Insider spills beans on the X360 RROD...

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Great read on the reasons behind the RROD from a staffer in the know. Gems like:

Second, MS was so focused on beating Sony this cycle that the 360 was rushed to market when all indications were that it had serious flaws. The design qual testing was insufficient and incomplete when the product was released to production.

RROD is caused by anything that fails in the "digital backbone" on the mother board. Also known as a core digital error. CPU, GPU, memory, etc. Bad parts, incompatible parts (timing problems) bad manufacturing process (like solder joints), misapplied heat sinks or thermal interface material, missing parts, broken parts, parts of the wrong value, missed test coverage. Any one or more, on any chip, or many other discrete components, would cause this.

The main design flaw was the excessive heat on the GPU warping the mother board around it. This would stress the solder joints on the GPU and any bad joints would then fail in early life.

Q: How many times does an Xbox 360 unit have to be sent in and repaired before they will replace it with a completely new unit?
That's not how it works. You send in a broken box, you get back a working box (hopefully). So there is a rotating stock of the original units that get repaired and returned to service. Plus, they keep finding these cashes of launch units here and there and using them too. Didn't you hear during the holidays that bundles were found with units made in 06? Those were pulled back from the retail channel last spring when the new heatsink was done, and had the new heatsink placed on them and then put into the shipping flow like any other box.

http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/digitaljoystick/archives/129866.asp

[JayP]

I never understood the people who get 3+ RROD and don't just give up and sell the 360 for a PS3 or a Wii.

Even if you think the game library is that much better what's the point in a console that you have to send for repair every couple months?

[SarichFan]

I never understood the people who get 3+ RROD and don't just give up and sell the 360 for a PS3 or a Wii.

Even if you think the game library is that much better what's the point in a console that you have to send for repair every couple months?

I've had a 360 for 2 years and only had one fail on me... BUT I do have a PS3 as a backup if I have to send it in.

[Russic]

I've read that before and it really is mind blowing. The only thing more shocking to me is the devotion many people show to the company after being provided with defective equipment multiple times. I'm not anti-360 or anything, I'm just amazed at how many people don't seem to get overly annoyed by the failure rate.

[Hemi-Cuda]

i've had my 360 for almost 2 years and i've never had a problem. maybe i'm the minority, but for what i want it blows the PS3 away in every category

[The_Dude]

I've had the original core system for 3 years and never had a problem yet.

[burn_this_city]

Microsoft has always cut corners on hardware.. Believe it or not my buddy went through 11 or 12 first gen XBOXs.. He would leave them on all the time and they would die every few months.. He worked at walmart so he'd get a new one no questons asked.. I think the 360 is quite a bit better, but when compared to say the NES or any nintendo product its a peice of junk..

[Flaming Choy]

never had a problem here (about 2 years now). Actually never had a problem with any systems i've owned except the original playstation, but just had to adjust the POT on the laser to fix that. Maybe some people don't take care of their stuff very well? Or play a lot more then i do.

[Bobblehead]

never had a problem here (about 2 years now). Actually never had a problem with any systems i've owned except the original playstation, but just had to adjust the POT on the laser to fix that. Maybe some people don't take care of their stuff very well? Or play a lot more then i do.

Well from the article, the "insider" quoted 30% failure rate, similar to what has been mentioned for months from retailers. In a hardware industry, that is pretty atrocious and I'm not sure it can be blamed on people not taking care of their stuff well. It's a video game system, not a set of china plates.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

I never understood the people who get 3+ RROD and don't just give up and sell the 360 for a PS3 or a Wii.

Even if you think the game library is that much better what's the point in a console that you have to send for repair every couple months?

I'd gladly turn my back on the 360 platform for it's miserable hardware failure rate, but bottom line it's got the games I want to play.

I made the conscious decision to not get the best deal, but buy from a retailer that'll let me exchange it for a new one on the spot vs send it in to MS.

On a sidenote, this new BenQ drive that's supposed to be quieter....isnt.

[RyZ]

Including myself, my circle of gaming friends has 5 360's and we've seen 7 RROD's as a group with everybody having at least 1.

To tell you the truth I'm suprised the mainsteam media didn't jump all over this story a whole lot more than they did.

MS's investors can't be happy if the 360 ends up in 3rd world-wide at the end of the generation and they spent millions and millions in replacements in the first half of the 360's life cycle.

Also interesting is that Peter Moore, the head of MS's Xbox division at the the start of the generation is no longer with MS and now runs EA's sports division.

[psicodude]

MS's investors can't be happy if the 360 ends up in 3rd world-wide at the end of the generation and they spent millions and millions in replacements in the first half of the 360's life cycle.

The xbox division just posted a quarterly profit of over $300 million, so I think the investors couldn't care less. I would wager that the sales of Halo 3 alone covered the cost of the hardware replacement several times over.

[Burninator]

I've had mine over a year and never had any problems. I am sure it isn't as bad as a problem as the internet makes it out to be. People go online to complain, not to report that everything is working fine.

[RyZ]

The xbox division just posted a quarterly profit of over $300 million, so I think the investors couldn't care less. I would wager that the sales of Halo 3 alone covered the cost of the hardware replacement several times over.
True, but this is the first quarter since the launch of the original xbox that the xbox division has has not lost hundreds of millions. In total the xbox division has lost in the north of 4 BILLION dollars since it's inception.

If Microsoft comes out last this generation world-wide (and it's very likely they will) and have a loss of 3 Billion on the project since it's inception, do you not think some of the investors might get ancy? The RROD problems would just be another straw (and probably a big heavy one) on the camels back.

The video game industry has shown that it is big enough to support 3 major hardware players, but at this point MS has more reason to drop out sooner than the other 2. I sure hope that doesn't happen though and I'm sure it won't any time soon.

[JayP]

I've had mine over a year and never had any problems. I am sure it isn't as bad as a problem as the internet makes it out to be. People go online to complain, not to report that everything is working fine.

The 33% failure rate that was confirmed my Microsoft says differently.

Microsoft says they've done measures to fix the problem with new systems, but it's still being reported that the new systems are failing at an unacceptable rate.

I've read that before and it really is mind blowing. The only thing more shocking to me is the devotion many people show to the company after being provided with defective equipment multiple times. I'm not anti-360 or anything, I'm just amazed at how many people don't seem to get overly annoyed by the failure rate.

It's more shocking to see people how many people actually went out and re-bought the system after it failed on them (before the 3 year warranty). Especially since it's been widely known for a long time that the 360 is the most unreliable console ever.

[Flames89]

The video game industry has shown that it is big enough to support 3 major hardware players, but at this point MS has more reason to drop out sooner than the other 2. I sure hope that doesn't happen though and I'm sure it won't any time soon.

I really don't understand your logic. Why is the 360 going to drop out? It outsells the PS3 by more than 2:1
http://nexgenwars.com/

- It also has a the TOP selling game of all time. Grossing more than any media over the opening weekend ever.

- Has built itself very strong software licenses and has software studios that used to be Sony exclusive building for them as well (DMC4).

- 4 of the top 10 Game Sales in November were on Xbox360, compared to 3 for Wii and 2 for PS3

- Has an unparralleled "Live" experience with other players

Further, as I understand it, the PS3 costs the most to produce and loses the most per unit sold b/c of the expensive Blue-Ray components. Next in line is the 360, but since they have sold almost 20 million, there are cost savings occurring.

The Wii can almost be left out of this argument. It is the top seller, but many Wii owners who consider themselves "gamers" have another console. It also is the only machine that MAKES money per sale.

Microsoft had a 2Q Net Income of $4.71Billion, Sales of $16.4Billion! Their Entertainment Division, which is Xbox and Zune (not like that sells) had a 2Q of $3.1 Billion. (Those are all "B's")

So because there is a high failure rate for 360's, Microsoft is going to pull out of the race? A $7.4 Billion dollar industry in 2006?

I am not saying PS3 can come out on top (though my bets are still with MS), but to imply they would "pull out" is rendonculous!

[Blaster86]

I really don't understand your logic. Why is the 360 going to drop out? It outsells the PS3 by more than 2:1
http://nexgenwars.com/

The PS3 is expected to catch up and surpass the X-Box360 by next year on the back of major PS3 exclusive titles apparently(Final Fantasy nerds anyone?)

[theJuice]

Final Fantasy 13, Final Fantasy Versus, Metal Gear Solid 4, White Knight Story are basically my reasons for getting a PS3. Finally some actual AAA titles.

[Flames89]

Final Fantasy 13, Final Fantasy Versus, Metal Gear Solid 4, White Knight Story are basically my reasons for getting a PS3. Finally some actual AAA titles.

Yes. White Knight Story. AAA. :bag:



Anyway, not to take the piss out of you, I agree. If RPGs give you a chubby then PS3 all the way. Shooters? 360.

Regardless, there is a 360 vs PS3 thread elsewhere ...

I was just saying that I don't see the 360 bowing out anytime soon ... even in the face of "White Knight Story"!!11!!FEAR!!!! ;)

[Blaster86]

Yes. White Knight Story. AAA. :bag:



Anyway, not to take the piss out of you, I agree. If RPGs give you a chubby then PS3 all the way. Shooters? 360.

Regardless, there is a 360 vs PS3 thread elsewhere ...

I was just saying that I don't see the 360 bowing out anytime soon ... even in the face of "White Knight Story"!!11!!FEAR!!!! ;)

To be honest I think we'll see one of Microsoft or Sony bow out sooner than later. They're not 100% videogames like Nintendo and if losses keep building those involved may start to get skittish.

[RyZ]

I really don't understand your logic. Why is the 360 going to drop out? It outsells the PS3 by more than 2:1
http://nexgenwars.com/

- It also has a the TOP selling game of all time. Grossing more than any media over the opening weekend ever.

- Has built itself very strong software licenses and has software studios that used to be Sony exclusive building for them as well (DMC4).

- 4 of the top 10 Game Sales in November were on Xbox360, compared to 3 for Wii and 2 for PS3

- Has an unparralleled "Live" experience with other players

Further, as I understand it, the PS3 costs the most to produce and loses the most per unit sold b/c of the expensive Blue-Ray components. Next in line is the 360, but since they have sold almost 20 million, there are cost savings occurring.

The Wii can almost be left out of this argument. It is the top seller, but many Wii owners who consider themselves "gamers" have another console. It also is the only machine that MAKES money per sale.

Microsoft had a 2Q Net Income of $4.71Billion, Sales of $16.4Billion! Their Entertainment Division, which is Xbox and Zune (not like that sells) had a 2Q of $3.1 Billion. (Those are all "B's")

So because there is a high failure rate for 360's, Microsoft is going to pull out of the race? A $7.4 Billion dollar industry in 2006?

I am not saying PS3 can come out on top (though my bets are still with MS), but to imply they would "pull out" is rendonculous!

nexgenwars.com isn't exactly considered an accurate source by any stretch.

I never said they were going to pull out. I just said that of the 3 major players they will likely have the lowest world-wide instal base, worst reputation for hardware and the least amount of $$ made off of this generation of the 3. Therefor if any of the 3 have a stronger case than the other 2 to "pull a Sega" at the end of this round it is probably Microsoft.

The Wii is pretty much untouchable right now, dominating the competition in all 3 territories (NA, Japan, Europe). PS3 has sold more in Europe than the 360 since it's launch and in Japan the xbox is an absolute non-factor in weekely sales charts.

Right now it looks something like this, as of Jan 1 08 (last I saw at a credible developer based message board I frequent)

(world wide)

Wii - 22 mil (16 mo.)
360 - 17.5 mil (28 mo.)
PS3 - 10.5 mil (16 mo.)

You can't argue that signs point to the PS3 catching the 360 sometime in the next 2-3 years. 360 is very prevalent in NA but is becoming a clear 3rd place in Europe and has about a 5% market share in Japan compared to the Wii and PS3.

This isn't to show that Microsoft is going to get out of the game anytime soon, just to illustrate the point that the 360 is likely to be this generations Gamecube in terms of sales.


And also, none of the Halo games are even in the ballpark of many NES and SNES Mario titles on the "all time best selling games charts". As a matter of fact I'm not sure if any of the Halo's are in the top 10. Just this generation, whether you want to count them or not, both Wii Sports and Wii Play have higher numbers than Halo 3.

(just checked some numbers and the DS currently has 7 titles with more than Halo3's 8.1 mil sales. Halo3's numbers aren't exactly unprecedented at all)

[I-Hate-Hulse]

While I curse MS and fling feces in their general direction over the RROD, I have to say that them releasing X360 ahead of PS3 was a great strategic decision. Gave them the lead this time round.

X360 is also their platform into digital home media... I think we'll be seeing some hardware add ons to get them into the digital media sales/rentals realm soon, a la Apple TV. That's too much of a market to ignore for that behemoth. No way do they bail out of the console market.

[Flaming Choy]

To be honest I think we'll see one of Microsoft or Sony bow out sooner than later. They're not 100% videogames like Nintendo and if losses keep building those involved may start to get skittish.

there has been lots of chatter about dev's preferring a single console, but I don't really see that happening anytime soon. There's too much money in the video game industry.

[Hack&Lube]

Q: How many times does an Xbox 360 unit have to be sent in and repaired before they will replace it with a completely new unit?
That's not how it works. You send in a broken box, you get back a working box (hopefully). So there is a rotating stock of the original units that get repaired and returned to service. Plus, they keep finding these cashes of launch units here and there and using them too. Didn't you hear during the holidays that bundles were found with units made in 06? Those were pulled back from the retail channel last spring when the new heatsink was done, and had the new heatsink placed on them and then put into the shipping flow like any other box.


In Canada, customers get brand new xboxes as replacements.

And all the talk about Sony or Microsoft dropping out of the console race is patently ridiculous and uninformed. Microsoft had profits near $5 Billion last year. They have WILLINGLY lost millions every quarter since the original XBox came out because for Microsoft, it is their in-road out of the computer-room and out of the office and into the living rooms which has been a clearly stated goal in releases and reports since the late 80s - to get Microsoft in systems in every part of the home.

Sony is a home entertainment giant and the PS3 is the core of their biggest push and only success since the mid-80s in getting their format into living rooms, as part of the royalties they get as part of the Blu-Ray consortium, the PS3 being one of the bigger factors in getting Blu-Ray adopted. Most people don't realize what Sony has to gain from this, Sony lost in 1983 with Betamax to VHS. They lost out on royalties on two generations of home video in VHS and DVD. If Blu-Ray succeeds, the consortium and Sony get royalties from every single Blu-ray disc sold if it becomes the new generational standard.

Neither the PS3 or Xbox are strictly about making money as gaming systems (although Microsoft turned a profit for the first time in 7 years in the game division last year). They are about getting Sony more integrated into their entertainment business and to cement Blu-Ray as a standard successor to DVD so they get royalties from every single disc sold. That kind of money pales anything the PS3 could ever make on gaming. Microsoft's XBox gets them where they always wanted, on top of the TV so they can have further influence and reach and sales for their software and products as well as marketing, they are already a multi-billion dollar company where most of their profits come from offices around the world and they can afford to lose money year after year on XBox simply to work on the brandname and to get into the living room.

Out of all of them, Nintendo is the only true videogame company left, that utter commitment into pure games and the novelty and freshness of gaming is what it took for Nintendo to survive as an underdog against the big two where most others just couldn't compete years ago (Sega). Nintendo realized they never had the money to compete (or lose) on high-tech hardware so they did the smart thing and remembered that gaming should be about fun and thusly the success of the Wii and DS. Most people seem to forget that the N64 and Gamecube were relatively poor performers and Nintendo subsisted for many years on the strength of Gameboy and their handheld dominance...Sony tried to leverage the handheld market as another way to sell their media products (UMD Sony movies) but that was pretty much a disaster, another failed format...Blu-Ray however, probably will succeed.

[llama64]

In Canada, customers get brand new xboxes as replacements.

Indeed.

Makes me wonder about the people who claim they end up getting the red ring of death multiple times. Perhaps they shouldn't be playing with the Xbox wrapped in a blanket while stacked on top of their cable converter.

Heat is the primary cause of all Xbox issues (the other being the DVD drive). Place it on a cool surface away from other electronics and in area where it can breath. Shouldn't experience a single issue assuming the ambient temperature doesn't hit 56 degrees Celsius.

I'm more worried about the disc drive on my Xbox then the board over heating. I've played Gears of War and Halo3 for 5 hour stints before, then felt the machine. My Macbook puts out more heat then what I felt.

[JayP]

Yes. White Knight Story. AAA. :bag:



Anyway, not to take the piss out of you, I agree. If RPGs give you a chubby then PS3 all the way. Shooters? 360.

Regardless, there is a 360 vs PS3 thread elsewhere ...

I was just saying that I don't see the 360 bowing out anytime soon ... even in the face of "White Knight Story"!!11!!FEAR!!!! ;)

Resistance 2 is going to pull a huge percentage of the shooter demographic to the PS3. 2 campaigns, 8 player co-op, 64 player online, online specific co-op campaign missions.

It's hard to argue that White Knight Story isn't AAA when the 360's "AAA" line-up includes Fable 2.

[Hack&Lube]

Indeed.

Makes me wonder about the people who claim they end up getting the red ring of death multiple times. Perhaps they shouldn't be playing with the Xbox wrapped in a blanket while stacked on top of their cable converter.

Heat is the primary cause of all Xbox issues (the other being the DVD drive). Place it on a cool surface away from other electronics and in area where it can breath. Shouldn't experience a single issue assuming the ambient temperature doesn't hit 56 degrees Celsius.

I'm more worried about the disc drive on my Xbox then the board over heating. I've played Gears of War and Halo3 for 5 hour stints before, then felt the machine. My Macbook puts out more heat then what I felt.

The outside of the box is not an accurate way to tell how hot it is getting. The GPU may be exceeding 100º celsius with no active cooling directly on the components inside the Xbox, it's just a giant passive heatsink with a few heatpipes. Really not enough for the amount of heat generated by that hardware. I can touch the outside of my computer and it feels cool to the touch but my temperature sensors show the CPU is hitting 60º and the GPU is sometimes doing closer to 80º. Have you ever wondered why the PS3 is designed as a big giant speed-bump compared to the sleeker PS2? It's for room for heatsinks and cooling.

[JayP]

Makes me wonder about the people who claim they end up getting the red ring of death multiple times. Perhaps they shouldn't be playing with the Xbox wrapped in a blanket while stacked on top of their cable converter.

Heat is the primary cause of all Xbox issues (the other being the DVD drive). Place it on a cool surface away from other electronics and in area where it can breath. Shouldn't experience a single issue assuming the ambient temperature doesn't hit 56 degrees Celsius.

People start wrapping their systems in towels AFTER they get the RROD. Yes, it only compounds the problems, but that doesn't change the fact that the problems were there before people decide to go with makeshift solutions.

It's hard to argue that it's the users fault when you look at the ridiculous failure rates. If it was the PS3 and Wii would have much higher failure rates than they do.

[llama64]

While I curse MS and fling feces in their general direction over the RROD, I have to say that them releasing X360 ahead of PS3 was a great strategic decision. Gave them the lead this time round.

X360 is also their platform into digital home media... I think we'll be seeing some hardware add ons to get them into the digital media sales/rentals realm soon, a la Apple TV. That's too much of a market to ignore for that behemoth. No way do they bail out of the console market.

If Microsoft can get it's video store loaded faster then iTunes in Canada, I think it will become a great feature to Xbox Live. One I would certainly use often.

Thing is, neither Microsoft or Apple have been able to fill their Canadian stores with anything decent making both products pointless. The Apple TV in particular.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Indeed.

Makes me wonder about the people who claim they end up getting the red ring of death multiple times. Perhaps they shouldn't be playing with the Xbox wrapped in a blanket while stacked on top of their cable converter.

Heat is the primary cause of all Xbox issues (the other being the DVD drive). Place it on a cool surface away from other electronics and in area where it can breath. Shouldn't experience a single issue assuming the ambient temperature doesn't hit 56 degrees Celsius.

I'm more worried about the disc drive on my Xbox then the board over heating. I've played Gears of War and Halo3 for 5 hour stints before, then felt the machine. My Macbook puts out more heat then what I felt.

I had my X360 on it's own glass shelf with no components around it with nothing impeding air movement - and it still cratered.

The article confirms that it's the inability to move heat off the GPU and the heatsink fast enough that's causing the solder to break as one of the prime causes. 1st thing I did when I got my new Falcon chipset was to dissassemble it and put Arctic Silver 5 on all the heatsinks, and slap a Talismoon fan on it to increase fan CFM. Time will tell if it's going to make a difference.

Interesting thing from my disassembly - MS has adopted the pennies trick developed by end users. My Falcon X360 had marshmallowy pads attached to the underside of the mobo on the BGA chips.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Looks like it's going to 65nm's all around! Lots of news on the future development of X360 mobo's here...4

http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/digitaljoystick/archives/132014.asp?from=blog_last3


Of course, it doesn't help with those of us stuck with old boards.... hopefully this Falcon board of mine lasts....