HF's poops out another list.

[MrMastodonFarm]

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/articles/10085/hockeys_future_fall2007_organizational_rankings112 0/

These things are always good for a laugh. Just to start I don't care, nor have I ever cared where the Flames finish in their rankings, they are 14th this time which I suppose is pretty good, but that doesn't make me happy or make me sad. My problem with this has always been the complete lack of intelligance and research put into it.

Strengths: While the Flames do not boast the richest overall pipeline in hockey in terms of talent, they might in NHL legacy, with the names "Sutter" (Brett, son of Flames GM Daryl) and "Nystrom" (Eric, son of former Islander Bob) gracing their top 20 prospects. An above-average prospect, Nystrom is a solid left winger. The Flames do also have some solid top-end talent, including former Everett (WHL) netminder Leland Irving (http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/leland_irving). Four of the Flames' top six prospects are centers, with Dustin Boyd (http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/dustin_boyd), Daniel Ryder (http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/daniel_ryder) and Michael Backlund all good bets to be steady contributors at the NHL level. Russian Andrei Taratukhin (http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/andrei_taratukhin) projects as a third or fourth line grinding player with passing skill. Weaknesses: The Flames system is almost bereft of quality defensive talent. Mark Giordano (http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/mark_giordano), the Flames' highest rated defense prospect, recently signed to play in Russia because he could not come to terms with the NHL club on a new contract. Overall, Calgary lacks elite franchise talent. Top five prospects: 1. Dustin Boyd (C), 2. Leland Irving (G), 3. Daniel Ryder (C), 4. Michael Backlund (C), 5. Andrei Taratukhin (C). Key graduates: David Moss (http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/david_moss).

Just mind boggling iggorance in there peice.


Dan Ryder being a good bet to be a contributor at the NHL level... huh? Where have they been...
Taratuhkin and Ryder in the top 5
Saying the system is bereft of defensive prospect yet no Negrin mentioned, who along with Pelech has top 4 potential.The fact they say Calgary lacks elite franchise talent like that is out of the norm is fairly embaressing for them IMO. Very few teams have elite talent in their prospect pool. No one in their teams ranked 11-30 have a true elite franchise player. That's fairly normal.

[dustygoon]

Funny...i thought Irving still played for Everett

[Resolute 14]

Doesn't look like they published it yet, but I can't say I'm terribly surprised that Guy Flaming put the Oilers in the top ten, yet again. For a team so deep in prospects pretty much since HF was founded, I am amazed at how little success the orgnaization has had...

[Reggie Dunlop]

I heard Oilers VP Kevin Pendergast bought a 7-11 burrito, named it "Wayne" and ated it.

When Guy Flaming "caught wind" of it, he gave it a 6.5B rating. Then the debate raged between Oilers bloggers as to whether it was a "soft" or a "hard" fart.

The whole Hockey's Future ratings thing has always been little more than an exercise in digital flatulence. It can't really be taken seriously.

[Alter Haudegen]

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/articles/10085/hockeys_future_fall2007_organizational_rankings112 0/

These things are always good for a laugh. Just to start I don't care, nor have I ever cared where the Flames finish in their rankings, they are 14th this time which I suppose is pretty good, but that doesn't make me happy or make me sad. My problem with this has always been the complete lack of intelligance and research put into it.



Just mind boggling iggorance in there peice.


Dan Ryder being a good bet to be a contributor at the NHL level... huh? Where have they been...
Taratuhkin and Ryder in the top 5
Saying the system is bereft of defensive prospect yet no Negrin mentioned, who along with Pelech has top 4 potential.The fact they say Calgary lacks elite franchise talent like that is out of the norm is fairly embaressing for them IMO. Very few teams have elite talent in their prospect pool. No one in their teams ranked 11-30 have a true elite franchise player. That's fairly normal.

From what I've read the deadline for the rankings was before the start of the season. Hence Ryder and Tarathukin in the top five, no Negrin or no Bowman for Carolina and so on.
Even more useless than usual this ranking.

[Reggie Dunlop]

From what I've read the deadline for the rankings was before the start of the season. Hence Ryder and Tarathukin in the top five, no Negrin or no Bowman for Carolina and so on.

What a cop-out. Merely an excuse for lack of diligence. Some teams' writers are constantly tweaking player profiles and re-jig the ratings seemingly on whim. This while other team pages feature material literally years out of date (due to indifference). I guess Keeners rule over there, so naturally that is reflected in the rankings.

I mean, why use the internet as a medium if you aren't willing to incorporate timeliness into your writing? All this is supposed to is a snapshot from where an organization supposedly sat in September? Why? Did the galleys need to be proofed before being linotyped and then rotogravured? (Yes, I'm using archaic terms for old technology here, just to highlight the ridiculousness of the argument). Hell, even the Hockey News is more up-to-date nowadays.

But hey, whatever... They've got their schtick and I suppose they'll continue to do whatever it is that they do. They can answer for it. To me, they are to legitimate hockey scouting as Eklund is to legitimate reportage.

I just find it hilarious when the odd drive-by Oiler fan ambles over here, cites the HockeysFuture rankings as somehow authoritative, and frames their arguments as such.

[Resolute 14]

Gotta agree with that. If HF can't be bothered to update their projections accordingly, three months after they did their "study", then they render their entire purpose meaninless.

Things like this are why HF is a legend in its own mind, and fairly heavily mocked most everywhere else.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Things like this are why HF is a legend in its own mind, and fairly heavily mocked most everywhere else.

How would you otherwise explain the meteoric rise from 29th to 16th place except as a painfully arbitrary attempt to curry favor from Flames fans (who otherwise avoid that site by the drove)?

But like MrMastdonFarm states, it's really immaterial where the organization ranks. HF, a juicebox, a cookie and a blanky gets you nappytime.

[HFPM]

Doesn't look like they published it yet, but I can't say I'm terribly surprised that Guy Flaming put the Oilers in the top ten, yet again. For a team so deep in prospects pretty much since HF was founded, I am amazed at how little success the orgnaization has had...

Come on, now. You're sure that at least 2 or 3 of the teams from 11-20 have better depth? I think it should be established that being touted as a "be all end all" prospect does not guarantee success. Just look at teams like Detroit who sign undrafted free-agents and excel in the late rounds of the draft. All these rankings are doing is ranking who has the best prospect depth, not who has the best young players.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Yay! We have our first Oilers fan descending from the mount defending the tablets.

What took so long?

[HFPM]

Apparently, the Homer Express ran out of fuel around Innisfail and then managed hit a parked car on the Deerfoot.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Apparently, the Homer Express ran out of fuel around Innisfail and then managed hit a parked car on the Deerfoot.

LOL! Oh, now that's rich!

This site doesn't purport to be anything more than a Calgary Flames fan forum.

HockeysFuture, despite panoplistic appearances, skews naturally to that of its most populous fanbases. To think otherwise is naive.

The place is near-fellatial in its Oilers coverage. Pretty easy to see that when you have morons like Lowetide running amok over there.

[HFPM]

LOL! Oh, now that's rich!

This site doesn't purport to be anything more than a Calgary Flames fan forum.

HockeysFuture, despite panoplistic appearances, skews naturally to that of its most populous fanbases. To think otherwise is naive.

The place is near-fellatial in its Oilers coverage. Pretty easy to see that when you have morons like Lowetide running amok over there.

I'll give you your first point. If the Habs were anywhere out of the Top 10, that site would implode. I do find them a little homerish in regards to some of prospects, but there are quite a few that get overlooked. I haven't read enough of Lowetide to judge him, but he definitely doesn't "run amok" like he maybe did 2-3 years ago.

[Reggie Dunlop]

I do find them a little homerish in regards to some of prospects, but there are quite a few that get overlooked.

Well, obviously its in over its head in terms of its stated mandate to be "The #1 Online Prospects Resource." Although, to be charitable, it isn't for a lack of trying. It just can't be all things to all people. The result of which has devolved into a whole lot of genital measuring contests, unfortunately.

Despite having a devoted forum for Flames prospects (a fairly recent development, BTW), I think the perspective here is a lot more tempered if a little too critical. Nature of the beast, I suppose. Accusations of CalgaryPuck hype are laughable. It's the height of audacity to suggest discussion of Flames prospects on a Flames prospects forum constitutes hype.

Like I've said before. They have their schtick and CalgaryPuck has its.

Popular perceptions are such that Oilers or Habs prospects enter the fold as torchbearers of some sort of Perpetual Dynastic Continuum in deference to a glorious past whereas Flames draftees are automatically dismissed as busts until proven otherwise (and often begrudgingly so). Obviously, neither stereotype is accurate.

[Resolute 14]

Come on, now. You're sure that at least 2 or 3 of the teams from 11-20 have better depth? I think it should be established that being touted as a "be all end all" prospect does not guarantee success. Just look at teams like Detroit who sign undrafted free-agents and excel in the late rounds of the draft. All these rankings are doing is ranking who has the best prospect depth, not who has the best young players.

Until I see How many A++++ prospects Flaming has awarded the Oilers, I really can't comment. The statement was, however, general commentary rather than anything specific to this year's list. The consistent overrating of the Oilers is well known, and is a direct result of having an Oilers fan do the ratings. I wouldn't expect most Flames fans to be any more objective wrt the Flames prospect stable. Undoubtedly the other writers at HF overrate their team's prospects consistently as well. Mr. Flaming is simply the most obvious target here, for obvious reasons.

And that, really, is the biggest reason why these lists are of little more value than as virtual birdcage lining. The compete lack of independent coverage. Giving fanbois a platform to write about their teams doesn't grant their opinions any more weight than those of the people posting on the forums. The respect level the HF editorial staff receives outside of HF reflects this.

[Phanuthier]

Wow, what a list. The title is a bit misleading - when I said "poops out" I had a little higher expectations. ;)

[MelBridgeman]

hockey future? nothing but a bunch of couch scouts...there track record is terrible...just look at their historical bashing of the Avs...

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

I don't see how the Oilers can be top 10 right now. They have some good young players in their organization but they're all pretty much on the team now - Gilbert, Cogliano, Gagner, Nilsson.

They have some solid defence prospects in Alex Plante, Jeff Petry and Taylor Chorney who could be top 4 but aside from Schremp (and maybe Linus Omark) I can't see any forward in the organization not currently on the team that has the potential to be a future top six. Even Riley Nash is projected to be a third line forward by Prendergast himself (a good one, but still a third liner).

It's not a bad crop of prospects but definitely not top 10.

[Reggie Dunlop]

I don't see how the Oilers can be top 10 right now. They have some good young players in their organization but they're all pretty much on the team now - Gilbert, Cogliano, Gagner, Nilsson.

They have some solid defence prospects in Alex Plante, Jeff Petry and Taylor Chorney who could be top 4 but aside from Schremp (and maybe Linus Omark) I can't see any forward in the organization not currently on the team that has the potential to be a future top six. Even Riley Nash is projected to be a third line forward by Prendergast himself (a good one, but still a third liner).

It's not a bad crop of prospects but definitely not top 10.

Prendergrast himself might as well be writing the profiles for the Oilers prospects, because Guy Flaming is little more than a glorified stenographer covering the team. The Oilers could save themselves a whack of moolah sacking their PR department when there's eager volunteers chomping at the bit.

Organizations obviously are going to project high hopes for their handiwork (or at least publicly project the positives). Taking all that at face value is, of course, up to the fans if they wish to do so. It doesn't, however, make for good journalism nor "independent" talent evaluation.

Is Hockey's Future supposed to be a scouting resource, a journalistic undertaking, or a fan site? I think it fails at the first two and is reluctant to admit to the third (which is its true identity).

[Eric Vail]

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/articles/10085/hockeys_future_fall2007_organizational_rankings112 0/

These things are always good for a laugh. Just to start I don't care, nor have I ever cared where the Flames finish in their rankings, they are 14th this time which I suppose is pretty good, but that doesn't make me happy or make me sad. My problem with this has always been the complete lack of intelligance and research put into it.



Just mind boggling iggorance in there peice.


Dan Ryder being a good bet to be a contributor at the NHL level... huh? Where have they been...
Taratuhkin and Ryder in the top 5
Saying the system is bereft of defensive prospect yet no Negrin mentioned, who along with Pelech has top 4 potential.The fact they say Calgary lacks elite franchise talent like that is out of the norm is fairly embaressing for them IMO. Very few teams have elite talent in their prospect pool. No one in their teams ranked 11-30 have a true elite franchise player. That's fairly normal.

Excuse me for being behind on the prospect talk. Dan Ryder once was the OHL playoff player of the year and looked like an excellent prospect. What has he done to fall so far he can not reasonably be considered for the top five prospects with the Flames?

[Reggie Dunlop]

Excuse me for being behind on the prospect talk. Dan Ryder once was the OHL playoff player of the year and looked like an excellent prospect. What has he done to fall so far he can not reasonably be considered for the top five prospects with the Flames?

Dude quit playing the sport.

Choosing to not play hockey usually kills most hockey careers.

[Eric Vail]

Wow! I can't believe that a guy like that would up and quit. He certainly had a great shot at an NHL career, and if not, he certainly could have played for many years and earned decent money in the AHL.

Any reports as to why he quit? Is there a thread that explains all this?

[Reggie Dunlop]

Well, the good news is that "Eklund" is apparently getting into the prospects rating racket....

Wow, you missed out on the Ryder debacle?

[Eric Vail]

I rarely come over into the prospects forum. I remember he didn't come to the prospects camp, and some were concerned. I didn't hear much after that.

[Oil Stain]

I don't see how the Oilers can be top 10 right now. They have some good young players in their organization but they're all pretty much on the team now - Gilbert, Cogliano, Gagner, Nilsson.

Because players are still counted as prospects until they have played 65 NHL games according to HF standards.

[calgARI]

Even Riley Nash is projected to be a third line forward by Prendergast himself (a good one, but still a third liner).


Not to move off topic or anything, but it really baffles me that Nash is projected as a third liner. I have watched him every game this year and have been following the college level my whole life and I can say without hesitation that he has a top six upside in the NHL. His skill level and ability to think the game are both beyond exceptional for the college game. His coach from Salmon Arm described him as a Travis Zajac with better skating and more competitiveness. He coached Zajac at the same age so I trust his opinion on it. Zajac is certainly projected to be a top six forward in the NHL.

[SebC]

His coach from Salmon Arm described him as a Travis Zajac with better skating and more competitiveness.:w00t:

That's quite the compliment... as Zajac's quite the speedster.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Not to move off topic or anything, but it really baffles me that Nash is projected as a third liner. I have watched him every game this year and have been following the college level my whole life and I can say without hesitation that he has a top six upside in the NHL. His skill level and ability to think the game are both beyond exceptional for the college game. His coach from Salmon Arm described him as a Travis Zajac with better skating and more competitiveness. He coached Zajac at the same age so I trust his opinion on it. Zajac is certainly projected to be a top six forward in the NHL.

You would definitely know better than me. I always found it odd for a team to draft someone in the first round that they immediately project as a third liner. Perhaps he's tempering expectations?

[calgARI]

You would definitely know better than me. I always found it odd for a team to draft someone in the first round that they immediately project as a third liner. Perhaps he's tempering expectations?

Maybe tempering a little bit but I think it also relates to the fact that he has a long way to go to make the NHL. I would be shocked if he were at Cornell for four years but I think his game needs to develop in certain areas, specifically that he needs to fill out his upper body significantly. Based on the type of player he is, if he makes the NHL, it will be as a top six forward. I just don't see him having value on a 3rd line - it just doesn't suit his game. He has outstanding hockey sense and really good puck skills particularly in tight. When he gets the puck, he slows everything down and really dictates what happens on the offense - pretty unique player who I think will be an impact NHLer in a scoring role. His hockey sense is just that strong. I do think it will be 2-3 years at Cornell and then 2-3 years in the AHL before being a full time NHLer. That's what they said about Zajac though and he made the jump right from college after two years.

[Guy Flaming]

I heard Oilers VP Kevin Pendergast bought a 7-11 burrito, named it "Wayne" and ated it.

When Guy Flaming "caught wind" of it, he gave it a 6.5B rating. Then the debate raged between Oilers bloggers as to whether it was a "soft" or a "hard" fart.


Good stuff! :)

For the record, outside of a vote on the ranking, I had zippo to do with this particular ranking. I wasn't on the committee this time around nor did I do any of the write ups.

Cheers!

Guy Flaming
host/producer
The Pipeline Show
TEAM 1260 Edmonton

[Reggie Dunlop]

For the record, outside of a vote on the ranking, I had zippo to do with this particular ranking. I wasn't on the committee this time around nor did I do any of the write ups.

I think it's been made abundantly clear that the rankings (and the order) are largely inconsequential. This has been borne out over time, something obviously lost on those who nonetheless continue on their merry way.

[Guy Flaming]

I think it's been made abundantly clear that the rankings (and the order) are largely inconsequential. This has been borne out over time, something obviously lost on those who nonetheless continue on their merry way.

OK, terrific. I was responding more to those that were bringing me up by name. There's been a few suggestions that an overwhelming Oiler bias exists and if so, I'm to blame and therefore everything HF does is to be ignored. I was pointing out that I had little to do with this particular ranking. I only quoted your post because I chuckled.

[rubecube]

OK, terrific. I was responding more to those that were bringing me up by name. There's been a few suggestions that an overwhelming Oiler bias exists and if so, I'm to blame and therefore everything HF does is to be ignored. I was pointing out that I had little to do with this particular ranking. I only quoted your post because I chuckled.

I think they were bringing you up by name only for example purposes, but I'll admit I didn't read the entire thread. It'd be like a Grease fan using Kerr or Maher as an example.

[Reggie Dunlop]

OK, terrific. I was responding more to those that were bringing me up by name. There's been a few suggestions that an overwhelming Oiler bias exists and if so, I'm to blame and therefore everything HF does is to be ignored. I was pointing out that I had little to do with this particular ranking. I only quoted your post because I chuckled.

Well, I think your ubiquitous presence has definitely left its greasy thumbprints. The template continues.

But really, the issue is not where the Oilers stable sits (nor even in relation to the comparative Flames), but that the methodology is significantly flawed with the inherent bias typical of any fan-produced effort.

[Guy Flaming]

Just out of curiosity... what did Lowetide ever do to set you guys off? He's pretty much down the middle of the road and takes more than his fair share of pokes at Oiler prospects, players, coaches, me... I thought you'd be a fan of his work.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Just out of curiosity... what did Lowetide ever do to set you guys off? He's pretty much down the middle of the road and takes more than his fair share of pokes at Oiler prospects, players, coaches, me... I thought you'd be a fan of his work.

Suffice it to say detailed critiques would be better addressed at the source as opposed to an inter-fora war.

He was mentioned here in passing. But like I have said, everybody has their own schtick.