A Song of Ice and Fire **Spoilers** Now more TV talk!

[Bobblehead]

This is a thread for the book series, A Song of Ice and Fire, by George RR Martin.


If you are only watching the HBO Series "A Game of Thrones", stop reading and leave the thread; there WILL be spoilers here ("It is known"). Anything published can be discussed. So if you aren't up to the end of the series, you may want to wait until you are caught up with the series before reading on.

Edit: All talk about the TV show is encouraged here. Leave the other "Game of Thrones" thread to the folk who haven't read the books. We don't think anyone intentionally is spoiling the other thread, but it is really easy to accidentally foreshadow and many there don't want any hints. Besides, it will be more fun to see their response when the surprises really do happen.

[Bigtime]

Awesome, thanks for starting this thread!

So just who is Queen Marghery messing around with?

Is Sandor Clegane still alive, and living as a monk on that island? Will he rise up and fight his zombie brother in an epic battle?

[Bobblehead]

I skipped reading the thread for a while as I was late reading Dance with Dragons, so this may already be well known but GRRM posted a chapter from Winds of Winter.

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html

[IliketoPuck]

My guess is that Jon Snow will get resurrected by the Red priestess. Likely that Ghost has killed everyone responsible for the murder.

[Zevo]

My guess is that Jon Snow will get resurrected by the Red priestess. Likely that Ghost has killed everyone responsible for the murder.
That's my guess too. It's also possible Jons spirit ends up taking over ghost, although I don't think very likely. Third possibility is Jon doesn't die at all. Kind of like when Aria took the axe to the head. He was stabbed 4 times though.

It's going to be a long fataing wait!

[Tinordi]

My guess is Jon lives inside Ghost. Bookends well with the story that started Dance with Dragons.

[Zevo]

My guess is Jon lives inside Ghost. Bookends well with the story that started Dance with Dragons.
Ya kind of what I was thinking too. Would be a cool story arc. Personally I hope he is resurrected. One of the Starks has to vengence at some point or I'm going to pissed. I guess that could be Bran.

[smoothpops]

when is the 5th book being made into a paper back?

[Rubicant]

Depending on how much time passes, I would like to see Rickon come back with Shaggydog and lay some beat downs.

I also think Arya winds up getting some vengeance as well after coming back from the free cities.

[simonsays]

Kind of strange that one of the best characteristics of the early books is that anyone can die, but one of the characteristics of the later books is that X will surely come back to life. Looking forward to book 6.

BTW the dvds of season 1 are 30$ at amazon right now. Oh, and book 5 has a fair amount of cannibalism.

[GreenLantern]

Finally. I thought about making this thread a few times, but feared the mass crying.

Now it is not on me.

I will love this thread.

I was having a discussion about John Snow earlier today. Is that guy actually dead? Martin said in an interview that yes, he did die.

So which way will he come back? Red priest? Warg? Or was he a tool to build up the northern story line, and now that it is reaching the climax, or has reached, and has the kiddies up there he no longer needed John Snow to show the way and could get rid of him.

[Bobblehead]

Red priest - if Beric can be brought back so can John, especially since we were already told how powerful she was this close to the wall.

[Bigtime]

I still think that Jon Snow will be resurrected by Melisandre and that he is Azor Ahai reborn. Just before Jon's "death" there are multiple symbols that Melisandre has seen in her flames. She saw a bleeding star, and just before Jon is stabbed the giant is killing a soldier that bears a star as his sigil, and it is covered in blood. There were a few more things to, Melisandre believes that Stannis is Azor Ahai reborn, however whenever she looks in the flames for him she sees snow.

[Bigtime]

I'm also really looking forward to Barristan Selmy wrecking it up in Mereen, he just seemed so pumped up that it was going to come to battle. He and Davos have become some of my favourite secondary characters.

Speaking of Davos, it will be interesting to see how his trip to cannibal island goes to find Rickon.

Still one of the best iceburn lines in the entire series is Wyman Manderly dropping this gem on some Frey's upon hearing that little Walder Frey was found dead:

"Though mayhaps this was a blessing. Had he lived he would have grown up to be a Frey"

[FacePaint]

My thoughts were that Jon Snow would come back as an "other". All he felt was cold as he took the last stab so maybe his spirit went to one of the others in the cells under the wall? I'd assume that Ghost would be killed shortly after Jon, but that Jon would resurrect Ghost as a wight. Maybe he can be a good other?

My wild(ling) guess...

[Coys1882]

Most of the ideas about Jon make sense - he might turn out like Coldhands (Benjen?) a white walker with memory of his former self or something along those lines.

[Tinordi]

I think Selmy is soon going to find himself way over his head. He's not a political operator. Infact I think he's going to be the first character to bite the dust in the next book.

[Boblobla]

I hope John doesn't just become a Warg, if he does I am worried the questions of his parentage will never be answered. There are some interesting ideas out there.

Dany better do something in the next book. I am looking forward to getting more Semly chapters.

There has been a chapter of the next book release somewhere, a Theon chapter, has anyone else read it?

What are the rules here for spoilers? Anything that has been published is fair game an future book spoilers are in spoiler tags until release?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

I hope John doesn't just become a Warg, if he does I am worried the questions of his parentage will never be answered. There are some interesting ideas out there.

Dany better do something in the next book. I am looking forward to getting more Semly chapters.

There has been a chapter of the next book release somewhere, a Theon chapter, has anyone else read it?

What are the rules here for spoilers? Anything that has been published is fair game an future book spoilers are in spoiler tags until release?

This is just my opinion of course but anything that isn't in books 1-5 is not ok to talk about without spoiler tags.

I like to go in knowing as little as possible.

As for Jon's parentage, I almost feel like Martin may skip the mystery of his mother altogether. She was just some woman and it wasn't Cat. I don't know if it has to have some crazy twist about her identity.

[Coys1882]

I thought I'd throw this link up for anyone not aware of it.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Main_Page

[IliketoPuck]

Most of the ideas about Jon make sense - he might turn out like Coldhands (Benjen?) a white walker with memory of his former self or something along those lines.

One does not simply kill off Barristan Selmy. Old bugger has some serious skills.

I'm also curious to see what happens with the battle in the south, and how long the protector guy can last before becoming a stone skinned guy. And whether or not Winterfell can be retaken.

[Matata]

nmd, am dumb.

[Coys1882]

As for Jon's parentage, I almost feel like Martin may skip the mystery of his mother altogether. She was just some woman and it wasn't Cat. I don't know if it has to have some crazy twist about her identity.
There's no fun in that!!! :)

I personally like the one that is Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.

[Resolute 14]

There's no fun in that!!! :)

I personally like the one that is Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.

Wouldn't you expect him to have that pure white hair then?

If Sean Bean could figure out that Gendry was Robert's illegitimate child just by looking at him, you'd think someone would pick up that Jon looks somewhat like Rhaegar did.

It does seem likely that Jon is Lyanna's child though, as the first book had Eddard promising something to Lyanna in a flashback. What that was hasn't been revealed yet.

[Coys1882]

Wouldn't you expect him to have that pure white hair then?

If Sean Bean could figure out that Gendry was Robert's illegitimate child just by looking at him, you'd think someone would pick up that Jon looks somewhat like Rhaegar did.

It does seem likely that Jon is Lyanna's child though, as the first book had Eddard promising something to Lyanna in a flashback. What that was hasn't been revealed yet.
yah - you're probably right about the white hair - it's the same theory behind why Robert is the father 'the seed is strong'

[Ashartus]

yah - you're probably right about the white hair - it's the same theory behind why Robert is the father 'the seed is strong'

But the white hair might not be as dominant a trait - I think the reason why it runs in Rhaegar's family is due to all the inbreeding; the Targaryens didn't generally marry outside the family.

[Tinordi]

Eitherway, what happened to Jon is pretty stupid. Martin has completely nullified the significance of death when it was so important in the beginning of the series.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

I mentioned this in the other thread, but there haven't been enough fake deaths to worry me. There have been how many major characters killed? 5? 10?

And how many fake deaths? 4 or 5?

Furthermore, other than Cat pretty much all of the fake deaths have more been the way he writes. Several of the deaths have simply been him using ambiguous writing to throw us off when they aren't really dead.

If everyone that dies was coming back like Zombie Cat I'd be worried.

[Resolute 14]

In my mind there is a large difference between a fake death (Kat) and misinformation (Bran, Rickon). There haven't been too many of the former, though with the white walkers, the concept of being resurrected into basically a zombie has been established since page 1.

[Hanni]

Even with Arya, maybe it was just the way I read it, I thought she was dead. Taking an axe to the back of the head lead me to that assumption, then when it turned out to be the flat of the axe I felt screwed with. Like Martin wrote it that way so that you would think she's dead just to mess with the reader. Which is fine, but when you kill off major characters, and pretty much exclusively protagonists, and then throw in a couple fake deaths, it desensitizes the reader. I still really enjoy the books, but I have stopped caring about the characters to the point where when Jon got stabbed I thought big surprise, one of the few characters left I like is probably dead, or maybe not and I don't really care.

[Bobblehead]

What sort of "future book spoilers" exist? Are you talking the chapters that have already been released? Or are you referring to hints that GRRM has dropped in subsequent interviews or conventions?

I think any hints through unofficial sources (torrent leak, etc) should be put in spoiler tags but anything else should be fair game. Otherwise it is just too darn uncertain as to what should or shouldn't be seen in the clear.

So unofficial leaks - spoiler tags.
Hints/previews from GRRM or his publishers - fair game.

[Bigtime]

The real spoiler is that GRRM is fat and old and will probably die before he can finish the series, leaving all of us screwed.

[Ped]

In regards to the Jon issue, Ned didn't clue in because all of Robert's children had dark hair - he clued because every time a Baratheon and a Lannister married and produced children, they were black-haired - the gold yielded before the black.

And it's mentioned that Jon purely looks like a Stark.

As for the de-sensitive to deaths, I think it all depends on the wording.

Cat came back, but not Cat - just like the shell that was Beric Dondarrion was no longer really him; he mentioned he couldn't remember his betrothed or his castle or anything from before.

With Arya and the axe, I'm sure it was meant to be misdirection, but the chapter didn't say she was dead, only she was hit in the back of the head.

The Mountain - again, it's not really clear yet, but it seems pretty safe to say he's not the same he was before.

The Hound - the monk iirc said the Hound was dead, if the limping monk is Sandor Clegane than that is pretty accurate, the Hound was a persona Sandor threw on.

Bran and Rickon - again he never came out and wrote their deaths, he left it alluded to.

And for me they aren't less shocking. Kevan's death pissed me off to no end - for me he was a very important support character and I thought he would have a bigger role to play in future.

[Boblobla]

Lyanna was a Stark, so Jon could be her kid and still look like a Stark.

I just hope we don't get a zombie John, similar to how Cat is.

[Bigtime]

Kevan's death pissed me off to no end - for me he was a very important support character and I thought he would have a bigger role to play in future.

He was also one of the only Lannister's that seemed to be a nice guy, and look what it gets him. Killed because he would actually get the kingdom up and running properly again (gotta let Cersei run it into the ground eh Varys?).

[Bobblehead]

He was also one of the only Lannister's that seemed to be a nice guy, and look what it gets him. Killed because he would actually get the kingdom up and running properly again (gotta let Cersei run it into the ground eh Varys?).

Well, it needs to be in shambles so a non-Lannister can be the one to unite it without any additional war.

And is anyone sure who Varys is backing? Is it Aegon, Dany or someone else?

That site Coys listed earlier has a crazy amount of info on it with pages and pages of theories.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

What sort of "future book spoilers" exist? Are you talking the chapters that have already been released? Or are you referring to hints that GRRM has dropped in subsequent interviews or conventions?

I think any hints through unofficial sources (torrent leak, etc) should be put in spoiler tags but anything else should be fair game. Otherwise it is just too darn uncertain as to what should or shouldn't be seen in the clear.

So unofficial leaks - spoiler tags.
Hints/previews from GRRM or his publishers - fair game.

I'm ok with this as long as any official stuff doesn't contain any major spoilers.

If Martin comes out and admits that Jon will return as a _______ it should be in spoiler tags.

On the other hand if he says "we may not have seen the last of Jon" I'm ok with it because that isn't groundbreaking.

[Bobblehead]

I'm ok with this as long as any official stuff doesn't contain any major spoilers.

If Martin comes out and admits that Jon will return as a _______ it should be in spoiler tags.

On the other hand if he says "we may not have seen the last of Jon" I'm ok with it because that isn't groundbreaking.From the Martin interviews I have read, it sounds like that is exactly how he does it. For example:
2) Will we get to see Valyria?
As it was before the Doom? As it is today?
Maybe.
3) Can you give us three unanswered questions that you expect will be answered in Winds?
I could, but I won't.
4) Is Bronn's storyline arc done? He was one of my favorite characters in the early books and in the T.V show but it seems like he came to a peak in A Feast for Crows and received no mention in A Dance with Dragons. Please keep Bronn going!
Bronn still has a part to play. He will definitely be back. http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/ox8vg/spoilers_all_books_george_rr_martin_responds_to/



I don't think you can say "major spoilers" because I doubt you will get any sort of consensus on the definition of a major spoiler. Someone may think it is fine, others may be angry.

[WhiteTiger]

As to Jon's parentage, that's cleared up in the very first book, I thought. Ned and Robert were talking about the 'good old days', Robert was talking about his wenching, and then says something along the lines of "And what about that peasant girl of yours? Jon's mother. What was her name?" IIRC, Robert guessed a few names, and Ned supplied the name and told Robert never to speak of her again.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

As to Jon's parentage, that's cleared up in the very first book, I thought. Ned and Robert were talking about the 'good old days', Robert was talking about his wenching, and then says something along the lines of "And what about that peasant girl of yours? Jon's mother. What was her name?" IIRC, Robert guessed a few names, and Ned supplied the name and told Robert never to speak of her again.

I believe it is talked about later too. The daughter of some lord that Ned killed or something. Could be lies though.

[WhiteTiger]

I believe it is talked about later too. The daughter of some lord that Ned killed or something. Could be lies though.

From what I can recall (it's been at least a few years since I've read the first couple) the "noble mother" was Jon himself asking Ned. Jon was remembering that he'd heard a tale where after Ned had killed one of the Kingsguard (The Eveningstar? Morningstar?) he went to the knight's tower to inform his next of kin, and then 'consoled' the knight's sister. Jon asked Ned about that one, and was rebuffed pretty hard by Ned.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

But Jon and ned haven't talked because Ned is dead. I'm talking Later than book 1.

[WhiteTiger]

There's my mistake. From the FoI Wiki, it was Cat recounting the story in her head, and then asking Ned about it:

"Another theory claims Jon's mother was Ashara Dayne (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ashara_Dayne), his father being likely Eddard Stark or his older brother Brandon Stark (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Brandon_Stark). Lady Dayne was said to be with both of them during the Tourney at Harrenhal (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tourney_at_Harrenhal). According to Ser Barristan Selmy (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Barristan_Selmy), one of the Starks bedded her at the tournament and got her with child. It was also known by many that she was pregnant before she killed herself by jumping from the tower of Starfall (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Starfall), also called the Palestone Sword, a tower on Starfall's cliff by the sea. Though Ser Barristan believes the ####### child of Lady Dayne was a stillborn girl, many still believe Ashara Dayne to be the mother of Jon Snow. Among those who believe so are Queen Cersei Lannister (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Cersei_Lannister) and Lady Catelyn Stark (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Catelyn_Stark). Eddard refuses to answer Catelyn when she asks if Ashara Dayne was Jon's mother."


Told you my memory was a bit fuzzy. ;)

[Bobblehead]

But the timeline doesn't fit - the tourney at Harrenhal is at least year before Robert's uprising so that would make Jon Snow at least a year older than Rob Stark, which he isn't.

Although Ashara's body was never recovered, so who can say for sure she is really dead.


There are just too many holes right now for anything to be more than a guess.

[Ashartus]

My guess is that Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, and that he made up the story about his birth to protect him. If Jon is Rhaegar's son he'd be a Targaryen and Robert et al. would have had him killed, but as Lyanna's son Ned would have protected him. But it's pure speculation until/if we find out in a later book.

[Tinordi]

If he's a Dayne then maybe that will translate to Darkstar being a warg as well.

[Ped]

Just because this person said A or that person said B in regards to Jon's parents doesn't make any of it true - the only thing we know is that one of his parents is a Stark (because of his stated looks)

When Arya ran into Lord Beric she met up with Edric Dayne, who was Jon's "milk brother" (he was nursed by Jon's mother). But even that doesn't mean that the woman mentioned was Jon's real mother.

Suppose Jon's "mother" (as Edric Dayne) knew her had a baby who died or was stillborn and Jon was substituted to protect him.

The thing I keep coming back to is that Ned, being a man of honour, probably wouldn't have taken Jon home and let him live with catelyn - remember Catelyn said that was very rare, and Ned's honour probably would have been satisfied if he provided for Jon's well-being. The only thing that would trump that, imo, is his promise to Lyanna, whatever that promise may have been.

[Hanni]

Stupid Amazon trolling me by sending me an email with the subject "George R.R. Martin's New Book" when it's just a Game of Thrones graphic novel.

[Coys1882]

Stupid Amazon trolling me by sending me an email with the subject "George R.R. Martin's New Book" when it's just a Game of Thrones graphic novel.

I added them to my pull list at my comic store and it's not too bad to be honest. Defo not for kids though - not toned down at all.

[Hanni]

I added them to my pull list at my comic store and it's not too bad to be honest. Defo not for kids though - not toned down at all.

I have no doubt that the Graphic Novel is very good, I just got really excited when I read the subject of the email sitting in my inbox only to be bitterly disappointed that it wasn't something about the 6th book. Which in hindsight was silly to expect so soon anyway.

[Bobblehead]

In case anyone missed it, Martin was on George Strombolopoulos' (olopolopolus') show recently.

No obvious spoilers, but they do sort of circle some things that happen throughout the books so I figured perhaps here would be safer than the other thread.

http://www.cbc.ca/strombo/videos.html?id=2209994735

[Boblobla]

Does he say when we can expect the next book? 2016? 2017?

[Bigtime]

In case anyone missed it, Martin was on George Strombolopoulos' (olopolopolus') show recently.

No obvious spoilers, but they do sort of circle some things that happen throughout the books so I figured perhaps here would be safer than the other thread.

http://www.cbc.ca/strombo/videos.html?id=2209994735

He was also on Q. No spoilers in that interview, but he did say he thinks the next two books won't take him as long as 4 and 5 did. So a little hope.

[Bobblehead]

One thing about seeing the series is things that aren't quite as I imagined them.

For example, the pronunciation of Cersei. In my mind I always said it as Ker-see. It kind of creates a bit of dissonance when I hear it with a soft C.

And it was a pretty damn dick move Green Lantern pulled on MMF. Such a petty thing to do.

[Coys1882]

And it was a pretty damn dick move Green Lantern pulled on MMF. Such a petty thing to do.

What did he do exactly? RW spoiler?

[Hanni]

Something about THE book 3 spoiler, all the books kind of run together in my head but I'm thinking it was about the red wedding, that was book 3 wasn't it?

[Bigtime]

One thing about seeing the series is things that aren't quite as I imagined them.

For example, the pronunciation of Cersei. In my mind I always said it as Ker-see. It kind of creates a bit of dissonance when I hear it with a soft C.

And it was a pretty damn dick move Green Lantern pulled on MMF. Such a petty thing to do.

Reading the novels I always pronounced it with the soft C. However Varys in the show is completely different than the character I had visualized in my head.

What did he do exactly? RW spoiler?

I believe that is the one. Agree it was a dick move, that is arguably the biggest WTF moment in the series so far. I would have hated to have had it spoiled before reading it.

[Bobblehead]

What did he do exactly? RW spoiler?

I believe so, since Photon said "THE book 3 spoiler".

I even hate the hints some people post. As soon as you post that something is going to happen, even if you don't specify, it means people aren't going to be quite as shocked.

I just wish people who have read the books would limit discussion in the thread to the actual episode and not even touch the speculation. I'd kind of like to see what sort of ideas people come up with so I can make fun of them in here.

[Bigtime]

I can't wait to see all the people excited about the dragons be let down this season, unless they bump up some book 3 stuff (slave master face melting) to make Dany's storyline more exciting than desert wandering.

[Bobblehead]

I can't wait to see all the people excited about the dragons be let down this season, unless they bump up some book 3 stuff (slave master face melting) to make Dany's storyline more exciting than desert wandering.

Scenes in House of the Undying should be pretty trippy.

[Bigtime]

Scenes in House of the Undying should be pretty trippy.

Was that book 2? I was thinking it was in 3, I really need to re-read when book 6 gets close to becoming reality.

[Boblobla]

I am just looking forward the the attire once she reaches the city :)

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Was that book 2? I was thinking it was in 3, I really need to re-read when book 6 gets close to becoming reality.

Yes, the Undying part is in book 2.

Dany's story in book 2 is pretty boring up until the end. Actually like I said in the other thread, the increments are so small and interwoven it often feels like nothing happened over a whole book and then you get to the end and realize how far things have gone since the previous book.

In book 2 all Dany does is wander the desert, find a lost city, goes to Quarth. meets Xaro and Pyat Pree and then burn down the undying. She also meets Ser Barristan the Bold for the first time right at the end IIRC.

Tyrion/Cersei/Stannis are really the main stories in book 2. Most of the story revolves around Kings Landing and the impending battle with Stannis. There is also quite a bit of set up for the power stuggle in Kings Landing going forward. I'd maybe throw Theon into that lot as his and Bran's storyline have some action.

The Arya/Jon/Dany storylines are pretty much all set up for stuff that is yet to come. The Cat and Brienne story has a few important parts, like the scenes with Renly, but mostly is all just set up for the end of book 2 story with Cat/Brienne/Jaime, which continues in the books 3-5.

[Bigtime]

Don't forget the introduction of Strong Belwas, he rules (and likes eating candied locusts)!

[Bobblehead]

I haven't been following much of the casting news, who did they get for Strong Belwas?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Just as a note to my above post, it appears that Ser Barristan isn't revealed until book 3. I have about 100 pages left in book 2 so I thought it was gonna happen right away.

[Bigtime]

I haven't been following much of the casting news, who did they get for Strong Belwas?

Nothing confirmed, but the rumour is his character isn't going to make the cut for the tv series. :(

[Boblobla]

Nothing confirmed, but the rumour is his character isn't going to make the cut for the tv series. :(

Really? WTF, he is a minor character with a fairly major role in a few points. Mainly the slaying of the champion and getting poisoned.

[Bobblehead]

Really? WTF, he is a minor character with a fairly major role in a few points. Mainly the slaying of the champion and getting poisoned.


While I agree, I can see how they could work around it. They have taken other liberties while still staying true to the over-arching story.

And I did notice Jaime with a speech about how he is being dragged around and not left in a castle. Is this a hint that for the series aren't going to be visiting Riverrun anytime soon?

[Tinordi]

Really? WTF, he is a minor character with a fairly major role in a few points. Mainly the slaying of the champion and getting poisoned.
They can poison any character or red shirted ensign to achieve the plot point.

And killing the Champion does not have any plot significance besides only showing how much of a badass Belwas is.

Strong Belwas is pretty trivial to the plot.

[Bigtime]

While I agree, I can see how they could work around it. They have taken other liberties while still staying true to the over-arching story.

And I did notice Jaime with a speech about how he is being dragged around and not left in a castle. Is this a hint that for the series aren't going to be visiting Riverrun anytime soon?

The word is season 3 for Riverrun to make its debut.

[Tinordi]

Yes, the Undying part is in book 2.

Dany's story in book 2 is pretty boring up until the end. Actually like I said in the other thread, the increments are so small and interwoven it often feels like nothing happened over a whole book and then you get to the end and realize how far things have gone since the previous book.

In book 2 all Dany does is wander the desert, find a lost city, goes to Quarth. meets Xaro and Pyat Pree and then burn down the undying. She also meets Ser Barristan the Bold for the first time right at the end IIRC.

Tyrion/Cersei/Stannis are really the main stories in book 2. Most of the story revolves around Kings Landing and the impending battle with Stannis. There is also quite a bit of set up for the power stuggle in Kings Landing going forward. I'd maybe throw Theon into that lot as his and Bran's storyline have some action.

The Arya/Jon/Dany storylines are pretty much all set up for stuff that is yet to come. The Cat and Brienne story has a few important parts, like the scenes with Renly, but mostly is all just set up for the end of book 2 story with Cat/Brienne/Jaime, which continues in the books 3-5.
Dany's story up until the end of Book 5 is pretty boring. It's essential but boring. Mostly a function of bad writing.

[Bobblehead]

Dany's story up until the end of Book 5 is pretty boring. It's essential but boring. Mostly a function of bad writing.

I've read where a lot of people really enjoy Dany's story through that section. Just because it wasn't as interesting to you doesn't mean it was bad writing.

It seems that everyone seems to have a few favourite characters and really enjoy those storylines while the other storylines drag. But it also seems there is no firm consensus on the favourite characters.

Personally I'm not a huge fan of Dany's storyline but I don't think it is bad, I just prefer the other characters.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

I've read where a lot of people really enjoy Dany's story through that section. Just because it wasn't as interesting to you doesn't mean it was bad writing.

It seems that everyone seems to have a few favourite characters and really enjoy those storylines while the other storylines drag. But it also seems there is no firm consensus on the favourite characters.

Personally I'm not a huge fan of Dany's storyline but I don't think it is bad, I just prefer the other characters.

The major issue with her storyline is that the moment at the end of DWD is what we all expected to happen by book 2 or 3 or 4.

In the mean time Martin was forced (?) to fill in the time while #### happened in Westeros. And he couldn't just not mention Dany for four books while he filled in the gaps on the other side of the world.

Sort of like Bran and Arya. I know they will probably be key cogs in the last 2 books but a lot of times I think he gives them POV chapters just out of necessity. How weird would it be to not hear from either of them for 500 pages at a time?

[Tinordi]

The growth of Dany from girl to queen is essential to the story and it shouldn't be glossed over or rushed through. I don't have a problem with the pace of the story. GRRM just isn't a talented enough writer to make that story compelling. It's more of a personal journey of a girl turning to woman and then to ruler. Ultimately it could be very captivating. He just doesn't do it well.

[Boblobla]

I enjoyed the Dany storylines of her struggles to become the queen of her people and the problems with the harpys.

The storyline I didn't understand as a POV character was the dornishmen one. I don't understand why we had to read his chapters when he ended up with his face melted anyway.

[Bobblehead]

The growth of Dany from girl to queen is essential to the story and it shouldn't be glossed over or rushed through. I don't have a problem with the pace of the story. GRRM just isn't a talented enough writer to make that story compelling. It's more of a personal journey of a girl turning to woman and then to ruler. Ultimately it could be very captivating. He just doesn't do it well.

While I tend to be sympathetic to that opinion, I know from reading other forums of other readers who found it highly captivating as it is.*shrug*

In reading some of the reviews for last night's episode, one of them mentioned something that I really agree with. The scene where Littlefinger and Cersei trade barbs about power. It didn't happen in the book and I would think Littlefinger would be much more veiled than to threaten Cersei like that. I'm not exactly sure why that scene was added.

[Bobblehead]

The storyline I didn't understand as a POV character was the dornishmen one. I don't understand why we had to read his chapters when he ended up with his face melted anyway. I think it was just so you could get a better idea of the politics inside the Free Companies. you get a view inside the Brave Companions and the Golden Company, but this is the only way to see inside what the rest of the companies are like.

And you get an idea how long some of these plans have been formulating; that even with King Robert on the throne there have always been numerous undercurrents working against him.

At least those are my guesses.

[Bigtime]

I enjoyed the Dany storylines of her struggles to become the queen of her people and the problems with the harpys.

The storyline I didn't understand as a POV character was the dornishmen one. I don't understand why we had to read his chapters when he ended up with his face melted anyway.

I think it was just so you could get a better idea of the politics inside the Free Companies. you get a view inside the Brave Companions and the Golden Company, but this is the only way to see inside what the rest of the companies are like.

And you get an idea how long some of these plans have been formulating; that even with King Robert on the throne there have always been numerous undercurrents working against him.

At least those are my guesses.

That's a solid answer, I was going to add you also get the poor bugger thinking "Oh, I'm on fire.". :D

The Dornish are the house I am really interested to watch play their cards, that Prince is playing the game strong.

[Hanni]

The storyline I didn't understand as a POV character was the dornishmen one. I don't understand why we had to read his chapters when he ended up with his face melted anyway.

This was my feeling about most of book 4, along with most of what happened with Brienne.

[Bigtime]

This was my feeling about most of book 4, along with most of what happened with Brienne.

I think the main purpose of POV Brienne in book 4 was to show the effects of the war in Westeros, all our other viewpoints have been "big picture" before we got our boots on the ground with her. That and we find strong evidence that Sandor Clegane is alive and living on that monastery island.

I do get the frustration with her POV, as she is going off on a mission that we know is hopeless (finding Sansa). So it is hard to really get into her story if you focus on only that.

[photon]

The storyline I didn't understand as a POV character was the dornishmen one. I don't understand why we had to read his chapters when he ended up with his face melted anyway.

I think that describes the whole series. He spends FAR too much time creating intricate plots and foreshadowing and investment for characters that end up dead, while the actual overreaching plot hasn't moved hardly at all.

Unless the end of the series is everyone dies and the long winter consumes the 7 kingdoms, then I'm ok with it.

[Hanni]

I think that describes the whole series. He spends FAR too much time creating intricate plots and foreshadowing and investment for characters that end up dead, while the actual overreaching plot hasn't moved hardly at all.

Not only that but in Brienne and the Dornish's case I simply don't care about the characters. You know from the outset that as characters they are minor yet they are getting chapter after chapter devoted to them.

[photon]

I find it difficult to care about any character now, you can only spend books full of exposition only to cut that thread so many times before I don't feel the need to care about any of them.

The only thing I care about anymore is the overall plot, and for that I could have basically ignored all but the first and most recent books.

[Tinordi]

Yup, GRRM's editor could have been much much much more ruthless. The fact that by the end of book 5 he's still expanding the universe is just bewildering and frustrating for the reader.

[Bobblehead]

I'm not sure he is expanding the universe as much as he is setting his final chess pieces in place.

I mean we now have Arya ready to assume her role as a super assassin.
Bran has found and is well on the way to learning to control his own set of powers.
Dany has a dragon that can carry her that she is learning how to handle.
The Golden Company is on Westeros.

Yeah, there seems to be a lot of expansion but if you look at it there appear to be many pieces now just about in position to push for a final gambit.

Martin has said his views about war is that there is a lot of horror and the heroes don't escape unscathed if they escape at all. And that it is rarely as straightforward as heroes are always good and enemies always black.

So while there does seem to be a lot of superfluous narrative, I get the feeling that it is intentional and reflects Martin's belief about what war is really like (98% boredom, 2% horror) and about (the petty squabbling of elite paid with the blood of real people).

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

The storyline I didn't understand as a POV character was the dornishmen one. I don't understand why we had to read his chapters when he ended up with his face melted anyway.

Probably because Martin wanted to show people he could still kill POV characters without bringing them back to life somehow. Unfortunately, that meant we had to waste our time reading it.

[Tinordi]

But that's a pretty brief list of what's going in the world at this point, lets review the major unresolved plot points:

Bran, coldhands, Others, Benjen
War in the North
Jon and Melisandre
Stannis and Dreadfort
Theon, Asha
Griff, Targaryen, gold company
Catelyn, Jamie, Brienne
Sansa, Petr
Happenings in Dorne
Victarion, Euron
Blackfish
Arya
Cannibal Island, Davos, White Harbour
Cersei, Zombie Mountain, Varys
Tyrion
Dany and the Dothraki/free cities
Religious army

Just so many spinning plates. I concede though that I'm criticizing him to writting a very complex story which is also satisfying to be a part of. However, it will be a major achievement to tie these up in a satisfactory way. And I'm worried that there's just way too much going on for only two more books.

I had the same feeling going into the Revenge of the Sith movie. Basically the previous two movies didn't advance the story at all and we were left with the third movie to tick off all of the major story points making it a convoluted mess.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

I wouldn't be surprised to see Martin take care of many of those storylines in the same stroke.

I think the story will get easier in the last 2 books because storylines will finally begin to converge. Up until now, the storylines have tended to grow further apart with no clear indication of when they'll converge. I think we'll soon see a single chapter, for example Arya, that instead of being totally just about Arya, instead will have ties to one or many other storylines.

[photon]

Anyone who's read Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time will know what trying to resolve the myriad of plotlines to try and bring a series to something resembling a coherent end in two books is like.

And I'd argue Martin's series has more and more diverse things going on.

[Bigtime]

But that's a pretty brief list of what's going in the world at this point, lets review the major unresolved plot points:

Bran, coldhands, Others, Benjen
War in the North
Jon and Melisandre
Stannis and Dreadfort
Theon, Asha
Griff, Targaryen, gold company
Catelyn, Jamie, Brienne
Sansa, Petr
Happenings in Dorne
Victarion, Euron
Blackfish
Arya
Cannibal Island, Davos, White Harbour
Cersei, Zombie Mountain, Varys
Tyrion
Dany and the Dothraki/free cities
Religious army

There is also Sam Tarly and his adventures down at the Citadel (with the whole possible plot of the Maesters being up to their own plan).

[Bobblehead]

I see a lot of those as all part of a big house of cards. As soon as a few are pulled a bunch more are going to collapse.

I know what you mean, I hope it is too convenient, but I just think some of those are going to find themselves coming together and 2 or 3 at a time are going to wrap up.

Although I wonder if there will be a few that never get resolved. It would seem to be typical Martin that he wouldn't want everything all settled since rarely are massive issue resolved without some sort of lingering issues. But on the other hand, at this point I could see him wanting to wrap it up enough that the rest of his life isn't spent being pestered for a final resolution.

[Bobblehead]

This episode really deviated from the books.

[J epworth]

This episode really deviated from the books.

Yup, I agree with adding the Melisandre part because it's implied in the book that they are definitely boning anyways, and I guess this will explain the "shadow" that she births later on.

The Craster part I don't really understand, keeping with the books storyline would actually move the plot along faster, I just want them to get to the frostfangs. Now we are going to have another episode with Jon and Craster clashing, when none of this happened in the book.

[Tinordi]

Craster's horribly miscast in the series. Why would they totally ignore the description of him in the books? Would make for a much better character.

[#22]

^^^

Agree 100%. Not even close

[Rubicant]

Just a request:

Could we keep this thread just about the books as intended? I have read them all and come in here to read about different theories/viewpoints as well as news about the upcoming books.

I also PVR the TV series and watch them later, and even though I do know the plot I would rather not have the episodes 'spoiled'.

[Bigtime]

I think two threads for ASOIF serves well enough, just treat this thread as the "anything goes spoilers ahoy" thread for both the books and TV series. Having a third thread just starts to get confusing.

[Rubicant]

I think two threads for ASOIF serves well enough, just treat this thread as the "anything goes spoilers ahoy" thread for both the books and TV series. Having a third thread just starts to get confusing.

I thought this thread was for the books and the other thread was for the TV series - which is why I'm avoiding that one.

[GP_Matt]

This thread is for people who have read the books to discuss the show and how it relates to the books.

[Bobblehead]

I sort of thought of this thread as a place to discuss anything and everything so we don't spoil the story for folks who haven't read the books. So generally a place to talk about anything that should have been in spoiler tags in the other thread

I don't like the Melisandre/Stannis change. I've always pictured Stannis as doing what is "right" regardless of the consequences. Davos saved Stannig during the siege and was made a knight yet Stannis still chopped off the ends of his finger; Stannis is fighting to be king because he knows he is the rightful heir even though he has little to no support. Yet here is having an affair? It just seems so out of character and seems to violate the character I know from the books.

[Bigtime]

Hmm, I'm thinking back to the books and it is never said that Stannis and Melisandre were getting it on, but I could have sworn it was implied a few times. Am I wrong?

I guess even a guy that does the right thing has to have his one flaw? Perhaps that's what the HBO folks were thinking?

[Bobblehead]

Hmm, I'm thinking back to the books and it is never said that Stannis and Melisandre were getting it on, but I could have sworn it was implied a few times. Am I wrong?

I guess even a guy that does the right thing has to have his one flaw? Perhaps that's what the HBO folks were thinking?

May well be, but I missed it.

I re-read the series after season 1 and even though I was looking for hints about Renly and Loras I didn't really see anything that would point to that. Things that in hindsight you could make fit, but nothing that made me wonder why I didn't see it the first time.
So I guess I can be pretty oblivious to some of Martin's hints, but it just didn't seem to fit with the character of Stannis I thought I knew.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Hmm, I'm thinking back to the books and it is never said that Stannis and Melisandre were getting it on, but I could have sworn it was implied a few times. Am I wrong?

I guess even a guy that does the right thing has to have his one flaw? Perhaps that's what the HBO folks were thinking?


I just finished book 2 and have moved onto book 3.

It is definitely hinted at, moreso as a result of rumours from Stannis' supporters.

At the start of the 3rd book he's said to have not left his chambers and never eats. It's just him and Melisandre together 24/7.

I agree with everything Bobblehead said, but I think Stannis screwing Melisandre is within the acceptable story because he's overcome by her. That and it was his wife's idea. Maybe she's cool with it.

[Ped]

May well be, but I missed it.

I re-read the series after season 1 and even though I was looking for hints about Renly and Loras I didn't really see anything that would point to that. Things that in hindsight you could make fit, but nothing that made me wonder why I didn't see it the first time.
So I guess I can be pretty oblivious to some of Martin's hints, but it just didn't seem to fit with the character of Stannis I thought I knew.

When Melisandra births her shadow Davos knows who the shadow is - the book never comes out and says, but it is strongly implied it is Stannis since that is who Davos knows best.

Also when Melisandra visits Davos in the dungeons after he is rescued, she says the king's fires are too low to draw from him so she wants to use Davos instead.

[Bobblehead]

When Melisandra births her shadow Davos knows who the shadow is - the book never comes out and says, but it is strongly implied it is Stannis since that is who Davos knows best.

Also when Melisandra visits Davos in the dungeons after he is rescued, she says the king's fires are too low to draw from him so she wants to use Davos instead.

I just didn't associate that as being carnal draw.

I'm way too innocent to pick up on those. Well, at least when I don't picture that as part of the character's character I don't pick up on it.

[IronDave]

So what actually happened to Lyanna? How did she die? I believe Rhegar took her and then all the stories deviate from each other it seems.

[Ped]

So what actually happened to Lyanna? How did she die? I believe Rhegar took her and then all the stories deviate from each other it seems.

There's no guarantee that Rhaegar "took" her. All that is known is that she ended up with Rhaegar and then died. Whether or not she was taken or went willingly, or died in childbirth (Jon appears to be the prevailing theory, but who knows) or of some other illness, or even of suicide, has not been made clear yet.

[Rubicant]

Well I guess I misinterpreted this thread's purpose :)

I guess I shall return once I have caught up on the TV series from this season.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Well I guess I misinterpreted this thread's purpose :)

I guess I shall return once I have caught up on the TV series from this season.


Book talk is allowed but you should expect some book vs tv show talk that contains spoilers that would ruin the TV only thread for the TV only people.

[IronDave]

There's no guarantee that Rhaegar "took" her. All that is known is that she ended up with Rhaegar and then died. Whether or not she was taken or went willingly, or died in childbirth (Jon appears to be the prevailing theory, but who knows) or of some other illness, or even of suicide, has not been made clear yet.

I do remember reading that there was a good chance that Jon is fact Lyanna's son and that Ned was protecting him and calling him his son by her wishes. Was it also implied that he was Rhaegar's son then and therefore he is a hybrid Stark-Targaryan? If so that would be a great storyline to integrate into the rise of the Targaryans in book 6-7.

[WhiteTiger]

I dunno. Given Stannis' predilection for doing the 'honorable' thing, and his sheer adherence to that no matter what, I'd say that he's not likely having an affair with Melisandre. In the books, given Melisandre's draw to the blood of kings, I'd say it's more likely that Stannis gives her any blood of his she wants to do whatever with.

Also, in the books, isn't one of the 'standing jokes' among his men just how much Stannis doesn't like sex? He was said to have 'done his duty by his wife once", and once he had a daughter, he hasn't since?

Alsoalso...does the shooting to 'fame' of AGOT make anyone else who's been reading along the entire time feel kind of like a hipster?

"How do you know so much about the storyline?"
"Well, I have read all the books at least 3-4 times."
"Books? But the show's only been out for a single season!"
"Yeah..."

[Ashartus]

Alsoalso...does the shooting to 'fame' of AGOT make anyone else who's been reading along the entire time feel kind of like a hipster?

"How do you know so much about the storyline?"
"Well, I have read all the books at least 3-4 times."
"Books? But the show's only been out for a single season!"
"Yeah..."

Kind of - though in my case it's more that my excuse for not remembering details is that it was 15 years ago that I read the book (my "to read" list is too long and free time too limited to re-read something 3 or 4 times).

[Bigtime]

I can't pull the hispter card here, as I only heard about the series when season one came out. So I decided to read the books first.

[Ped]

[QUOTE=WhiteTiger;3649611]I dunno. Given Stannis' predilection for doing the 'honorable' thing, and his sheer adherence to that no matter what, I'd say that he's not likely having an affair with Melisandre. In the books, given Melisandre's draw to the blood of kings, I'd say it's more likely that Stannis gives her any blood of his she wants to do whatever with.

Also, in the books, isn't one of the 'standing jokes' among his men just how much Stannis doesn't like sex? He was said to have 'done his duty by his wife once", and once he had a daughter, he hasn't since?
QUOTE]
Yeah, but it also notes that Melisandre is not his wife, referring to the fact that Melisandre is much more beautiful than his skinny wife with the mustache.

[Tinordi]

It's heavily implied in the book that Stannis are Melisandre are having an affair.

[Ped]

I do remember reading that there was a good chance that Jon is fact Lyanna's son and that Ned was protecting him and calling him his son by her wishes. Was it also implied that he was Rhaegar's son then and therefore he is a hybrid Stark-Targaryan? If so that would be a great storyline to integrate into the rise of the Targaryans in book 6-7.

Not really implied as much as left to one's imagination thus far...

Dondarrion's squire did tell Arya that he knew Jon's birth mother - but whether the woman in question really was Jon's birth mother or a switch was done between a child of Lyanna/? and a random woman hasn't been revealed. But there is obviously a big secret with Jon's parentage. And Jon is definitely part Stark. And Lyanna made Ned promise her something as she lay dying. Seems to fit that the promise was not to tell of Jon's real father since all the other Targaryens were being ruthlessly slaughtered.

[Oling_Roachinen]

I do remember reading that there was a good chance that Jon is fact Lyanna's son and that Ned was protecting him and calling him his son by her wishes. Was it also implied that he was Rhaegar's son then and therefore he is a hybrid Stark-Targaryan? If so that would be a great storyline to integrate into the rise of the Targaryans in book 6-7.

It was not so much implied as hinted at that Jon could be Rhaegar's son. First, despite what were originally led to believe, Rhaegar most likely fell in love with Lyanna and she him so it was not so much an abduction as it was an elopement of sorts. Then you got the dreams and #### you can interpret but I think the biggest sign is you got 3 of the 7 King's guards, who's sole purpose is to protect the King and his family, who were left to protect/guard Lyanna including Arthur Dayne during a war where real Targs were being slaughtered.

In my opinion it was pretty much solid that Jon was going to be Rhaegar's son but now it will end up being decades between the first Jon is Rhaegar son theory to the actual reveal which was probably meant to be pretty shocking will end up pretty "meh knew it" so I could see him changing that up.

As for Stannis and Melisandre, I thought it was more than just implied there later in the book (or next book). I didn't picture Stannis giving into temptation and lust as much as a doing it for duty though.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Re: Stannis and Melisandre

Davis chapter, book 3. About 350 pages in.

When talking about the shadow that she birthed at Storms End, "shadows only live when given birth by light, and the king's fires burn so low I dare not draw off anymore to make another son. It might well kill him."

Then:

"with another man, though a man whose flames still burn hot and high if you truly wish to serve your king's cause, come to my chamber one might. I could give you pleasure, such as you have never known, and with your life-fire I could make..."


Stannis and Melisandre definitely had an affair. Unless she's lying or conceived the shadow some other way.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

I didn't want to spoil the other thread but there was more stuff I wanted to mention.

I can see why they'd make Margaery more involved now, given her association to future events.

Shae being Sansa's chambermaid sets up for some interesting akwardness when Tyrion and Sansa tie the knot.

I just read in book 3 a quote from one of Jon's wildling friends that I found interesting. Mentioned that they dug up so many graves looking for the Horn of Whatever-It's-Called and said something like "and we loosed all them shadows". Shadows wasn't the word used though. Almost made me think like they thought they were responsible for the wights/others and that they'd released them when they were searching for the horn.

[Matata]

My prediction regarding Syrio

Syrio can change is face and has not left Arya's side. He was the nice guy in the cage from last nights episode and is currently training her in Braavos. All 3 of these characters have guided her along the same path.

[GP_Matt]

My prediction regarding Syrio

Syrio can change is face and has not left Arya's side. He was the nice guy in the cage from last nights episode and is currently training her in Braavos. All 3 of these characters have guided her along the same path.
I hadn't considered it before, but I like the idea. I can't remember if they showed him die in the series?

I wonder if Martin has had to reveal any of his future plans to the screen writers so that they don't close a story line that he purposely left open? If that is the case, they may be able to finish the series even if GRRM doesn't.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

My prediction regarding Syrio

Syrio can change is face and has not left Arya's side. He was the nice guy in the cage from last nights episode and is currently training her in Braavos. All 3 of these characters have guided her along the same path.

I hadn't considered it before, but I like the idea. I can't remember if they showed him die in the series?

I wonder if Martin has had to reveal any of his future plans to the screen writers so that they don't close a story line that he purposely left open? If that is the case, they may be able to finish the series even if GRRM doesn't.

We never saw Syrio die in the show or in the novel. Although it was strongly hinted at with sounds and the setting.

As far as the books are concerned, Jaqne H'agar (sp?) is not Syrio. In the TV show, I guess it could be possible but it doesn't make a lot of sense.

[d_phaneuf]

I think there has been so much stuff going around about Syrio still being alive that even if it was planned it may get changed

[Bigtime]

In the books (and I guess the TV series) Syrio has become a sort of fan favorite, so I'm not surprised to see theories about him still being alive are out there. I guess HBO *could* make it so Syrio is in fact Jaqne, it may simplify things for the TV viewers and not really affect the Jaqne plot in any way. I still think it would be best to leave it as in the novels, you can choose to believe Syrio lived or died as you wish.

I always thought Syrio was a great way to introduce us to Braavos, their people, and some customs (like how they fight).

[Bobblehead]

I just read in book 3 a quote from one of Jon's wildling friends that I found interesting. Mentioned that they dug up so many graves looking for the Horn of Whatever-It's-Called and said something like "and we loosed all them shadows". Shadows wasn't the word used though. Almost made me think like they thought they were responsible for the wights/others and that they'd released them when they were searching for the horn.
Now this is something that I thought was obvious - that the search for the horn had released the white walkers. It is interesting what different people pick up from books.


Just as an aside, I know some books that I enjoy; I end up reading so quickly that I miss some stuff and upon a re-read I is almost like another book.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Now this is something that I thought was obvious - that the search for the horn had released the white walkers. It is interesting what different people pick up from books.


Just as an aside, I know some books that I enjoy; I end up reading so quickly that I miss some stuff and upon a re-read I is almost like another book.

I agree so much with the aside part. These books are so deep, especially with characters, that things are a lot clearer the second time around. I always used to confuse the two rebel groups. Lord Baric's Brotherhood without banners and the Bluddy Mummers/Brave Companions. It was especially bad when Book 3 is switching between Arya being caught by Lord Baric's friends (Harwin) and when Brienne and Jaime were captured by the Mummers. The first time around I kept on thinking, how has Jaime not seen Arya by now?, and why do they seem so much nicer in Arya's chapters? Yeah, it's actually 2 different groups of outlaws.

Oh, except the story that Meera tells bran about the Tourney at Harrenhal in the False Springs in Bran II in book 3. That would be the tourney that Rhaegar won and gave Lyanna the rose and when Jaime was named to the Kingsguard. It tells the story of Howland Reed (at least we are led to believe it is him) who was made fun of by some squires before the tourney, kicked their master's asses in the joust and then disappeared much to Aery's dismay. The Starks are mentioned but only through nicknames (young wolf, shy wolf etc). I had check out the SOIAF wiki for that one.

Another thing I noticed was the difference between wights and true Others. In fact I'm certain that I mentioned it last time I read book 3 in the other GoT thread but had forgotten.

Also very creepy was at the end of book 2 when Dany visits the House of the Undying, one of the visions she has is of a wolf head on a man's body. Crazy foreshadowing that I never picked up on the first time. Did I mentione that too already?

As for how the Others were released, I guess it could be common knowledge. I seem to have missed many obvious things. When I first read the books I had no idea Renly was gay, despite all the hints.

[J epworth]

I agree so much with the aside part. These books are so deep, especially with characters, that things are a lot clearer the second time around. I always used to confuse the two rebel groups. Lord Baric's Brotherhood without banners and the Bluddy Mummers/Brave Companions. It was especially bad when Book 3 is switching between Arya being caught by Lord Baric's friends (Harwin) and when Brienne and Jaime were captured by the Mummers. The first time around I kept on thinking, how has Jaime not seen Arya by now?, and why do they seem so much nicer in Arya's chapters? Yeah, it's actually 2 different groups of outlaws.

Oh, except the story that Meera tells bran about the Tourney at Harrenhal in the False Springs in Bran II in book 3. That would be the tourney that Rhaegar won and gave Lyanna the rose and when Jaime was named to the Kingsguard. It tells the story of Howland Reed (at least we are led to believe it is him) who was made fun of by some squires before the tourney, kicked their master's asses in the joust and then disappeared much to Aery's dismay. The Starks are mentioned but only through nicknames (young wolf, shy wolf etc). I had check out the SOIAF wiki for that one.

Another thing I noticed was the difference between wights and true Others. In fact I'm certain that I mentioned it last time I read book 3 in the other GoT thread but had forgotten.

Also very creepy was at the end of book 2 when Dany visits the House of the Undying, one of the visions she has is of a wolf head on a man's body. Crazy foreshadowing that I never picked up on the first time. Did I mentione that too already?

As for how the Others were released, I guess it could be common knowledge. I seem to have missed many obvious things. When I first read the books I had no idea Renly was gay, despite all the hints.

The House of the Undying episode is going to be sooo good if they do it well, which I have complete confidence they will.

The one thing I still don't understand is how they are going to move Bran's storyline along without introducing Meera and Jojen. They are such critical characters for Bran, yet they've been written out in the show.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

The House of the Undying episode is going to be sooo good if they do it well, which I have complete confidence they will.

The one thing I still don't understand is how they are going to move Bran's storyline along without introducing Meera and Jojen. They are such critical characters for Bran, yet they've been written out in the show.

And I noticed bran only has something like 6 chapters in book 3. Major characters have 10-13 each. We'll see him for 10 mins in 3 episodes.

[WhiteTiger]

And I noticed bran only has something like 6 chapters in book 3. Major characters have 10-13 each. We'll see him for 10 mins in 3 episodes.

Which is pretty good. If there's one character I wish who WOULD get the GRRM special treatment, it's him. Never did like the character or his arc.

[Bigtime]

Which is pretty good. If there's one character I wish who WOULD get the GRRM special treatment, it's him. Never did like the character or his arc.

I'll admit I'm not a big fan of the Bran stuff (except for Hodor, he rules. Hodor hodor hodor), but I think we'll see some big payoff with him in the final two books.

[Chump]

The House of the Undying episode is going to be sooo good if they do it well, which I have complete confidence they will.

The one thing I still don't understand is how they are going to move Bran's storyline along without introducing Meera and Jojen. They are such critical characters for Bran, yet they've been written out in the show.

They haven't been casted for season 2 but I suspect they will show up next season. The show writers have said that some characters have just been delayed and not cut outright.

[Bobblehead]

So the show last night combined the 2 "births" by Melisandre.

The first is the one that kills Renly.
The second one is the one that was depicted last night, although in the books the one that Davos saw born went into Storms End to kill the Ser Penrose and allow Stanis to seize Edric Storm.

I have no problem with that change, it moves the story along although I suppose this means Edric won't be in the show.

[Bigtime]

So the show last night combined the 2 "births" by Melisandre.

The first is the one that kills Renly.
The second one is the one that was depicted last night, although in the books the one that Davos saw born went into Storms End to kill the Ser Penrose and allow Stanis to seize Edric Storm.

I have no problem with that change, it moves the story along although I suppose this means Edric won't be in the show.

I don't have HBO so I'm not watching season two yet, so they have gone and put Renly at Storms End to combine the two shadow deaths?

[Bobblehead]

I don't have HBO so I'm not watching season two yet, so they have gone and put Renly at Storms End to combine the two shadow deaths?

Yes, I believe so. Renly and Stannis had their meeting with Cat in attendance, and as Renly rode away Stannis and Ser Davos talked about his finger bones around his neck then Stannis said he would have need of Davos' smuggling skills. Next you saw Davos rowing and then guiding Melisandre into a cave where she revealed herself as very pregnant and gave birth. It was one heck of a scene! So if I am recalling correctly, that is combining the two events.

[Tinordi]

They aren't at Storm's End though. There's no indication of where they are but it is not near a huge castle.

[photon]

They mention they're in the Stormlands when Stannis and Renly meet.

[Tinordi]

I also have no problem cutting out Edric Storm. What a waste of a story he is. GRRM needs a much better editor.

[Bobblehead]

I also have no problem cutting out Edric Storm. What a waste of a story he is. GRRM needs a much better editor.

Perhaps, but Edric showed the battle going on in Stannis between the need for power he would potentially get by sacrificing Edric for the king's blood and protecting him because he is an innocent. It also shows Ser Davos willing to put his own life on the line to smuggle Edric away, thereby removing the temptation.

Plus we have no idea any future role Edric may play.

I think Martin adds some characters for no reason other than to show the motivations of the main characters while he isn't in their POV.

[photon]

I think Martin adds some characters for no reason other than to show the motivations of the main characters while he isn't in their POV have something to write about after he kills everyone else.

Ftfy

[WhiteTiger]

Plus we have no idea any future role Edric may play.

I think Martin adds some characters for no reason other than to show the motivations of the main characters while he isn't in their POV.

Edric's role is revealed more in Book 5, iirc.

Martin has said a couple times that he never expected this series to be anywhere near a tv or movie, and that it's "Easy to add characters when you need someone" in a book. He wasn't expecting to have to cast them all. ;)

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Just got throught the Red Wedding on my re-read. I think what I hated most about it was that we were so close to seeing Arya finally seeing her mother and brother. I feel bad for her. She has been disconnected from the world for so long she has no idea what is happening. It was easier this time knowing what was going to happen.

Further to that, I'm glad I'm past it because it was overshadowing the first 680 pages or so. Don't get me wrong I really enjoyed reading this time because so much more was clear to me the second go around but I just want to get on with the story. Since page one I've been anticipating the RW.

And I can't wait for book 4. I really enjoyed it.

[Bobblehead]

Simply put, people in the book TV Show thread have no idea what is coming up and what isn't. Let them watch in peace.


Anyways - the stealing of the dragons was quite a change.

And the guy who plays Theon seems to be doing a great job.

And Ygritte is hot.

So they're changing Jon's love interest? And they've pretty much cut out anything related to River Run.

And I can't believe that is 6 of the 10 episodes complete.

[Arbitor]

Simply put, people in the book TV Show thread have no idea what is coming up and what isn't. Let them watch in peace.


Anyways - the stealing of the dragons was quite a change.

And the guy who plays Theon seems to be doing a great job.

And Ygritte is hot.

So they're changing Jon's love interest? And they've pretty much cut out anything related to River Run.

And I can't believe that is 6 of the 10 episodes complete.

You mean Robb. Since he didn't really have anything to do in the second book, i'm ok with the change. I heard on another forum that apparently the producers confirmed Riverrun for next season.

They've also cut out the Reeds.

[WhiteTiger]

Was never a big fan of the Riverrun stuff in Book 2 anyhow. From what I can remember (though it's getting into 're-read the series time') Riverrun itself is never so important that somewhere else couldn't be substituted for what needs to happen.

[Hanni]

Apparently my memory of the books is terrible and it might be time for a re-read but did Jon get separated from Qhorin in the books? I thought he just ended up letting Ygritte go and then ran into her again when they come across Rattleshirt.

Obviously the Reeds have been replaced by the wildling, whatever her name is, which is kind of disappointing because I found them quite interesting in the books but with the sheer number of characters is understandable.

I'm really not looking forward to the red wedding, I was so pissed when I read it and I don't imagine seeing it is going to be any less infuriating. Though I am very excited for the reaction in the other thread.

I assume the dragon theft is the warlocks and that it is setting up for a little extra drama for the whole dragons destroying the House of the Undying thing.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Apparently my memory of the books is terrible and it might be time for a re-read but did Jon get separated from Qhorin in the books? I thought he just ended up letting Ygritte go and then ran into her again when they come across Rattleshirt.


Yeah the Halfhand just said something to the effect of "do what must be done" and Jon just let her go, when he got back and told him what happened Halfhand was just like that's what needed to be done then. More or less.

[Bobblehead]

You mean Robb. Since he didn't really have anything to do in the second book, i'm ok with the change. I heard on another forum that apparently the producers confirmed Riverrun for next season.

They've also cut out the Reeds.

Sorry, yeah.

Some of the changes I wondered about, however seeing that they aren't just removing some characters but altering the events fairly markedly while still following the overall story seems to be working fairly well.

[Tinordi]

I don't like how robb is going to fall for that volantene girl instead of the other girl in the books. The reason is that then it won't be seen as a master plan of tywin.

I also don't know if I like what they're doing with tywin making him not so despicable. His death is a major payoff.

[GP_Matt]

Getting rid of the Reeds is interesting. I assume that the wildling will head north with Bran instead of keeping Rickon safe. But that could be confusing as Martin hasn't yet written much on the arc of Rickon/wildling once they split up so I wonder if the book 6/7 has her playing a role down south that she will now be unable to do.

If they do send the wildling north I wonder if the writers have confirmed with GRRM that it won't cause a major headache working it into his unwritten books? (I like to think that GRRM has provided a plot outline to the writers for the rest of the series so that they don't write themselves into a corner. That would also mean that they can publish something if GRRM takes too long and doesn't finish.)

[GP_Matt]

I think the Volantene girl will likely turn out to be the same person. It seems like she is lying about her name/birthplace.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Ok so it looks like this is the new place for us to talk about the show.

So is this thread going to combine both TV and books? Should we just start a new GOT tv show with spoilers thread?

Actually there isn't even enough book only discussion for it to warrant a new thread. Just let this one be about the TV show with some book talk.

[GP_Matt]

I thought this thread was to talk about both the books and the show.

Leave the other thread to those who haven't read the books.

[Bobblehead]

I thought this thread was to talk about both the books and the show.

Leave the other thread to those who haven't read the books.

If it wasn't we've been doing it wrong for 90% of the thread.

[GreenLantern]

I really liked the Reed angle, seemed to be someone that most people laughed at but Ned Stark really respected.

Anyone that Ned Stark respected must be a good man. I have a feeling the Reed family is yet to play a part in the story.

My theory is that, Jon Snow is in fact going to rise again as the red priest god or whatever, and he will be a major player in this story. But, he isn't the son of a Targaryen. He was a decoy ####### given to Ned Stark by his sister to draw attention away from her real son, who was given to Howlen Reed and taken to his castle. That is why they are mentioned and in the book so we have some back story, but we don't know much about Howlen or his castle yet. They will come into play at a later date.

[GP_Matt]

As to the other thread, I didn't want to say anything there, but something as simple as saying that it didn't happen in the books is still a spoiler. If you tell them that her dragons weren't taken from her in the book than you are giving away the fact that she is almost certainly going to get them back right away.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

As to the other thread, I didn't want to say anything there, but something as simple as saying that it didn't happen in the books is still a spoiler. If you tell them that her dragons weren't taken from her in the book than you are giving away the fact that she is almost certainly going to get them back right away.

Yeah fair enough, lets just move on and focus on talking the show.

This debate of what is and isn't a spoiler is pointless.

[Bobblehead]

I wonder how much the changes in the TV show are hints about what happens later in the books?

If characters are seemingly dropped from the show, he can't really just bring them in for their major plot point, can he? That would seem a lot like deus ex machina. I don't think we have seen Edmure yet - who is going to be married at the Red Wedding?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Anyways, on topic, I can see a lot of the changes becoming troublesome, a la Harry Potter, when they get to the end and realize characters that they cut out are essential and it ends up cluttering up later seasons.

[d_phaneuf]

I do like the switch with the dragons, I never understood why she went in the house of undying before and my guess is that is where the dragons were taken

[Cecil Terwilliger]

I do like the switch with the dragons, I never understood why she went in the house of undying before and my guess is that is where the dragons were taken

But the House of the Undying made sense before because it was her choice to take in that experience and hear them out.

If they are holding her dragons captive, what's she supposed to do? Just walk in and take them?

[GP_Matt]

I thought she went there to try to get answers.Will she take the same meaning from their message if she goes there on a tear to rip up the place and get her dragons back?

[Tinordi]

I like the TV version of the House of the Undying better. In the book, she just goes to the House for really no reason. It's actually a weak point in the book. The actual scene in the house is interesting but it really sticks out as extraneous in the story. Why does she go there? Who are the warlocks? And what was the point besides a bunch of foreshadowing?

[d_phaneuf]

I like the TV version of the House of the Undying better. In the book, she just goes to the House for really no reason. It's actually a weak point in the book. The actual scene in the house is interesting but it really sticks out as extraneous in the story. Why does she go there? Who are the warlocks? And what was the point besides a bunch of foreshadowing?

ya that's what I was thinking

now she has a reason to go in there, where in the book everyone was telling her not too, and it's probably going to end up the exact same way

I just think it gives her more conviction

[rayne008]

I wonder how much the changes in the TV show are hints about what happens later in the books?

If characters are seemingly dropped from the show, he can't really just bring them in for their major plot point, can he?


I've been wondering about this as well..
No Reed's, how will that play out in particular?

Also I hope the make Tyrion more of the military stratigist he was protrayed in the books. (Wildfire, chain accross the bay, etc...)

Lastly,
I have a strange thing for Osha..:whistle:

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BNDUzODQ4OTQwOV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwMzY0OTY4NQ@@._ V1._SX214_CR0,0,214,314_.jpg

[Oling_Roachinen]

I've been wondering about this as well..
No Reed's, how will that play out in particular?


If they don't just show up next early next season it could be, as already mentioned, that they aren't that important.

Osha's already taken some of their place in terms of talking about Warging with Bran, Bran himself has had the dreams that Jojen had (the sea coming to Winterfell). So outside of being travel companions and friends to Bran, which another Stark loyalist could probably fill in for, maybe there's not much else to them. Jojen death, the one he's seen, always seemed to be important with how it happens but maybe not.

I think the omission of the Blackfish and Edmure is even more surprising. Edmure's going to have a wedding where something or another happens but even this season he ####s up the war by allowing Tywin to be in position to save King's Landing. And the Blackfish and his escape from Riverrun seemed like it would end up being a big deal as well.

Of course with book 3 being seasons 3 and 4 they might have the time to introduce these characters then.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

If they don't just show up next early next season it could be, as already mentioned, that they aren't that important.

Osha's already taken some of their place in terms of talking about Warging with Bran, Bran himself has had the dreams that Jojen had (the sea coming to Winterfell). So outside of being travel companions and friends to Bran, which another Stark loyalist could probably fill in for, maybe there's not much else to them. Jojen death, the one he's seen, always seemed to be important with how it happens but maybe not.

I think the omission of the Blackfish and Edmure is even more surprising. Edmure's going to have a wedding where something or another happens but even this season he ####s up the war by allowing Tywin to be in position to save King's Landing. And the Blackfish and his escape from Riverrun seemed like it would end up being a big deal as well.

Of course with book 3 being seasons 3 and 4 they might have the time to introduce these characters then.


To be fair, we didn't learn that in the book until Book 3 IIRC. I mean we saw what Edmure was doing in book 2 but we didn't find out how it affected things until later.

[Arbitor]

For Bran's story line: This week is very likely going to be the episode where Theon kills the kids. The following week Ramsey comes along, captures Theon and destroys Winterfell. The very end of the season will be probably be Bran's group emerging from the tomb and Osha decides the safest place is with her people because the kingdoms are too busy fighting each other and they head north. Next season will probably begin with them meeting up with the Reeds at some point (Jojen had a dream). Osha takes Rickon to Skagos and Bran goes with the Reeds to the wall.

The reason I feel the Reeds are important is that they're Bran's protectors since Hodor can't really fight. Osha and Rickon have to go to Skagos because Davos is sent there later to retrieve him in order to assist in the retaking of Winterfell.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

For Bran's story line: This week is very likely going to be the episode where Theon kills the kids. The following week Ramsey comes along, captures Theon and destroys Winterfell. The very end of the season will be probably be Bran's group emerging from the tomb and Osha decides the safest place is with her people because the kingdoms are too busy fighting each other and they head north. Next season will probably begin with them meeting up with the Reeds at some point (Jojen had a dream). Osha takes Rickon to Skagos and Bran goes with the Reeds to the wall.

The reason I feel the Reeds are important is that they're Bran's protectors since Hodor can't really fight. Osha and Rickon have to go to Skagos because Davos is sent there later to retrieve him in order to assist in the retaking of Winterfell.

I think Osha replaces the Reeds and she protects Bran.

Also, I don't think them hiding in the crypts will be featured. They'll just escape Winterfell (or already have) and Theon will kill some random kids to hide their escape.

[d_phaneuf]

I am kinda surprised they didn't somehow have the dead kids Theon killed look like it was Bran/Rickon on the tv show for a cliff hanger one episode

[Arbitor]

I was thinking about all the characters coming up in the future. I don't know how this show can go beyond book 3. So many storylines spread throughout the world. All sorts of characters. The cost of CG is also going to go up. It'll be interesting to see what ultimately gets cut.

[bomber317]

Anybody want to throw out an over/under for the next book release?

I'd be pleasantly surprised if it comes out before 2015.

[J epworth]

I am kinda surprised they didn't somehow have the dead kids Theon killed look like it was Bran/Rickon on the tv show for a cliff hanger one episode

They definitely still could do that next episode, I bet it is the ending of the episode actually, with the heads sticking on the spikes, then start next episode with bran and rick on, so you find out right away that they kids were a fake.

[Bobblehead]

Lots and lots of changes.

There are starting to get to be so many story-lines it is difficult to keep them progressing, so I imagine the changes are to keep things moving.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Lots and lots of changes.

There are starting to get to be so many story-lines it is difficult to keep them progressing, so I imagine the changes are to keep things moving.

What I found interesting is how faithful they are at times and yet how some of the storylines veer.

So Xaro and Pyat Pree made a pact to take over the thirteen and rule Qarth?

Where is the story with Tywin going? Will Arya still escape with Gendry at season's end?

Theon's story is playing out reasonably similar.

I am really not a fan of the changes for Jon. I much, much preferred it when he was ordered to stay with the free folk. Now if he stays with them and becomes a traitor he's just a straight up traitor. At least before he was acting under orders.

[d_phaneuf]

that episode may have changed the most from the book that I can remember, I think it will pay off well in the final 3 episodes though

[Bobblehead]

Both Tywin and Cersei are being portrayed MUCH more sympathetically in the show than they are in the books. I like the change for Tywin but I think Cersei acknowledging Joffrey being unbalanced is going to force changes to how Joff's demise is handled.

It would be interesting to know which plot points the writers are going to stay true to, vs where they are willing to stray. I mean I wonder if they have a full plot outline and just know as long as they hit certain points then they are free to stray outside of that.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Both Tywin and Cersei are being portrayed MUCH more sympathetically in the show than they are in the books. I like the change for Tywin but I think Cersei acknowledging Joffrey being unbalanced is going to force changes to how Joff's demise is handled.

It would be interesting to know which plot points the writers are going to stay true to, vs where they are willing to stray. I mean I wonder if they have a full plot outline and just know as long as they hit certain points then they are free to stray outside of that.

Cersei is actually kind of a funny character. She's so blind and stupid but at times is so honest. They definitely made her aknowledge Joff being a POS more herer than in the books. In the books she's always giving Tommen #### for crying and saying how Joff wouldn't do that.

I'm a little disappointed that we haven't seen any of Tyrion's scheming about the upcoming battle.

Also, a while ago I made a prediction based on the TV show about Jorah. At the time I also wasn't sure where his allegiances were in the books either. I've since read in book 3 and/or 4 when he admitted to being in contact with Westeros. Interesting point is that he mentioned that he sent a message from Qarth. I did not remember that from the first time around. I wonder if they'll drop any more hints about him and Varys to set up for the big reveal (Barriston is Arstan and Jorah was a spy) at the end of book 3.

Shouldn't Barriston the Bold be re-introduced soon? Do you suppose they'll have him save the day and get her dragons back? did he not appear after she'd burnt down the house of the undying in book 2?

[Bobblehead]

Yeah, in the books Artisan appears after she has pretty much worn out her welcome in Qarth and has been searching for ships. But there has been so much of a divergence in the Qarth plotline that who knows how it will proceed.

[GreenLantern]

I kind of like the changes. Not saying I think they are the right moves, and I am glad the book is the way it is, but it is cool to see the story develop slightly different than the books.

Getting another perspective on things.. I think the changes are subtle enough to make for great TV without compromising the story line, yet. We will see what happens as the ripples keep travelling outwards.

[Tinordi]

Definitely like the changes in qarth, that story was an absolute Mrs in the books.

Jamies story is also much tighter and better with Karstarks injustice fresh for the viewer.

Don't like where things seem to be going with Jon. It appears that the story with Qorin may not play out which would be a huge shame.

[Tinordi]

Also Roose Bolton casting is weak. Nothing like the character in the book which is very well done.

[d_phaneuf]

Definitely like the changes in qarth, that story was an absolute Mrs in the books.

Jamies story is also much tighter and better with Karstarks injustice fresh for the viewer.

Don't like where things seem to be going with Jon. It appears that the story with Qorin may not play out which would be a huge shame.

They really set that up well last night, his whole life is based on his fighting ability, he would feel useless if he couldn't do it etc.

[Coys1882]

Also Roose Bolton casting is weak. Nothing like the character in the book which is very well done.
I'm assuming it won't matter much as this is as big as his role will get?

[WhiteTiger]

I'm assuming it won't matter much as this is as big as his role will get?

No...no...he becomes rather important in the books... ;)

[Bobblehead]

Beyond the show being really good I'm enjoying watching the non-book readers in the other thread give their opinions on the characters and their guesses of what happens.

The hate for Theon and Joffrey is great. The sympathy for Jaime is a bit earlier than the books.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Beyond the show being really good I'm enjoying watching the non-book readers in the other thread give their opinions on the characters and their guesses of what happens.

The hate for Theon and Joffrey is great. The sympathy for Jaime is a bit earlier than the books.


It's too bad the show likely won't go into quite as much detail about the Hound. It looks like they've decided to cover it a bit, but I loved the moments in the book with him and Sansa. I imagine he'd be a polarizing character and I'd love to see reactions of the TV show only people on whether he deserves to die or not.

I wonder if he'll replace Ser Dontos as her helper. Although that could throw a wrench in his storyline with Arya.

The Hound is IMO by far the most sympathetic grey area character. I felt so bad for him that Sansa was terrified of him and then that Arya hated his guts. He is such a torn character with so many issues. He's truly a broken man who hates the monster that he is.

I'm surprised someone noticed already what a great odd couple Brienne and Jaime make.

[Bigtime]

I'm like the two of you as well, it is fun to see which people are hitting pretty close to the mark with their future predicitions. And just to see their opinions of characters (and how they change over time).

[GP_Matt]

My wife watched Theon string up the bodies and immediately said "It isn't them, he wouldn't have burned them if it was them"
That seems to be the general consensus that they didn't really leave it as much of a cliffhanger.

[VladtheImpaler]

My wife watched Theon string up the bodies and immediately said "It isn't them, he wouldn't have burned them if it was them"
That seems to be the general consensus that they didn't really leave it as much of a cliffhanger.

Yeah, Mrs. Impaler said the same thing. Unless the writers actually threw us readers a curve and decided to get rid of the whole boring Bran storyline. ;)

[Arbitor]

I'm very disappointed with the way that cliffhanger worked out. Could have been handled much better. When that happened in the books I was more angry about it then I was about Ned's death. I cheered when Theon revealed what he actually did about the boys.

[VladtheImpaler]

Refresh my memory, whom did Arya use her 3 death wishes on in the book?

[GP_Matt]

The tickler was first and the guards were last. I can't remember the second.

[VladtheImpaler]

The tickler was first and the guards were last. I can't remember the second.

She killed the guard herself when they were escaping.

[Bobblehead]

She killed the guard herself when they were escaping.

No, I think he meant there were a group of prisoners from the north brought in and Arya had him kill all of those guards to allow the northmen to escape.

[GreenLantern]

So Catelyn sends Jamie away with Brienne to trade for Sansa instead of seeing him ripped to shreds by Robs men right?

I can't remember that part... then along the way he escapes from Brienne and is caught by Vargo who takes his hand?

[Coys1882]

Arya's targets if I remember right were: The Tickler, the fat cook that was mean to Hot Pie and then she picks Jaquar himself because he won't help her free the Northerners. That's when he helps free them and gives her the coin and the saying Valar Margolius (sp.)

[Cecil Terwilliger]

So Catelyn sends Jamie away with Brienne to trade for Sansa instead of seeing him ripped to shreds by Robs men right?

I can't remember that part... then along the way he escapes from Brienne and is caught by Vargo who takes his hand?

Pretty much. They are eventually taken to Harrenhal where Bolton releases Jaime and gives Brienne to Vargo and the Bloody Mummers.

Jaime comes back to save her and they both escape.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

I normally avoid cross posting between threads but this can go here too if we want to talk about it in terms of the books:

I had the most bizarre moment with a friend. I was talking about GoT and he asked me which side I'm on.

I didn't even know what he meant at first. That topic hasn't really come up, either with the books or the TV show.

He ended up clarifying, wanting to know which house I took my allegiance with. After talking for a while it turns out he tried the books but couldn't get through them and is sticking with the TV show for now.

The cool part is that he'd definitely chosen a house to support. I thought that was really interesting.

Is this common? Does anyone here find themselves pulling for a certain house? I guess the Starks are the most obvious answer. Any Tyrell, Baelish (that'd be Littlefinger), Stannis, Dany or Lannister supporters in the game of thrones?

I honestly never would have thought of it in terms of "this is the family I'm routing for". I'm just along for the ride. There are some characters I like better than others, but I never thought of pulling for one house over another.



I used to be totally pro-Stark but now that they're all pretty much dead, I find myself hoping Dany comes over and cleans house. For the first few books I definitely wasn't a big Targaryan supporter. In fact, like I said, I never thought about houses, only characters I supported. Tyrion comes to mind because I hate the rest of the Lannisters.

I also find myself kinda pulling for Littlefinger. I'm just over half way through book 4 on the second read through and I find myself hoping that he ends up out backstabbing them all and being left in control of Westeros. Only to have Dany wreak havoc with her dragons and kill the Others and then marry Jon.

[bomber317]

Refresh my memory, whom did Arya use her 3 death wishes on in the book?

Chiswyck
Weese
Jaqen

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Arya_Stark

[Bigtime]

House Martell baby, they have been working on getting the iron throne ever since the "baby bashing" incident occurred. I know we haven't seen too much of them until the last couple of books but I find the fact that the prince is going for the long play to get what he wants very interesting. I look forward to seeing what happens (despite the setback with the death of the Red Viper and Quentyn).

[Bobblehead]

I think HBO has been promoting individual houses because if you go to their store for GoT they have lots of merchandise with the house sigil on them.

http://store.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/index.php?v=hbo_shows_game-of-thrones

[Bobblehead]

Tywin is getting LOTS of love in the TV thread. While I can understand it based on the show, it isn't something I saw coming from reading the book.

And it seems like Rob's character needs to be developed some more. There isn't enough of the "boy trying to fill his father's shoes" feel to it. Everything his character had done on screen has seemed too easy. The audience really hasn't gotten a reason to care for Rob.

[Bigtime]

Tywin is getting LOTS of love in the TV thread. While I can understand it based on the show, it isn't something I saw coming from reading the book.

And it seems like Rob's character needs to be developed some more. There isn't enough of the "boy trying to fill his father's shoes" feel to it. Everything his character had done on screen has seemed too easy. The audience really hasn't gotten a reason to care for Rob.

I'm not watching season 2 yet, but I am assuming Tywin is getting a lot more screen time than he did book time at this point? I wonder if they'll still off him on the crapper (guessing around the end of season 4 on the show)?

[Bobblehead]

Yes, he is a lot more involved. And I hope they off him like that but I could see HBO making it happen in the bed chamber instead. Decapitations and rape are fine but someone killed while pinching out a loaf is something America isn't ready to see.

[Oling_Roachinen]

House Martell baby, they have been working on getting the iron throne ever since the "baby bashing" incident occurred. I know we haven't seen too much of them until the last couple of books but I find the fact that the prince is going for the long play to get what he wants very interesting. I look forward to seeing what happens (despite the setback with the death of the Red Viper and Quentyn).

Yeah, I'm definitely House Martell. Or at least I'm for Doran...come to think of it the rest of the Martell family are far less calculating and rational. Aegon (assuming he is indeed Aegon) would also be his grandson and he has at least an outside shot to the crown and would technically the rightful heir to the Targ dynasty.

[GreenLantern]

I was also a fan of House Martell, until Oberyon (sp) died. Now I don't really know, maybe the Reeds.. Howlen seems like quit the badass if we could ever meet him.

It is kind of cool what Martin has done here, I don't really care who wins the throne, what is left of the kingdom anyway, good luck bringing it all together. There are for sure houses I don't want to get it though, like the Greyjoys, Boltons, Lannister etc..

[Bigtime]

I was also a fan of House Martell, until Oberyon (sp) died. Now I don't really know, maybe the Reeds.. Howlen seems like quit the badass if we could ever meet him.

I didn't like how the Red Viper died. It was an epic fight, and then to have it end due to him pulling a classic wrasslin' move and enjoying what he thought was his victory before the Mountain jumps him unexpectedly was just cheesy to me.

I just hope we see some Sand Snakes taking names in the next two books.

[TurnedTheCorner]

I'm about 2/3 of the way through A Storm of Swords.I just read the chapters leading up to and concluding with the Tully/Frey wedding at the twins. I am *not* happy. Not happy at all. I was so hoping Arya would get reunited with her family. Now it seems she has little family left. ****.
:(

[WhiteTiger]

I'm about 2/3 of the way through A Storm of Swords.I just read the chapters leading up to and concluding with the Tully/Frey wedding at the twins. I am *not* happy. Not happy at all. I was so hoping Arya would get reunited with her family. Now it seems she has little family left. ****.
:(

Ah, the Red Wedding grabs another unsuspecting reader. ;) Just think now of the internet rage you'll read about when it makes it to the big screen...

[TurnedTheCorner]

Indeed. Small consolation though.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

One thing first: TTC watch out, people don't use spoiler tags in this thread. You may see posts (like mine) that contain outright series changing info.

Re the RW: Once you accept it and move on it becomes easier to handle. When I first read about the RW I was livid. But as you may have seen earlier I'm on my second go round and it didn't bother me nearly as much the second time, but was still a source of stress because it was THE big event that I knew I couldn't avoid.


Something I'm noticing about Feast for Crows is that not only are there only a select few characters that are featured (the rest obviously being in DwD) but the chapters are quite a bit longer than other books.

Most chapters I'd say are about 15-20 pages, sometimes shorter. Book 4 is pretty much 25 page chapters as the norm. Not only that but so many chapters and they focus heavily on Jaime, Cersei, Brienne.

I don't hate those storylines but they tend to be very descriptive and without a whole ton of intrigue. I've always said I love the backstabbing political nature of the books but I can only take so much of Cersei being a bitch or Brienne wondering aimlessly. Cersei's at least involves a ton of backstabbing and stuff. Brienne's whole damn book is her chasing a red herring.

[Grimbl420]

I'm about 100 pages into Feast For Crows, and I'm already finding my interest wavering. I was really hoping for some follow up on the Catelyn Stark situation G.R.R.M. left us with at the end of Storm Of Swords by now.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Just finished a Feast for Crows. Wow. This book isn't as exciting as the first three but it has a lot of twists.

Tom Sevenstrings is undercover at riverrun with new lord emmon Frey.

Pate, the guy killed by J'aqen Hagar in the prologue, has apparently been replaced by J'aqen.

Those two I didn't remember. Then of course there is Cersei getting screwed and Brienne's "last" word.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Oh and Margaery Tyrell made out with Captain America.

[Bigtime]

Just finished a Feast for Crows. Wow. This book isn't as exciting as the first three but it has a lot of twists.

Tom Sevenstrings is undercover at riverrun with new lord emmon Frey.

Pate, the guy killed by J'aqen Hagar in the prologue, has apparently been replaced by J'aqen.

Those two I didn't remember. Then of course there is Cersei getting screwed and Brienne's "last" word.

Don't forget the probable sighting of Sandor Clegane on the island monastery (when Brienne and Co. visit it).

[Ped]

Don't forget the probable sighting of Sandor Clegane on the island monastery (when Brienne and Co. visit it).

I didn't like the book the first time I read it, but upon re-reading it, appreciated it a lot more. It suffers from the limited viewpoints it offers, but the insights into Jamie and the Martells alone makes it more than worth any shortcomings imo.

[Bobblehead]

Interesting that apparently HBO isn't giving critics a preview release for the final 2 episodes.
Hey, don’t look for these reviews to be as timely in the next two weeks. HBO wants to keep these last two episodes a surprise even for us critics. It should be a blast. http://www.avclub.com/articles/the-prince-of-winterfell-for-experts,75237/
(I didn't put the link in the other thread because it is from an article written for people who have written the books - A.V.Club posts 2 reviews for each episode, one for TV viewers only (newbies) one for book readers (experts).)

And the show sure doesn't seem to like including any of the direwolves on screen, do they?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

And the show sure doesn't seem to like including any of the direwolves on screen, do they?

So assuming they don't like showing the direwolves due to the cost of cgi, it made me think.

Suppose that is part of the reason they changed Dany's story? Not the only reason obviously. It adds intrigue that her story didn't have before but gives them an excuse to not have to feature the dragons for 4 episodes.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

So assuming they don't like showing the direwolves due to the cost of cgi, it made me think.

Suppose that is part of the reason they changed Dany's story? Not the only reason obviously. It adds intrigue that her story didn't have before but gives them an excuse to not have to feature the dragons for 4 episodes.

I think that's pretty much it: 50% to save money, 50% to give her something to do.

[Bobblehead]

The lack of Direwolves has made the Bran storyline pretty bad. I never minded Bran since I liked the idea of a "broken" boy who battles the lure of living an active life through his wolf. Without that it is just depressing.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

The lack of Direwolves has made the Bran storyline pretty bad. I never minded Bran since I liked the idea of a "broken" boy who battles the lure of living an active life through his wolf. Without that it is just depressing.


Good point. They definitely need to address his warg abilities soon. It is vital to his whole storyline going forward.

[Boblobla]

The Bran storyline is terrible in the books as well. He has so few chapters I wonder what they are going to do with the character. Especially since they are doing away with the Reeds.

[Bobblehead]

They stayed relatively true to the books in this episode (relatively being the key word).

[Cecil Terwilliger]

I figured they wouldn't disfigure Tyrion as badly as they do in the books.

[d_phaneuf]

Ya there was no way that was going to happen

They set it up well too where it was clear that Tyrion's work was the main reason that Stannis just didn't basically walk in to the castle but Tywin and the Tyrell's claim all the glory

[Oling_Roachinen]

Loved that episode. Especially loved the bell conversation between Tyrion and Varys, non-readers think it's just a little jab at marriages but us readers..oh we know.

Also loved that I found myself rooting for both sides of the battles at points. The actress who portrays Cersei I think is my new favourite actor on this show.

Probably my biggest disappointment, which is actually extremely small, is that Tyrion's chain was left out (which was obviously entire season not an episode specific complaint). There's just a huge difference between the book where Tyrion very riskily had all the blacksmiths making this huge ass chain instead of actually preparing for war by making/fixing weapons and armour, Tyrion knew that there was no hope to fight this battle "head-on" and that's why he really did deserve the credit for the win.

In the show he had pre-made wildfire put on a boat and used as a bomb, which was closer to just putting 2 and 2 together.


Anyways, I know a lot of fans are looking forward to the House of the Undying or some Winterfell action next episode but I'm really hoping to get a glimpse of Belwas and his squire, they may or may not be introduced, but I'd love for them to show up after the dragon burns down the House and help save Dany.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

^^^ actually I have no idea what secret meaning the Bells have.

[Bobblehead]

People in the TV thread think there will be some plot elements resolved next week? Suckers

And I can't believe there is only one more episode this season!

[d_phaneuf]

People in the TV thread think there will be some plot elements resolved next week? Suckers

And I can't believe there is only one more episode this season!

haha I saw that

"there's so much to wrap up next week..."

[Bobblehead]

It seems like most people who have not read the books seem to think Sansa has left with the Hound.

Of course maybe she has for the TV series - that would remove the need for Ser Dontos or the whole Tyrion/Sansa wedding which may help in speeding the story along.

[Coys1882]

People in the TV thread think there will be some plot elements resolved next week? Suckers To hell with them in that thread I say!! They drew the line in the sand that caused us to choose sides. The schism that exists between us is on them - let them believe what they want. Fools.

[Bobblehead]

To hell with them in that thread I say!! They drew the line in the sand that caused us to choose sides. The schism that exists between us is on them - let them believe what they want. Fools.

I wouldn't go that far. I tend to agree with them and if they don't want spoilers then it is almost impossible for anyone who has read the book to say much beyond answering character specific questions we know from the show (eg "who was this character"). Plus, there is enough divergence from the books that while we know how the story should progress, we don't know if that will be written into the show. While I think Sansa is still in the Hand's tower, with the changes in TV show I can't be sure.

Asoif has shown that no character is safe. The tropes of "the protagonist will always survive" was killed when Ned Stark's head rolled across the ground. That is one of the most compelling things about this series - you just never know; and that is refreshing. I can definitely see why a non-reader would be upset by almost anything that hints if a character is alive or dead, even if we, as people who have read the books, know that the info is inconsequential.

I actually like seeing the thought processes of the TV show only folk. It reminds me of what I was thinking of that point in the books. And I look forward to the surprise when those guesses are blown out of the water.

[Coys1882]

Sorry - I should have used green text.

[d_phaneuf]

Everywhere I read seems to think Sansa went with him, I don't see anyway that's possible

[Bobblehead]

Sorry - I should have used green text.

Nah, that speech is something I have been mulling in my mind for a while. I used your post as a jumping off point. I just shouldn't have written it while at work and doing 3 other things at the same time.

[jammies]

I don't think Sansa went with the Hound, her question "You won't hurt me?" was, I think, because she was afraid he'd make her come with him even though she didn't want to. As I recall, in the books he also offered to take her away, and she declined, unfortunately for her.

I always feel bad because she annoys me with her stupid decisions and wilful blindness, but she really never has much of a chance. How could she be sure the Hound wasn't laying a trap at Joffrey's behest? We see the Hound flinch at the fire and decide he can't take being Joff's bitch anymore, but she doesn't see any of that, all she knows is that this man she fears has abruptly shown up in her chamber, where she has already retreated to get away from Cersei and her drunken madness.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

It seems like most people who have not read the books seem to think Sansa has left with the Hound.

Of course maybe she has for the TV series - that would remove the need for Ser Dontos or the whole Tyrion/Sansa wedding which may help in speeding the story along.

If you do that, there's pretty much nothing left for Sansa to do for the rest of the series.

[Bobblehead]

If you do that, there's pretty much nothing left for Sansa to do for the rest of the series.

Since she is still alive and kicking she may still have a role to play, but she hasn't really done anything yet.

So next she is: put aside by Joffrey, lets the Tyrrel's know how horrid Joffrey really is, gets married to Tyrion, escapes with Ser Dontos, meets up with Littlefinger, sees Littlefinger marry Lysa, see Littlefinger throw Lysa out the moon door (after she confesses killing Jon Arryn), and is a pawn of Littlefinger in his schemes.

None of those really require Sansa other than as a POV character to be able to see what happened. She may have a major role to play, but it hasn't happened yet.

Let her escape right now and you can cut the entire Tyrion wedding next season.

[Boblobla]

Then what happens with the hound and Sansa though? Does she get lost before the Hound and Arya meet up? I really hope they stick to the books for this one and she is still there.

[Oling_Roachinen]

^^^ actually I have no idea what secret meaning the Bells have.

“I’ve always hated the bells,” says Varys. “They ring for horror. The dead king. The city under siege.”

“A wedding,” says Tyrion.

“Exactly.”


I don't think I was reading into deep with that, surely an allusion to some future weddings that end pretty horribly - even if Varys himself is just taking a jab at weddings.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

“I’ve always hated the bells,” says Varys. “They ring for horror. The dead king. The city under siege.”

“A wedding,” says Tyrion.

“Exactly.”


I don't think I was reading into deep with that, surely an allusion to some future weddings that end pretty horribly - even if Varys himself is just taking a jab at weddings.

Ah, You mean an allusion the writers are making to future events, not the characters.

Yeah I did chuckle at the wedding comment.

[Hanni]

Then what happens with the hound and Sansa though? Does she get lost before the Hound and Arya meet up? I really hope they stick to the books for this one and she is still there.


Don't forget one of the greatest moments of the series happens at Tyrion and Sansa's wedding. They would have to work it in somewhere else but the wedding is perfect because the way Joffrey treats Tyrion during the whole thing makes Tyrion the prime suspect.

[Boblobla]

I thought it was Joffreys wedding where he was poisoned? I might be remembering incorrectly.

Watched the battle last night, I thought it was done really well. I am curious to see if they my Tywin more of a villain next season, I don't think I am a huge fan of how he is portrayed.

[Hanni]

I think you're right, it was Joffrey's wedding, regardless the poisoning happens after the treatment of Tyrion by Joffrey leading up to and during Tyrion and Sansa's wedding really sets up Tyrion being the prime suspect and having to flee. It all just works too well to not have it happen IMO.

Also, I just read through the TV thread and I can't believe how long it took for someone to address Loras/the Tyrell's showing up with Tywin. I think it was too quick of a shot and a lot of people missed it, talking with my Mom last night who has not read the books she had no idea either.

I think you're really starting to see, with people who haven't read the books, the sheer volume of character starting to confuse people.

[Bigtime]

I'm not surprised the tv viewers are getting overwhelmed by characters, I know I was just reading the books. That's why I'm looking forward to my re-read to catch a lot of little stuff with characters I'm sure I missed the first time through.

So did the show have the scene with someone in Renly's armour leading the charge with Stannis? Or did they cut that part? I could have seen that helping show the Tyrell's siding with the Lannister's in a more obvious way than the quick shot of Loras taking off his helmet (I'm assuming that is the scene that tells the tale).

[Bobblehead]

Tyrion's wedding was a small, intimate thing. Sansa not kneeling to allow Tyrion to attach the marriage robe was the most memorable thing.

It was at Joffrey's wedding, where Tyrion gives him a rare book which Joffrey proceeds to destroy with his new sword, then the whole dwarf jousting.

I'm not advocating cutting the Tyrion/Sansa wedding, just that with the cuts that have already happened I can see that being relatively easily cut. Next season will be busy enough as it is. The other 2 weddings will take a lot of time. Jaime's hand. The Red Viper. And that is just Westeros, Danni needs to take over some cities, there is a war at the wall. It will be interesting to see how much they can fit into 10 (or even 12) episodes.

[Bobblehead]

I'm not surprised the tv viewers are getting overwhelmed by characters, I know I was just reading the books. That's why I'm looking forward to my re-read to catch a lot of little stuff with characters I'm sure I missed the first time through.

So did the show have the scene with someone in Renly's armour leading the charge with Stannis? Or did they cut that part? I could have seen that helping show the Tyrell's siding with the Lannister's in a more obvious way than the quick shot of Loras taking off his helmet (I'm assuming that is the scene that tells the tale).

They cut the whole "Renly's ghost" part. Loras' helmet was the only shot, and I missed that it was Loras first time through.

[Bigtime]

I'm not advocating cutting the Tyrion/Sansa wedding, just that with the cuts that have already happened I can see that being relatively easily cut. Next season will be busy enough as it is. The other 2 weddings will take a lot of time. Jaime's hand. The Red Viper. And that is just Westeros, Danni needs to take over some cities, there is a war at the wall. It will be interesting to see how much they can fit into 10 (or even 12) episodes.

I've heard the plan was to split book 3 into two seasons, it would make the most sense. Plus they can cliffhanger season 3 with the end of the Red Wedding and Arya's death fake-out.

I really hope they do this, as I'd love to see the TV thread collectively sh*t themselves.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

I've heard the plan was to split book 3 into two seasons, it would make the most sense. Plus they can cliffhanger season 3 with the end of the Red Wedding and Arya's death fake-out.

I really hope they do this, as I'd love to see the TV thread collectively sh*t themselves.

Just to add to this, especially given my comments in the other thread about the Sand Snakes that almost caused mass suicides, Red Viper isn't introduced until about halfway through book 3. About 10 capters before the Red Wedding.

Depending on how they choose to do the story, he may not show up until season 4 (book 3 pt 2).

The Sand Snakes aren't introduced until Book 4, which would likely be season 5.