released on it?

You have the hardware already, keep your HD-DVDs and watch them whenever you want.

I plan to continue buying HD-DVDs, maybe I'll be able to get them for cheap if BluRay takes over quickly. HD is HD, no matter what color plastic the case is made of. And I am buying a PS3 very soon, I'll slowly start buying BluRays when most releases are exclusive.

[Bill Bumface]

I don't buy this at all.. Digital distrubution will never take hold over physical media.


Seems to be working alright for music...

[TheyCallMeBruce]

I don't buy this at all.. Digital distrubution will never take hold over physical media.

For rentals, maybe... but if people are paying $20+ for anything you bet your ass they'll want a physical product to put on their shelves.

You may not buy it, but that is the reality and the direction we are heading. It has been argued for years that the physical media needs to reinvent itself to stay alive.

And I doubt you'd be paying $20 if digital distribution comes into play. If given the choice, I would gladly spend $5 to get my movies, than $20 for some paper and plastic.

[Table 5]

It'll still take a long time if Blu-Ray becomes standard for BD to overtake DVD's. When DVD's became popular people did not have the collection of movies and TV shows on VHS like they do now on DVD. Thus there wasn't the major financial hassle of repurchasing the movies on DVD. I doubt today people are willing to repurchase alot of what they have on DVD. The DVD movies and players are so much cheaper than what VHS ever achieved in its time that people probably have one for each TV, possibly a portable DVD player, DVD player in each computer and a DVD player in their car. These are hurdles HD has to overcome to become mainstream not to mention getting more HDTV's into homes. Until then it's still a niche product.


Since HD player upscale your old DVD's pretty well, people don't have to replace their DVD's, they can just start buying HD's from now on. In a short while, these players will come down in price enough where buying a player will not be a hurdle for most people. You can already buy an HD DVD for under 200 bucks...Blu-Ray won't be far behind.

[JayP]

I plan to continue buying HD-DVDs, maybe I'll be able to get them for cheap if BluRay takes over quickly. HD is HD, no matter what color plastic the case is made of. And I am buying a PS3 very soon, I'll slowly start buying BluRays when most releases are exclusive.

I understand what you're saying, but it's not like there's a wide variety of HD-DVD titles out. I don't know the exact number, but it must be only around 150. That's not exactly going to make worth it for people to ever buy an HD-DVD player when the same titles will be available on blu-ray when Paramount and Universal jump over. It may be a little cheaper, but you didn't see the Dreamcast get any burst of sales after it was dirt cheap early in last-gen's gaming. I doubt the HD-DVD player would be any different.

[JayP]

Seems to be working alright for music...

I think the major hurdle for movies is download speed and size.

The average download speed for the average North American home is ridiculously slow. It would take days to download a 700 MB movie at the average speed. Even my very fast connection takes at least an hour to download a demo on my PS3.

Until download speeds increase immensely there's no way digital distribution for video is viable in the near future.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

I think the major hurdle for movies is download speed and size.

The average download speed for the average North American home is ridiculously slow. It would take days to download a 700 MB movie at the average speed. Even my very fast connection takes at least an hour to download a demo on my PS3.

Until download speeds increase immensely there's no way digital distribution for video is viable in the near future.

Unless you're talking about streaming downloads, which are highly possible for HD quality movies.

[Barnes]

Paramount looks like it might be trying to get out of it's HD DVD exclusive deal....while this might not be the end of HD DVD, there sure hasn't been much positive news coming out of that camp in a while now.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ea637496-bd8d-11dc-b7e6-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1


Here's a better article:

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/01/08/deathblow_paramount_to_abandon_hd_dvd_in_return_to _blu_ray.html

Paramount is denying the FT article.

[Draug]

Unless you're talking about streaming downloads, which are highly possible for HD quality movies.

Where?

I have Shaw Extreme, and any streaming video I have come across is nowhere near the quality of my Blu-ray discs.

I have downloaded a ton of ripped HD TV and a 42 minute episode has an mpeg4 file size of 1.2GB. It takes about 15 minutes to download, at an average speed of 9.15 Mbps. The same episode from HD-DVD or Blu-Ray rips takes about 20 minutes to download and is about 1.5GB in size. Niether option provides the same quality as my Blu-rays or Hd-dvds. A good HD rip is very marginally better than DVD and a good HDTV rip is about the same as DVD. Both my computer and my DVD players are all hooked up to the same TV, so the comparison is fairly valid.

My download speed is better than the average. Just yesterday, I helped a person that only has dialup internet access! It took him about 5 minutes to download 1.5 MB's - it literally just blinked across my screen when I downloaded it.

Until everyone can download and stream at 100 Mbps, physical media wont be obsolete.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Where?

I have Shaw Extreme, and any streaming video I have come across is nowhere near the quality of my Blu-ray discs.

I have downloaded a ton of ripped HD TV and a 42 minute episode has an mpeg4 file size of 1.2GB. It takes about 15 minutes to download, at an average speed of 9.15 Mbps. The same episode from HD-DVD or Blu-Ray rips takes about 20 minutes to download and is about 1.5GB in size. Niether option provides the same quality as my Blu-rays or Hd-dvds. A good HD rip is very marginally better than DVD and a good HDTV rip is about the same as DVD. Both my computer and my DVD players are all hooked up to the same TV, so the comparison is fairly valid.

My download speed is better than the average. Just yesterday, I helped a person that only has dialup internet access! It took him about 5 minutes to download 1.5 MB's - it literally just blinked across my screen when I downloaded it.

Until everyone can download and stream at 100 Mbps, physical media wont be obsolete.

I'm not saying this is happening now. I'm saying this will happen eventually. How soon? Who knows. It could happen in 5 years, maybe sooner.

Here's an example...

HSDPA phones were a pipe dream 5 years ago. Hell, even a couple of years ago we weren't even remotely thinking of such technology, but it is here.

I'm just trying to point out that physical media may not have as long as a shelf life as we think.

[SarichFan]

Seems to be working alright for music...

That's an entirely different medium though... Many, Many people are afficionado's of collecting films. People who have certain favorites will double, or even triple dip into their collection when a new release is out. A huge part of buying movies to people is to add to their collections.

It's working alright for music, yes but you don't see HMV closing up shop. People still prefer a hard copy, but the ability to download from say, iTunes is for mereconvenience. If a die hard fan of a band were to choose to download or go buy an album at the store, I'd venture to guess 9/10 would rather own the CD.

You may not buy it, but that is the reality and the direction we are heading. It has been argued for years that the physical media needs to reinvent itself to stay alive.

And I doubt you'd be paying $20 if digital distribution comes into play. If given the choice, I would gladly spend $5 to get my movies, than $20 for some paper and plastic.

Well XBox Live has already started doing this, $7 ish I think for a HD Rental Download that lasts 24 hours.. now to me this is a huge Rip off. I'd rather scour eBay for a Blu-Ray version of 300 for $20 shipped and be able to own it forever and at a higher quality for just $13 more.

The Digital Download era of Home video has already begun and I don't see it growing any more then where it's at right now. If Blu-Ray is a niche market, Digital Downloads for movies is Uber Niche and it will stay there ONLY as a pure rental market.

[JayP]

Unless you're talking about streaming downloads, which are highly possible for HD quality movies.

And then you're talking about something completely different, aren't you?

You don't own anything if you're just streaming it. It might be a possibility for rentals.

[TurnedTheCorner]

I understand what you're saying, but it's not like there's a wide variety of HD-DVD titles out. I don't know the exact number, but it must be only around 150. That's not exactly going to make worth it for people to ever buy an HD-DVD player when the same titles will be available on blu-ray when Paramount and Universal jump over.
Just offering up a number - Toshiba's CES booth made mention of the fact that there are over 1000 HD-DVD titles available worldwide.

[photon]

And then you're talking about something completely different, aren't you?

You don't own anything if you're just streaming it. It might be a possibility for rentals.

Semantics really, you can still own something and stream it, you might own the right to stream it whenever you want/need it.

When high bandwidth becomes pervasive enough this makes the most sense as then you don't have to worry about storage and stuff.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/08/xstreamhd-details-continue-to-emerge/

Stuff like that can go in between now and uber-bandwidth era, streaming but not live streaming.

[Table 5]

Paramount is denying the FT article.

Warner was denying it's rumored departure till pretty much the day of their anouncement, so I'm not sure that really matters.

[SarichFan]

Warner was denying it's rumored departure till pretty much the day of their anouncement, so I'm not sure that really matters.

Not only that, but The Financial Times is a highly reputable source for this kind of stuff.

It makes sense for Paramount to deny at this point as they're likely going through the legal process.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

sarichfan, we will have to agree to disagree. I am only basing this on what my company, a multimedia content provider, has done or is doing. The way we see it, the future IS digital content. And as a company, we have taken into account the trends and lifestyle choices of our demographic. What we see is that everything is pointing toward digital content distribution. I would be more than happy to share with you the details if you really want to know. So take that for what it is worth.

[Bertuzzied]

sarichfan, we will have to agree to disagree. I am only basing this on what my company, a multimedia content provider, has done or is doing. The way we see it, the future IS digital content. And as a company, we have taken into account the trends and lifestyle choices of our demographic. What we see is that everything is pointing toward digital content distribution. I would be more than happy to share with you the details if you really want to know. So take that for what it is worth.

As long as blu ray has a burner under $200 and media under $2-3/disc it will go away later rather then sooner. I'm sure they will have that within the next 2-3 years, and i don't see any drastic changes with streaming and shaw within that time period.

I still remember my first pioneer dvd burner for my comp. It was $700 for the burner and the DVD-R's were $8 a disc. I did a little dance everytime i made a coaster. hahahahah hehe

[Table 5]

The faltering of companies like Blockbuster should be good indication that digital content is the way of the future. Companies like Netflix are already drawing customers from traditional means, as well as offering streaming media. While not 100% there yet, I think many people are showing that they would much rather make these type of viewing decisions in front of a computer in the comfort of their home.

This doesnt mean that physical media will go away, it will just find it's own place in society. Magazines and books were supposed to die too after all.

[The Yen Man]

sarichfan, we will have to agree to disagree. I am only basing this on what my company, a multimedia content provider, has done or is doing. The way we see it, the future IS digital content. And as a company, we have taken into account the trends and lifestyle choices of our demographic. What we see is that everything is pointing toward digital content distribution. I would be more than happy to share with you the details if you really want to know. So take that for what it is worth.

I'm not sure about other people, but for me personally, if I were shelling out the same amount, I would rather own a physical copy of a movie than own a right to stream it. Streaming to me is the same as PPV, or renting at Blockbuster. I like collecting movies, including having the physical disc and all the bonus stuff that may come with it (box art, postcards, etc.)

[Table 5]

who say's we can't have both?

[TheyCallMeBruce]

I'm not sure about other people, but for me personally, if I were shelling out the same amount, I would rather own a physical copy of a movie than own a right to stream it. Streaming to me is the same as PPV, or renting at Blockbuster. I like collecting movies, including having the physical disc and all the bonus stuff that may come with it (box art, postcards, etc.)

Like Table5 said, I don't think physical media will go extinct. Like print media, they will have their place, just not front and center like they are now. And I highly doubt you'll be paying the same price. Digital content is usually cheaper (or should be).

[Barnes]

Warner was denying it's rumored departure till pretty much the day of their anouncement, so I'm not sure that really matters.

Not only that, but The Financial Times is a highly reputable source for this kind of stuff.

It makes sense for Paramount to deny at this point as they're likely going through the legal process.

Hey, I don't make the news, I just report it! :D

I thought maybe Apple would add blu ray burners to the next Mac Pro at Macworld but they updated them today without.

Dual-quad core Hapertowns at 3.2ghz. My birthday's on the 22nd people.:D

[Table 5]

Barnes, Im holding out for the Macbook Pro...hopefully it will be a significant upgrade, I'm tired of holding out.

[redforever]

Another small victory for Blu-ray

http://technology.sympatico.msn.cbc.ca/Netflix+digs+HD+DVD+grave+deeper/NewsandOpinions/ContentPosting.aspx?isfa=1&newsitemid=tech-netflix&feedname=CBC-TECH-SCIENCE&show=False&number=0&showbyline=True&subtitle=&detect=&abc=abc&date=False

[Burninator]

I've noticed that Futureshop and Bestbuy haven't been advertising HD DVD players in the last couple weeks of flyers.

[HotHotHeat]

It's clear bluray has won. The HDDVD camp is more less liquidating the products they've already made. They owe it to their investors to put up a fight until the bitter end, but they 're not ######ed.

Interesting to see the OP call this one way back when.

[Bobblehead]

It's clear bluray has won. The HDDVD camp is more less liquidating the products they've already made. They owe it to their investors to put up a fight until the bitter end, but they 're not ######ed.

Interesting to see the OP call this one way back when.

I'm not sure if I misjudged:
a) how much money Sony was willing to spend to get studio support
or
b) how much the studios were going to want the additional digital rights management at the cost of higher creation/disc production costs (even though the DRM will be hacked within days of any update)

[worth]

Toshiba HD-A3 players are going for $150 at futureshop. Unreal. When the HD-A1 came out it was going for like $800. And that was pretty much only a year ago.

[Russic]

I realize this sob story has probably been written throughout this thread, but I know a guy who spent 800$ on his hd-dvd player and a further 300$ on movies. I can think of few things that would burn more then that. I suppose maybe if he did that and lived in Edmonton it would be the ultimate slap in the face.

[HotHotHeat]

Toshiba expected to abandon HD DVD format in the coming weeks, and Walmart goes BD exclusive in June.

The Toshiba announcement will be the final nail in the coffin, it would include the TV players as well as the Satellite Laptops currently being made with HD DVD drives.

http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9873029-7.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-5

[photon]

Yup, this one's pretty much over I think.

Too late to sell my HD-DVD's? :D Maybe I'll try trading them in at a trader place.

[Prototype]

When these both hit the consumer market, I would have swarn that HD-DVD would have won the battle for two main reasons... the simplicity of the name, and the reputation of SONY. I would have put money on it that HD would have come out on top.

It's almost still worth buying the player and movies now to get them at an awesome price. Sure... the player will be considered archaic, but I'd imagine that without any compitetion, the Blu-Ray players will still have a heafty price tag, and movies for the time being will still be $30+.

I'd almost buy Transformers and an HD Player for under $200, then to buy it when it comes out on Blu-Ray. :)