Contemplating an addition

[Knalus]

I am currently living in a smaller home in Renfrew, and am contemplating putting an extension onto my home. The addition would be about 450 sq ft or so, on a home about 850 sq ft in size right now. I have a coworker that is puting an addition onto her house, quite similar to what I am contemplating, with the exception that I would want to have a bathroom on the addition, whereas she is not. We are/would be both doing it ourselves (ie. no builder/developer).

I have a good idea of the cost of the addition. What I do not know is what is the house going to be worth if an addition is put on. The current house is great, it is an older house but it is in great repair, looks nice on the exterior, and is on a nice little street. Current value of the house is just under $400.

What do you think? How much extra would I be able to get for that additional 450 sq ft? What do you figure the break-even price is for what I should spend to do it?

[Travis Munroe]

My experience, you are better off spending the addition money on updating your property.
I just went to a property in Willow park where a extension was added and after preparing a market analysis, this individual was not too thrilled. I put his property at the same value as other properties that were 3-500 square feet smaller but had done quite a bit of renovations.

The next question would be, what is easier to sell in the future... with most people looking for a home requiring little to no work, the updated property will typically sell before the older one with a extra 400 sq ft.

That is my 0.02 although there is really no black and white answer.

[Knalus]

My experience, you are better off spending the addition money on updating your property.
I just went to a property in Willow park where a extension was added and after preparing a market analysis, this individual was not too thrilled. I put his property at the same value as other properties that were 3-500 square feet smaller but had done quite a bit of renovations.

The next question would be, what is easier to sell in the future... with most people looking for a home requiring little to no work, the updated property will typically sell before the older one with a extra 400 sq ft.

That is my 0.02 although there is really no black and white answer.

I see what you are saying, but I would find it hard to justify updating a kitchen when there isn't room for a dining room. There would be updating involved, but that updating would be better spent if the addition was there.

Imagine if the house was completely updated. What would it look like then?

[Travis Munroe]

If the entire house was updated + you had the addition it could still be questionable. The saying "You never want the nicest or worst house on the street" is very true. By doing an addition and update, are you going to be the "castle" on the street? Are people going to pay 500k for a home on a street with 400k properties or would they go elsewhere?

Then again, if an addition/update will bring your house to be on the same level as others in the area I would say go for it. You always want to get as much out of your place as buyers are willing to pay in the area.

[Knalus]

If the entire house was updated + you had the addition it could still be questionable. The saying "You never want the nicest or worst house on the street" is very true. By doing an addition and update, are you going to be the "castle" on the street? Are people going to pay 500k for a home on a street with 400k properties or would they go elsewhere?

Then again, if an addition/update will bring your house to be on the same level as others in the area I would say go for it. You always want to get as much out of your place as buyers are willing to pay in the area.


Nowhere near the castle. at 2500 sq ft, I might be pushing that. There is no standard size in my neighbourhood. Houses go from 300k to 800k on average, millions if you are on the ridge. In fact the average price in my neighbourhood is closer to 500k than 400k.

[mykalberta]

Likely not much help to you, but my parents added about a 500sq sunroom to their home in 2001ish. Everything worked great for 2 years but spring of yr 3 the roof leaked. I guess when you are adding on roofs, make sure you get someone who knows what they are doing because if they dont seel it correctly then water will get in, and freeze and then the roof will leak like a bat out of he77.

[Bill Bumface]

Does anyone have pricing for this kind of thing? We were hoping to push one side of our house about 5 feet, both stories (along with some interior rearrangement upstairs to add another bedroom). I'd want do do it without digging a foundation, just piers or whatever.

When I was researching it, it really did seem like it's close to a break even scenario when compared to moving.

If you are selling a $500,000 place you have well over $20,000 out the door on realtor/lawyer/moving costs. Often easily $25,000. That gives adding on a nice little head start.

[You Need a Thneed]

Does anyone have pricing for this kind of thing? We were hoping to push one side of our house about 5 feet, both stories (along with some interior rearrangement upstairs to add another bedroom). I'd want do do it without digging a foundation, just piers or whatever.

When I was researching it, it really did seem like it's close to a break even scenario when compared to moving.

If you are selling a $500,000 place you have well over $20,000 out the door on realtor/lawyer/moving costs. Often easily $25,000. That gives adding on a nice little head start.

You'll probably need a foundation of at least grade beams, to get under the frost line.

Pricing? it depends on how much you do yourself, and how much change there is to the more expensive systems (mechanical & electrical)

[moncton golden flames]

Does anyone have pricing for this kind of thing? We were hoping to push one side of our house about 5 feet, both stories (along with some interior rearrangement upstairs to add another bedroom). I'd want do do it without digging a foundation, just piers or whatever.

When I was researching it, it really did seem like it's close to a break even scenario when compared to moving.

If you are selling a $500,000 place you have well over $20,000 out the door on realtor/lawyer/moving costs. Often easily $25,000. That gives adding on a nice little head start.

for pete's sake, do not cheap out on your foundation if your addition will be 2 storeys. ideally, i would like to see a 4' deep frost wall around the perimeter. next best option would be concrete piles, 4' deep min. (or even screw piles) with grade beam. anything less and you're throwing your money away.

[OldDutch]

Likely not much help to you, but my parents added about a 500sq sunroom to their home in 2001ish. Everything worked great for 2 years but spring of yr 3 the roof leaked. I guess when you are adding on roofs, make sure you get someone who knows what they are doing because if they dont seel it correctly then water will get in, and freeze and then the roof will leak like a bat out of he77.

Ya, I had this problem on my re-roofed infill. Problem is I got a reputable company to do it. I think they had a Rookie work on my house though.

The dumbo didn't place the bent metal on the top of my skylight under the shingles, he placed it over. Que 2 years later and I have a flooded bathroom and destroyed ceiling. The roofing company would even take responsibility, and after fighting with them, I ended up going through insurance.

Another casualty of 2008 era workmanship I guess. Still ticks me off these big outfits can hire morons, and you won't find out until years later.

I can tell you what company that was if you PM me.

[moncton golden flames]

Ya, I had this problem on my re-roofed infill. Problem is I got a reputable company to do it. I think they had a Rookie work on my house though.

The dumbo didn't place the bent metal on the top of my skylight under the shingles, he placed it over. Que 2 years later and I have a flooded bathroom and destroyed ceiling. The roofing company would even take responsibility, and after fighting with them, I ended up going through insurance.

Another casualty of 2008 era workmanship I guess. Still ticks me off these big outfits can hire morons, and you won't find out until years later.

I can tell you what company that was if you PM me.

i am placing no blame on you at all, this is just an observation. anytime you hire a trade to do work for you, always stay on top of them and ask questions. if anything doesn't look right, chances are it isn't. you pay them, they work for you, whether you get quality work done or not, you have to take some responsibility for hiring them, so be picky and tell them exactly what you want.

[Knalus]

for pete's sake, do not cheap out on your foundation if your addition will be 2 storeys. ideally, i would like to see a 4' deep frost wall around the perimeter. next best option would be concrete piles, 4' deep min. (or even screw piles) with grade beam. anything less and you're throwing your money away.

From what I have seen, the nominal additional costs of a full basement addition is minor compared to the extra space gained.

[You Need a Thneed]

From what I have seen, the nominal additional costs of a full basement addition is minor compared to the extra space gained.
Yup, youlikely put in a grade beam 4 feet into the ground anyway, you might as well make it slightly deeper and pour a floor, and then you have a basement.

Basement space is quite cheap to build, and that's why pretty much every house in Calgary is built with a basement.

[OldDutch]

i am placing no blame on you at all, this is just an observation. anytime you hire a trade to do work for you, always stay on top of them and ask questions. if anything doesn't look right, chances are it isn't. you pay them, they work for you, whether you get quality work done or not, you have to take some responsibility for hiring them, so be picky and tell them exactly what you want.

The company I hired is a well awarded roofer. They came in and gave me a portfolio of houses on my street they did in previous years. Short of me goingng up there and checking the roofing work, which I know little about past shingles, I couldn't really check their work.

At some point you have to trust, because you'll never know what these trades do in their entirety. You hire who is has top referrals, ask some questions, and after that there is some trust involved.

My point was that no matter what the pedigree of company, you can get screwed. I wasn't adding much more here past my refferal of what company it was via PM. Yes I guess I do have some blame, but I asked questions, went by refferal, and and picked a BBB company. What more do you expect?

[fundmark19]

Did you report the problem with BBB? I have always been curious what happens with them during a complaint process

[Bill Bumface]

for pete's sake, do not cheap out on your foundation if your addition will be 2 storeys. ideally, i would like to see a 4' deep frost wall around the perimeter. next best option would be concrete piles, 4' deep min. (or even screw piles) with grade beam. anything less and you're throwing your money away.


Sorry, I typed pier, but meant pile. Absolutely want something deep enough so I don't have one roof turn into 2 ;)

[OldDutch]

Did you report the problem with BBB? I have always been curious what happens with them during a complaint process

No I didn't, and I fully admit that was really dumb of me. The whole time I assumed that the roofer would come through and fix it. By the time I realized that wasn't happening, it was too late to start a compliant. Lesson learned.

On the side, I did have friends do BBB complaints. I won't get into details but they were less than satisfied with the process. It seemed to them like a rigged process from the start to protect the business is what I was told.

[darklord700]

If you watch enough Mike Holmes, you'll never want to put an addition to your current home.

[JMN]

http://ca.finance.yahoo.com/blogs/insight/top-renovations-may-want-rethink-170525310.html

[FurnaceFace]

I've been toying with enclosing our back covered deck and bumping out the house for a number of years. I had talked to my sister and brother in law (who are both architects) and they suggested a rule of thumb was $100/sq foot. They are in Vancouver so costs may vary but I think it's a reasonable guide.

The other thought I'd have on whether to do the work on not is how long you plan to be in the house. If the Reno improves your enjoyment of the house and would result in you staying there for a long time then I don't think it really matters too much. If it's move vs reno and the reno means you'll stick in the house for 10 years then might as well do it I'd say. If it wouldn't really change how long you'll live in the house then probably better to spend the money on freshening everything up.

[moncton golden flames]

I've been toying with enclosing our back covered deck and bumping out the house for a number of years. I had talked to my sister and brother in law (who are both architects) and they suggested a rule of thumb was $100/sq foot. They are in Vancouver so costs may vary but I think it's a reasonable guide.

The other thought I'd have on whether to do the work on not is how long you plan to be in the house. If the Reno improves your enjoyment of the house and would result in you staying there for a long time then I don't think it really matters too much. If it's move vs reno and the reno means you'll stick in the house for 10 years then might as well do it I'd say. If it wouldn't really change how long you'll live in the house then probably better to spend the money on freshening everything up.

$100 a square foot is damn cheap. i'd be weary of any contractor who quoted that low here in calgary.

[Bill Bumface]

What's a reasonable range?

I was told by someone with half a clue (former building experience, but not currently tied in) to bank on ~$100,000 to add 5' x 2 stories on the side of our house (about 27' long) with no bathrooms/kitchens involved. Is that way low? I know its hard to say without much for detail, but I was curious if that savings goal is remotely reasonable.

[moncton golden flames]

so your addition is 135 sq ft per floor, for a total of 270 sq ft. let's just say a sq ft price of $250 is used, which is a high level of finish, a rough cost of $67,500 is an estimate. add in any design fees, permit fees etc... and you might creep up towards $75,000.

needless to say, the advice given to you is a little high, but as with renovations, you never know what never know what you might find once you open up the walls. to have about $100,000 available to you for all costs and unforeseen incidentals, would be a safe bet.

be careful of the type of contract you get into with a builder. it could be a 'cost +' or an 'all inclusive'. if you go cost+, demand that the builder provides you with a copy of all invoices he receives from suppliers. i have heard stories from clients who have entered a cost+ contract with a builder, but the builder had a good relationship with some suppliers, and they presented the client one invoice, but the builder paid a discounted industry price. this gave the builder profit on the payment and his +. needless to say, once the home owners found out, they were livid. the builder was double dipping and making a killing.

example in case i wasn't clear.

a bathtub costs $500. but the builder gets a better deal than retail from a supplier and only paid $400 for the tub. the builder provides the $500 invoice to the client and pockets the $100. on top of that, he probably added a 30-35% management fee. this scenario also requires a supplier to go along with the scheme, but it does happen.

if you get an 'all inclusive' be careful as well. make sure there are provisions to cover your arse for cost overruns, construction delay costs etc.. also, be very attentive during construction, as corners will be cut in order for the builder to maximize the opportunity for profits.

[darklord700]

so your addition is 135 sq ft per floor, for a total of 270 sq ft. let's just say a sq ft price of $250 is used, which is a high level of finish, a rough cost of $67,500 is an estimate. add in any design fees, permit fees etc... and you might creep up towards $75,000.


$75K-$100K for 270 sq ft of space seems expensive. Wouldn't moving be a better option?

[moncton golden flames]

$75K-$100K for 270 sq ft of space seems expensive. Wouldn't moving be a better option?

it could probably be done for as low as $50 or $60k, it all depends on how the interior trims out. i quoted a little high, becomes people want certain things, like flooring, mouldings, fixtures etc... but don't always realize how expensive they are, and get sticker shock. always over budget for any build.

[Bill Bumface]

$75K-$100K for 270 sq ft of space seems expensive. Wouldn't moving be a better option?

Here's the factors I consider in my own situation:

-Selling/buying/moving with realty/moving/lawyer fees would be about a $25,000 transaction.

-So if we take the $75,000 estimate, that now knocks it down to $50,000 for 270 sq ft.

-The house rang in at $472/sq. ft (lot was a big portion of the price), but even if we got $100/sq ft in resale on the addition that is $27,000, leaving it a $13,000 disadvantage to moving

-work we've done to the house itself and to the yard to get it where we like it is easily in the $5000-$7000 range, mostly sunk costs we wouldn't get selling.

-Now I consider the fact that if we move it's likely we go a touch over our budget seeing the "right" house, or end up financing the money we would have spent on the addition via a mortgage which would lead to way higher interest costs.

It took a lot of looking to find the right house in the right location, so I put a price on the ability to stay put as well. If we added onto the place we could stay there the rest of our lives, no problem.

[darklord700]

If we added onto the place we could stay there the rest of our lives, no problem.

If you can do that vs moving multiple times like some people do, then the addition makes sense moneywise.

[bizaro86]

Yup, youlikely put in a grade beam 4 feet into the ground anyway, you might as well make it slightly deeper and pour a floor, and then you have a basement.

Basement space is quite cheap to build, and that's why pretty much every house in Calgary is built with a basement.

What about lowering the foundation of a house that has only a crawl space to add a basement? I assume that would be pricey?

[fundmark19]

you normally go the other way and raise the house by cutting foundation framing up and adding a new support beam

[You Need a Thneed]

What about lowering the foundation of a house that has only a crawl space to add a basement? I assume that would be pricey?

Yup, pretty pricey. You would definitely want a structural engineer involved as well.

To do something like this, you essentially have to do it in little pieces. Let's say every other 8 feet section along a wall first, and then do the stuff in between second. We've done it before.

[bizaro86]

Yup, pretty pricey. You would definitely want a structural engineer involved as well.

To do something like this, you essentially have to do it in little pieces. Let's say every other 8 feet section along a wall first, and then do the stuff in between second. We've done it before.

My SWAG was 25-35k for a house with a 1200 ft2 footprint, does that seem like it'd be in the ballpark, or keep going higher?

[trublmaker]

[QUOTE=

example in case i wasn't clear.

a bathtub costs $500. but the builder gets a better deal than retail from a supplier and only paid $400 for the tub. the builder provides the $500 invoice to the client and pockets the $100. on top of that, he probably added a 30-35% management fee. this scenario also requires a supplier to go along with the scheme, but it does happen.

if you get an 'all inclusive' be careful as well. make sure there are provisions to cover your arse for cost overruns, construction delay costs etc.. also, be very attentive during construction, as corners will be cut in order for the builder to maximize the opportunity for profits.[/QUOTE]

As a contractor myself, it usually takes time, reputation etc to get good prices from suppliers because I buy alot and am a good customer. A home owner CAN'T get my prices, that's why I'm a contractor. when I add on my mark up it is still cheaper than the average person can get and I always offer the home owner to either supply materials themselves or I will do it. Of course I make money on it, that's why I'm in business, so your idea of a contractor "pocketing" money with the supplier "going along with it " is very misleading.