Murder/Suicide Houses

[FlamesAddiction]

Is it true or just a myth that you can save a lot of money buying a murder and/or suicide house? I have heard of this, but haven't actually seen the evidence.

And if true, is it due to stigma/superstition, or is it just because the family wants to get rid of it fast? If it's the latter, you wouldn't think think the devaluation would be long lasting. If it is the former, does the devaluation last?

Also, does someone selling have to disclose such information?

I was thinking of going this route if the opportunity comes up (assuming there are deals to be had).

Thanks.

[bizaro86]

I can't imagine this comes up that often. The closest thing I recall is a condo I looked at that had no carpet or flooring of any kind. Apparently the resident was an older man living alone who had fallen over and died, and then not been found until a neighbour complained about the smell. So the carpets came out and a restoration company did some work, and the bank was selling off the condo. (This was in 2009, it was worth less than what he had paid so the estate didn't want it).

Didn't end up buying it. Wouldn't have bothered me, but my wife felt differently. They did disclose the situation to buyers, but I don't think you'd have to, although I'm not positive about that.

[Dion]

I remember looking at a house in the early 90's where the owner had shot himself in the basement with a shotgun. IIRC the family of the son wanted a quick sale with the list price being well below market value. It made sense in the fact that as I was walking towards the house I saw another realtor tell the wife of some husband what had happened with her woofing her cookies on the front lawn.

I never did buy the house as the idea of someone comitting suicide in the basement creeped me out.

[Cowboy89]

I never did buy the house as the idea of someone comitting suicide in the basement creeped me out.

That's probably the reason for a long-term price discount. If I bought a house and didn't know someone was murdered there or committed suicide there I could probably live as peacefully as I could in any other place. But if I knew, it would probably creep me out a bit. One of those cases of 'Ignorance is bliss"

I would also think it would be ethical for realtors to disclose this, because I can imagine a scenario where someone could buy a house without knowing about the murder or suicide, live happily there, and then find out months later from neighbors and be unable to sleep sound or peacefully enjoy the property after knowing.

[Daradon]

Course there are some properties that actually go up in price from a INFAMOUS murder or suicide, but those are even rarer still.

Would love to know the actual story about it here in Canada. As Flames Addiction said, is it merely cause of motivated sellers, or does it actually affect value generally?

[troutman]

Stigmatized real estate listings


http://www.montrealgazette.com/business/Stigmatized+real+estate+listings+disclosure+rules+ fair+homes+that+were+grow/8036557/story.html

Debate over disclosure rules on everything from the sale of renovated former grow-ops, to houses that were the scene of violent deaths or suicides, has erupted in several Canadian provinces, pitting protection for buyers against sellers’ rights to command a fair price for their properties.

In 2006, a Quebec court ruled that former NHL great Marcel Dionne didn’t have to disclose that his son committed suicide in the basement of the St-Constant home he’d sold to buyer Sylvie Knight three years earlier (http://www.canlii.org/en/qc/qccq/doc/2006/2006qccq1260/2006qccq1260.html). Yet today, sellers are required by Quebec’s real estate watchdog, the OACIQ, to declare not just murders and suicides, but to reveal whether any deaths have occurred in the house at all when they answer the form’s question that asks for the disclosure of “any other factors” related to the value of the home.

http://www.realestatelawyers.ca/disclosure.php

STIGMATIZED PROPERTY DISCLOSURE

Is the seller obligated to disclose if there has been a murder, suicide or ghosts in the property?

NO. There is no "law" in Ontario that requires the seller to provide disclosure of a murder, suicide or ghosts in a property.

However, Realtors are governed by RECO and their local real estate boards which have rules and regulations regarding disclosure and require Real Estate Agents to disclose any material facts that affect the market value of the property. Therefore, if a Real Estate Agent has knowledge of an event such as a murder they are required to disclose such information to the purchaser (in most cases - depending on how long ago the event took place). Real Estate Agents must be careful to avoid misrepresentations, error and concealment of facts.

[troutman]

http://calgaryrealestatereview.com/2010/07/06/

With the recent listing and sale of the Dalhousie home (http://calgary.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20100610/CGY_Lall_House_100610/20100610/?hub=CalgaryHome) that was the site of the grisly murder/suicide, some questions regarding disclosure and “stigmatized” properties may arise. Remember, stigmas are not to be confused with material latent defects (http://www.reca.ca/industry/content/legislation-bulletins/information-bulletins/material-latent-defects.html) which must always be disclosed. For the record, the Dalhousie home was publicly marketed as needing to disclose important information to any potential buyer. (The listing contained: “Please call listing agent (or have your agent contact the listing agent) for property disclosure details.”)

The following article from RECA (http://www.reca.ca/splash.htm) will help shed more light on stigmatized properties and the role you as a buyer need to play.

Alberta legislation does not define stigmatized properties. It also does not require real estate industry members to disclose events which some may consider as stigmas, unless asked about them.

Buying consumers are advised to carefully consider the areas of concern they have, discuss them with their industry members and ensure the necessary inquiries are made to avoid purchasing a property they will not feel comfortable living in. Sellers should consider the consequences of disclosure compared with no disclosure and seek legal counsel.

[troutman]

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=58553&highlight=stigmatized

[1stLand]

Not sure if this is true or not.

My aunt used to own a hair salon in the 60's & 70's and had a client that told her there is one street in the community of Shagannapi where an abnormal amount of deaths and suicides occurred over the years.

Rumor has it that the particular area where the street was located was once a significant or sacred place for the first nations people.

Not sure if there is any truth to this, but I found the story interesting.

[1stLand]

http://calgaryrealestatereview.com/2010/07/06/

With the recent listing and sale of the Dalhousie home (http://calgary.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20100610/CGY_Lall_House_100610/20100610/?hub=CalgaryHome) that was the site of the grisly murder/suicide, some questions regarding disclosure and “stigmatized” properties may arise. Remember, stigmas are not to be confused with material latent defects (http://www.reca.ca/industry/content/legislation-bulletins/information-bulletins/material-latent-defects.html) which must always be disclosed. For the record, the Dalhousie home was publicly marketed as needing to disclose important information to any potential buyer. (The listing contained: “Please call listing agent (or have your agent contact the listing agent) for property disclosure details.”)



This home ended up selling in 2010 for $360,000.
A recent City Assessment pegged the market value at over $450,000 (not withstanding the City Assessment does not factor into the Stigma attached to the home).

I find it interesting that only 3 pictures were posted on the listing. Even when the property was put up for sale again shortly after being sold

[onetwo_threefour]

I actually did a bit of research on this issue a few months ago for a seminar/meeting. There have been developments in the law relating to disclosure in Ontario that affect the answer I would have given in the thread that troutman linked to above. Here's a summary of my meeting notes...

Stigmatized properties revisited

- some recent Ontario litigation has made stigmatized properties a hot topic once again, but unfortunately it's becoming less clear rather than more.

- when we talk about stigmatized properties we usually mean a property that has some history or feature that may make it undesirable to a certain set of buyers, but generally wouldn't qualify as a defect of the property itself. (e.g. someone was killed in the property, the property was a former grow op that has been fully remediated, the house contained lead paint or asbestos at one time which has since been removed)

- unfortunately, some ongoing cases in Ontario threaten to label some forms of what we would normally think of as a stigma as a latent defect actionable by a buyer in the event of non-disclosure by the Seller.

- the particular cases in Ontario both deal with situations in which Buyers (with small children) entered into a contract to purchase a house where the Sellers did not disclose that there was a person convicted of possessing child pornography living in the immediate vicinity.

- in one case it is asserted that this fact was 'common knowledge' in the neighborhood, but it is not completely clear that the Sellers did know. With this type of scenario I would have expected it to be very difficult for the buyer to get far in a lawsuit based on the principle of caveat emptor and the fact that this 'defect' wasn't a defect of the property itself that made it uninhabitable or not what the Buyers thought they were getting. There is nothing wrong with the property itself, it is a fact about the neighborhood that is alleged to be a latent defect.

- a preliminary application was made in the case to have it thrown out on the basis that the case did not have basis known to law. I would have a expected a reasonably good chance of having the case thrown out on that basis, but the judge decided that the case had enough merit to go forward.

- allowing this case to go forward is what really makes this an unknown quantity. If knowing that a sex offender lives in the community is deemed to be a latent defect of the property it becomes very difficult to predict what other circumstances of the community might be deemed to be a latent defect. What if the buyers are older people without children? What if the property itself has never been a grow op, but the house next door has been? What if a woman was killed in the house three doors down or at the other end of the block and the prospective buyer is a young single woman? It is unclear what kind of a precednet this would set for assessing the difference between a stigma and an actionable defect.

- if the principle of latent defects is actually extended to circumstances about neighbouring properties or the community, or unprovable issues about the property such as alleged hauntings, it could have a serious depressing effect on a homes value as it gives a buyer an excuse to lowball even if they personally don't care about the issue. I would prefer to see this type of thing remain a matter of buyer's due diligence. However, there is no clear answer. and if your seller does know about some kind of stigmatism relating to a nearby property or their own the best advice at the moment may be to counsel them that the law is unclear at the present time. If they disclose to prospective buyers, they certainly avoid the risk of being sued at a later date, but they also are potentially weakining their bargaining position substantially. If directly asked by a prospective buyer they are certainly obligated to disclose any potential stigma they are asked about.

- if the Seller actually a discloses a stigma to you as the Realtor it puts you in a difficult position as well. If the seller instructs you not to disclose, even if asked directly you must advise them that you have an ethical obligation to disclose once you know if you are asked.

- The second Ontario case I was referring to earlier involves a very similar set of facts. The only significant difference from what I have read is the the Sellers were actually Realtors themselves. While this case also has not been finalized, there seems to be a strong consensus that the Sellers will likely be liable for non-disclosure of the sex offender nearby because of the Realtor's disclosure obligations under the Ontario equivalent of our Real Estate Act when a realtor divests themselves pf property. When selling one of your own properties, you may have an active duty to disclose stigmas.

- counsel for the Canadian Real Estate Association takes the same view as I do, that stigma should generally be a matter for Buyer's due diligence, but remains an open question and should be dealt with carefully.

[troutman]

Just had lunch with a senior Calgary realtor. He said his practice would be to disclose.

[onetwo_threefour]

You get lunch?!? I'm jealous...

[troutman]

You get lunch?!? I'm jealous...

I'll take you for lunch!

[pylon]

I am not religious or superstitious by any stretch. But there was a triple axe murder in Lake Bonavista, just a couple blocks from my folks place, and just walking past that house makes me feel uncomfortable knowing the horror that went inside there. Like full on Overlook Hotel stuff. I personally think a place like that should be bulldozed, and a park put up or something. How someone can live in there to save a hundred bucks a month on a mortgage payment is beyond me.

[Bill Bumface]

How someone can live in there to save a hundred bucks a month on a mortgage payment is beyond me.

They house didn't kill anyone ;)

I'm sure you drive through many intersections where people lost their sons and daughters in horrific traffic accidents all the time.

I'm sure we've all stayed in a hotel room where something horrible has happened.

For someone that doesn't know the victims and wasn't around when it happened, I can see it being no big deal.

[Philly06Cup]

STIGMATIZED PROPERTY DISCLOSURE

Is the seller obligated to disclose if there has been a murder, suicide or ghosts in the property?

NO. There is no "law" in Ontario that requires the seller to provide disclosure of a murder, suicide or ghosts in a property.

However, Realtors are governed by RECO and their local real estate boards which have rules and regulations regarding disclosure and require Real Estate Agents to disclose any material facts that affect the market value of the property. Therefore, if a Real Estate Agent has knowledge of an event such as a murder they are required to disclose such information to the purchaser (in most cases - depending on how long ago the event took place). Real Estate Agents must be careful to avoid misrepresentations, error and concealment of facts.

LOL at the ghosts part.

[bizaro86]

Yeah, I'm not sure what I would do if I got a disclosure from a seller of a property that it had a ghost.

[dissentowner]

Yeah, I'm not sure what I would do if I got a disclosure from a seller of a property that it had a ghost.
I would do a happy dance myself. I am intrigued by paranormal stuff, that would be a selling point for me. As far as living in a murder house, no big deal to me.

[Flabbibulin]

No chance I would buy one, even if it came at a considerable discount.

[Burninator]

I personally wouldn't be worried about living in a haunted house because ghosts never bother people who don't believe in them.

[KelVarnsen]

I would buy the Jealous Jockey Murders house, pretty sweet digs.

[burn_baby_burn]

I am not religious or superstitious by any stretch. But there was a triple axe murder in Lake Bonavista, just a couple blocks from my folks place, and just walking past that house makes me feel uncomfortable knowing the horror that went inside there. Like full on Overlook Hotel stuff. I personally think a place like that should be bulldozed, and a park put up or something. How someone can live in there to save a hundred bucks a month on a mortgage payment is beyond me.

I thought of that very thing when I was visiting Vimy Ridge in France. There is a care takers house not far from the monument, and I couldn't help but think that the person living there couldn't be superstitious in the least. Considering how many tens of thousands of lives were lost in such a small area over the course of the War.

Not to mention a lot of other places in Europe where thousands were killed in conflicts through out history.

[Travis Munroe]

The thing is any competent realtor should be able to do a good job filtering out some of the possibilities.
I google every property address a client is looking to buy. If it is a registered grow op it will come up in the first few results under alberta health. I would assume that any newspaper articles on a murder would include the address and this should come up as well???
I myself am going to have to revisit the rules on disclosure. Selling such a stigmatized property is one of those things I have never encountered.
As for other stigmas, if asked you must tell. I sold an estate sale and a common question was "did the seller die at the property"? Although this specific situation it was not the case, it was actually considered to be a deal breaker for many.

[tvp2003]

I live in a house built in 1913... I'm sure it has seen a lot in 100 years!

[GGG]

I dont understand why people are concerned that it could be a murder house. A coat of paint and some new carpet and I wouldnt have any issues.

[onetwo_threefour]

The mix of reactions in this thread is exactly why I think it should be a matter of Buyer's due diligence. If this is the kind of thing that would bother you, then you should ask when you're thinking about buying a house.

For me, death wouldn't bother me, as long as it wasn't really grisly and recent, then I might hesitate. However, I would ask every time if there have been any grow-ops on the block in the past 5 years, simply because, in my experience, they often cluster, and bring a potential for bad traffic, violence, and associated collateral mayhem that would make me think twice about a property.

If I'm worried about that, I should ask questions and investigate. If I'm worried that a pedophile or sex offender might live nearby I should investigate that possibility and ask that question. Why does the Seller have to guess what the Buyer might be worried about? Ghosts? Pets buried in the back yard? Annoying neighbours that play loud music or smoke on their balcony? Where does it end?

[To Be Quite Honest]

Just sage the house and you'll be fine. Also collect baby tears and pour a drop at each entry way. Problems gone...

[RogerWilco]

Seems like this house is still selling well, or not.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/03/showbiz/movies/amityville-horror-house-for-sale

The real one sold as well

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/108-Ocean-Ave-Amityville-NY-11701/32596605_zpid/

[skudr248]

Would never purchase a home that has had anyone die in it, regardless of murder, suicide, or natural death. I get seriously uncomfortable with even the thought of living in a place, let alone stepping into a place that has had someone die in it. Would rather build, but thats me though

[icarus]

I am not religious or superstitious by any stretch. But there was a triple axe murder in Lake Bonavista, just a couple blocks from my folks place, and just walking past that house makes me feel uncomfortable knowing the horror that went inside there. Like full on Overlook Hotel stuff. I personally think a place like that should be bulldozed, and a park put up or something. How someone can live in there to save a hundred bucks a month on a mortgage payment is beyond me.Your folks must live near my folks. I too have walked past that house and seen the current residents busily working in the yard, and thought 'Do they know? They must know.'

[FlamesAddiction]

Your folks must live near my folks. I too have walked past that house and seen the current residents busily working in the yard, and thought 'Do they know? They must know.'

You should mess with them. Find a name and desciption of one of the victims, then strike up a conversation and mention that you were walking by the other day and talked to "so and so" or saw "so and so playing in the yard", but don't lead on like you know anything about the murders.

[Rathji]

Would never purchase a home that has had anyone die in it, regardless of murder, suicide, or natural death. I get seriously uncomfortable with even the thought of living in a place, let alone stepping into a place that has had someone die in it. Would rather build, but thats me though

Here is a tip:

Never go to a hospital or get into an ambulance.

[troutman]

House for sale. Full disclosure: haunted

http://doubtfulnews.com/2013/04/house-for-sale-full-disclosure-haunted/

A death in a house is not considered a “material defect” in Pennsylvania

http://doubtfulnews.com/2013/01/a-death-in-a-house-is-not-considered-a-material-defect-in-pennsylvania/

In a decision handed up in Pennsylvania last week, a panel of Superior Court judges reaffirmed that the sordid reputation of a home – no matter how gruesome – does not count as “material defect” and does not have to be disclosed to the buyer.

“The fact that a murder once occurred in a house falls into that category of homebuyer concerns best left to caveat emptor” – let the buyer beware, the court wrote.

[carom]

You should mess with them. Find a name and desciption of one of the victims, then strike up a conversation and mention that you were walking by the other day and talked to "so and so" or saw "so and so playing in the yard", but don't lead on like you know anything about the murders.

IIRC a father killed his wife and two daughters so that would be a pretty crappy thing to do.

I think that house sat empty for a while after it happened because I remember driving past it fairly often in the years following and not seeming like it was lived in. It's kind of odd too because growing up in Canyon Meadows there was other murders I remember occurring and sometimes I would think about it when I was at the 7-11 or going past a house that a murder occurred in, but I certainly noticed that house in Bonavista every time I drove by.

[pylon]

That house sold almost immediately. My mother was a realtor at the time.

[Iceman90]

Haunted houses are always cheap!