Leland Irving's Development

[Ranchlander]

I understand this kid is going to take some time, but it seems he hasn't made some of the strides that other young goalies have made in the past few years (e.g. Price, Bernier). What are everyones thoughts on him stealing the starting position from Bernier?

I wouldn't be surprised if one of the other kids steals one of the other jobs and he gets sent home. He's still got alot of time to prove himself, but I just can't help myself from fearing he'll be the next Devan Dubnyk.

[Harbourmouth]

Irving isn't going to make Team Canada.

[icarus]

Well Brent Krahn suffered setbacks after being drafted by the Flames in the 1st round and he is still a quality prospect (unfortunately he is an injury magnet).

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Well Price was a top 5 pick in the draft, Irving was much later. So that isn't a particularly fair comparison. If you're taking a goalie top 5, he'd better be amazing.

If he wasn't even invited to camp that might be a bit worrying. But if he ends up not being considered one of the top 2 goalies in Canada, that doesn't mean much for his career.

What reasoning is behind your comparison to Dubnyk? Is that based on anything more than a bad gut feeling (aka no reason)?

[MrMastodonFarm]

I understand this kid is going to take some time, but it seems he hasn't made some of the strides that other young goalies have made in the past few years (e.g. Price, Bernier). What are everyones thoughts on him stealing the starting position from Bernier? .
He hasn't made the strides other young goalies have? And you name Bernier? Wow.

He outplayed Bernier to win the backup role to Team Canada just a year ago this month, and outplayed Bernier and Mason at the Super Series in the summer.

What are you talking about?

[Ranchlander]

Well Price was a top 5 pick in the draft, Irving was much later. So that isn't a particularly fair comparison. If you're taking a goalie top 5, he'd better be amazing.

If he wasn't even invited to camp that might be a bit worrying. But if he ends up not being considered one of the top 2 goalies in Canada, that doesn't mean much for his career.

What reasoning is behind your comparison to Dubnyk? Is that based on anything more than a bad gut feeling (aka no reason)?

Dubnyk has been sliding ever since he got drafted. Like Irving he's still young, but I don't like the direction either of them have gone since they got drafted. However, they both still have lots of time to make up for it.

[Drunk Skunk]

I understand this kid is going to take some time, but it seems he hasn't made some of the strides that other young goalies have made in the past few years (e.g. Price, Bernier). What are everyones thoughts on him stealing the starting position from Bernier?

I wouldn't be surprised if one of the other kids steals one of the other jobs and he gets sent home. He's still got alot of time to prove himself, but I just can't help myself from fearing he'll be the next Devan Dubnyk.
Price's numbers from his last year in juniors aren't that much better then Irving's are right now. Price was 2.45 and .917, and currently Irving is 2.71 and .904 after a pretty slow start.

[Romanrules]

He hasn't made the strides other young goalies have? And you name Bernier? Wow.

He outplayed Bernier to win the backup role to Team Canada just a year ago this month, and outplayed Bernier and Mason at the Super Series in the summer.

What are you talking about?

I would say Bernier and Mason outplayed Irving then. Irving's best game was the last one. Bernier and Mason were standing on their heads in their starts.

[FlamesAddiction]

When Irving was drafted, he was said to be several years from the NHL. I think he is going to develop like most goalies do - very slowly.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Dubnyk has been sliding ever since he got drafted. Like Irving he's still young, but I don't like the direction either of them have gone since they got drafted. However, they both still have lots of time to make up for it.

After Irving got drafted he had an outstanding year.

He's off to a slower start this year, but he's still really, really young........and a goalie, so he should be a couple/few years away anyways.

Not too worried over here.

[Alter Haudegen]

I would say Bernier and Mason outplayed Irving then. Irving's best game was the last one. Bernier and Mason were standing on their heads in their starts.

Funny how people seem to forget the incredible soft goals that Mason let in (goal two in game one or goal two in game seven).

[Canada 02]

Hockey Canada loves their returning players. I bet, he not only makes the team, but starts most of the games

[MrMastodonFarm]

Funny how people seem to forget the incredible soft goals that Mason let in (goal two in game one or goal two in game seven).
Also the fact that Irving got the last start of the series, game seven because he was the best of the three.

Irving - 3 Games
Mason - Two
Bernier - Two

No doubt in my mind Irving was the best goalie for Canada in that series. It's amazing how whenever he's went head-to-head with these guys he has come out on top, yet apparently they always outplay him. Just bizarre.

[STeeLy]

If Irving makes the team and gets most of the starts, it might be a giant confidence booster for him (unless he craps the bed and gets pulled... then it just shoots his confidence through the ground)

[Alter Haudegen]

Also the fact that Irving got the last start of the series, game seven because he was the best of the three.

Irving - 3 Games
Mason - Two
Bernier - Two

No doubt in my mind Irving was the best goalie for Canada in that series. It's amazing how whenever he's went head-to-head with these guys he has come out on top, yet apparently they always outplay him. Just bizarre.

Actually this had nothing to do with who was best. :)
According to Brent Sutter Irving got the start in game eight as a thank-you from filling the back-up goaltender role to Carey Price at the 2007 World Junior Championships.

[JiriHrdina]

Dubnyk has been sliding ever since he got drafted. Like Irving he's still young, but I don't like the direction either of them have gone since they got drafted. However, they both still have lots of time to make up for it.

What?

Irving was fantastic last year. Period. It's not like his play slipped after being drafted, in the season following.

He's had not as good a season so far this year, but hardly any reason whatsoever to be concerned.

How much have you even seen him play?

EDIT: I reazlie KFF made the same points, but they bare repeating.

[Cerebral]

It's next to impossible to get a read on young goaltenders until they have at least played two or three years professionally (and in most cases, that is still far too early). Look at Jeff Drouin-Deslauriers from the Oilers - the kid was hyped up beyond belief on draft day yet his stock dropped for some reason and he ended up falling to the 2nd round. He struggled with injuries early in his career and he didn't even start more than 13 games in the AHL until last year (when he was 22 years old).

Fast forward to this season and he's finally healthy and suddenly putting up very good numbers for Springfield in the AHL. He was widely considered a bust last season and now many are starting to have hope that he can carve out a career at the NHL level.

The same story can be seen with numerous goaltenders across the league. Goaltending is probably the most difficult position to evaluate and it's not surprising that a majority of the starting goaltenders in the league today emerge as legit NHL starters on a different team than the one that drafted them.

When it comes to goalies, there's one word that means everything: Patience. Very few goaltenders emerge as legit NHL players early in their professional career and thus you need to show patience when it comes to their development. I personally felt Irving was a little overrated due to the stifling defensive system in Everett that he played under for the previous two seasons but he's still a very sound technical goaltender and he has a great attitude which is always key. He's not Carey Price but very few goalies are.

[604flames]

I have only seen him play live once this year, and he didn't even make it to the ten minute mark so I can't really judge him based on the one shaky effort that I saw.

That said, Everett returned a lot of their defence from last year (Crowley, Ellington, Harty, Potuer to name a few), but the team as a whole have been really slow out of the gate. It could have something to do with the fact that they have a new coach this year too, but the 'Tips fans I chatted with after the game ten days ago seemed to think that a 7-0 drubbing in Vancouver was what they needed to wake up.

[dustygoon]

Not sure why Sutter signed Irving a year before he needed. A lot can happen in that year including injuries and it means his entry level deal will mature a year earlier (i think...can anyone confirm that?). I know entry level contracts are formula based to some extent, but i think signing Irving now rather than a year ago would be at a lower price.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Not sure why Sutter signed Irving a year before he needed. A lot can happen in that year including injuries and it means his entry level deal will mature a year earlier (i think...can anyone confirm that?). I know entry level contracts are formula based to some extent, but i think signing Irving now rather than a year ago would be at a lower price.
No, it wouldn't be a lower price

No, it does not mean his entry level contract will mature a year earlier.

[MrMastodonFarm]

According to Brent Sutter Irving got the start in game eight as a thank-you from filling the back-up goaltender role to Carey Price at the 2007 World Junior Championships.
Meh, he was better. He had more starts, and didn't get pulled or give up any wonky goals like the other two did. He also played better in his start in the Russian Select series several weeks ago.

[looooob]

When it comes to goalies, there's one word that means everything: Patience. .
word

heck look at Pascal Leclaire

[Matata]

I remember Irving blaiming his slipping play on the fact he was accustomed to playing, and playing very well, at a high level in the Summit series. When he came back, he had a hard time adjusting to the slower paced games.

Irving doesn't need to be ready for 5 years anyway, not concerned.

[dustygoon]

No, it wouldn't be a lower price

No, it does not mean his entry level contract will mature a year earlier.

So entry level contracts are fixed? I didn't know that. You sign for X....nothing higher and nothing lower? Pretty sure only a max applies.

As for length...they signed him to a 3 year deal. Those between 18 and 21 sign for 3 year entry level deals then are free to sign for whatever after that. His contract was signed in Jan/07. Why not wait a year then sign him to a 3 year?

[MrMastodonFarm]

So entry level contracts are fixed? I didn't know that. You sign for X....nothing higher and nothing lower? Pretty sure only a max applies.
He'll get the same money because of where he was drafted. That doesn't change. He was drafted late in the first round, so he'll get that type of money regardless of his play last year, or this year. It wouldn't have changed even if his play slipped a little from one year to the next. Nor if it improved.


As for length...they signed him to a 3 year deal. Those between 18 and 21 sign for 3 year entry level deals then are free to sign for whatever after that. His contract was signed in Jan/07. Why not wait a year then sign him to a 3 year?
Why not just get it done ASAP?

The first year of that deal kicks in during his first pro season. Dion Phaneuf is in the third year of a three year deal he signed 4 years ago.

[dustygoon]

He'll get the same money because of where he was drafted. That doesn't change. He was drafted late in the first round, so he'll get that type of money regardless of his play last year, or this year. It wouldn't have changed even if his play slipped a little from one year to the next. Nor if it improved.


Why not just get it done ASAP?

The first year of that deal kicks in during his first pro season. Dion Phaneuf is in the third year of a three year deal he signed 4 years ago.

So the deal kicks in during his first year of pro regardless of when signed prior to pro? Makes sense to do it early if you are planning to pay the max then, as the max goes up a bit each year. But he may or may not get the same money.....he picked up a groin injury which may be lingering and affecting his play. These things can linger and be recurring. Just saying that maybe there is a lower price to pay based on play, injury, etc. That is why you don't get it done ASAP.

[looooob]

That is why you don't get it done ASAP.
I think there was more waiting and posturing under the old CBA

for a guy like Irving, a late first rounder, who already has a good CV, his price is almost certainly not going up or down at this point. I think we'll find with time most first rounders will get things done fairly early...unlike the old days where there was a game of chicken up to the re-entry point sometimes

[Sylvanfan]

So the deal kicks in during his first year of pro regardless of when signed prior to pro? Makes sense to do it early if you are planning to pay the max then, as the max goes up a bit each year. But he may or may not get the same money.....he picked up a groin injury which may be lingering and affecting his play. These things can linger and be recurring. Just saying that maybe there is a lower price to pay based on play, injury, etc. That is why you don't get it done ASAP.


NHL teams have two years from when they draft a player to sign him. The actual contract does not count until the player plays a year of professional hockey, so the Flames will still have three years left on Irvings entry level deal when he does turn pro which will likely be next season. So his contract will be valid for the 08-09, 09-10, & 10-11 seasons.

The benefit to doing it now is that I believe the signing bonuses go against the cap for the season that the contract was signed (06-07). The player likes it because he gets his signing bonus sooner than later, and the NHL team doesn't have to worry about the player not signing and re-entering the draft. The risk is that if Irving suffers a career ending injury than the team would be on the hook to pay him.

[Ranchlander]

He hasn't made the strides other young goalies have? And you name Bernier? Wow.

He outplayed Bernier to win the backup role to Team Canada just a year ago this month, and outplayed Bernier and Mason at the Super Series in the summer.

What are you talking about?

Except Bernier started off the year in the NHL as a starter and had several stellar games, while Irving has had a subpar year in the WHL. I seem to remember Irving and Mason letting in a couple very ugly goals in that series, whereas Bernier was a lot more solid. Its his job to lose this year.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Except Bernier started off the year in the NHL as a starter and had several stellar games, while Irving has had a subpar year in the WHL. I seem to remember Irving and Mason letting in a couple very ugly goals in that series, whereas Bernier was a lot more solid. Its his job to lose this year.
It's everyone's job to lose. Whoever plays the best in camp, will get it.

Bernier started off the year in the NHL because his NHL team is the fricken LA Kings. There is little doubt in my mind that if Irving or Mason were the property of the kings, they would have been given several starts as well, and would have looked good in at least one of them too. That really doesn't concern me at all.

[Tilley]

When Bernier was returned to Lewiston by the Kings he struggled initially as well. Similar to Irving when he returned to Everett, when a goalie has experienced a higher level of shooter they adjust and therefore it takes time to readjust to the slower pace of play in junior.

Bernier's first 10 games in Lewiston:
5W--4L--1ND--31Goals Allowed--269 Shots--88.5 Save %

Season to date Stats:
Bernier 15 GP--7W--7L--2.95GAA--90.3 Save%
Irving 27GP--13W--11L--2.71--90.4 Save %

I agree with MMF, the goalies that are the best in camp should be on the team, not the goalie with the most NHL experience, or WJC experience; the ones that are playing at the highest levels in this camp.

[Sylvanfan]

Except Bernier started off the year in the NHL as a starter and had several stellar games, while Irving has had a subpar year in the WHL. I seem to remember Irving and Mason letting in a couple very ugly goals in that series, whereas Bernier was a lot more solid. Its his job to lose this year.

If Irving was Kings property he might have made that team out of camp. Besides Bernier played one and a half really good games with the Kings and the wheels fell off. Everitt has undergone a lot of changes this year in terms of system. Kevin Constantine isnt' there anymore which has really changed the style they play. In fact this year the difference between Irvings GAA and Sv.% compared to his backup is much higher than it was the past two years. I think that should indicate that the rise in his numbers isn't entirely based on his play. He struggled at the start of the season but has been much better since about mid October.

Also worth noting is that Bernier was a #11 overall pick and Irving was #26. Bernier was the first goalie selected in the 2006 draft whereas Irving was the 4th. So really Bernier should be the better goaltender. Had the Flames taken Irving 11th and passed on the other 3 guys....maybe your arguement would hold water. Right now, it's sort of grasping.

[Cerebral]

Did anyone go see the Red/White game tonight? My dad said Irving let in an incredibly soft goal that led to his team's defeat but I wasn't there and I haven't seen any highlights yet.

[I wanna be like Miikka]

Did anyone go see the Red/White game tonight? My dad said Irving let in an incredibly soft goal that led to his team's defeat but I wasn't there and I haven't seen any highlights yet.

Im not sure but I thought Irvings team won today

EDIT: Yes he was on team white, bernier stops 11 of 12 shots and Irving stops 10 of 11 shots.

[Cerebral]

Im not sure but I thought Irvings team won today

EDIT: Yes he was on team white, bernier stops 11 of 12 shots and Irving stops 10 of 11 shots.
Ahh, I must have my teams mixed up then. Well, one of the goaltenders let in a ridiculously weak goal tonight - my dad thought it was Irving but he might be off his rocker. :D

[koop]

Ahh, I must have my teams mixed up then. Well, one of the goaltenders let in a ridiculously weak goal tonight - my dad thought it was Irving but he might be off his rocker. :D

No, it was Irving. I saw it on sportsnet this morning I think his team still won but they showed the goal and it was really weak.

[Harbourmouth]

Did anyone go see the Red/White game tonight? My dad said Irving let in an incredibly soft goal that led to his team's defeat but I wasn't there and I haven't seen any highlights yet.

I was there. Sexsmith let in the garbage goal, not Irving.

[Reggie Dunlop]

I think that if, for some reason, Irving is not on the World Junior team, the more important factor is how he responds. As already mentioned, past examples in the goaltending position run the gamut of NHL all-stars to ne'er-do-wells.

A guy like Irving has overcome some pretty big life obstacles at a tender age, and certainly has challenges facing him in the future (as all prospects do).

[Reggie Dunlop]

Seriously, anyone who expected Leland Irving to maintain a lofty 1.86 Goals Against Average as a career standard (even within the confines of the WHL) is going to be disappointed. It's really no more indicative than his current numbers (which aren't really that awful).

He has,more or less, bounced back after a rocky start. Developing consistency is a process still ongoing and completely expected in a 20 year old goaltender.

Obviously, being picked 24th overall does bring expectations. That's the challenge he faces, and I guess we'll find out where he stacks up after a few seasons of pro.

[dustygoon]

Seriously, anyone who expected Leland Irving to maintain a lofty 1.86 Goals Against Average as a career standard (even within the confines of the WHL) is going to be disappointed.

I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a 1st round drafted goalie to have a sub 2.0 WHL aggregated average. He should be excelling in his class. And he isn't. bouncing back to really a better-than-average-but-not-quite-pro level (in my mind) is not good enough. He is a long ways a way so not too big a deal. He can fall off the radar for a while and come back and be a starting goaltender still.

[Cerebral]

Irving let in three goals in a 4-0 loss tonight. I didn't see the goals and the camp certainly isn't the only factor when it comes to picking the team but you would have to suspect that Irving is a long-shot at this point to make it. Like I said back when the Super Series was in full swing, Mason and Bernier are likely going to be Canada's goaltenders at this year's WJCs.

[looooob]

I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a 1st round drafted goalie to have a sub 2.0 WHL aggregated average. He should be excelling in his class. And he isn't. bouncing back to really a better-than-average-but-not-quite-pro level (in my mind) is not good enough. He is a long ways a way so not too big a deal. He can fall off the radar for a while and come back and be a starting goaltender still.I'm too lazy or naive to know the answer , but how many goalies (first rounders or not) have sub 2.00 aggregated averages in the WHL? Carey Price was never lower than about 2.35

Irving may be struggling this year, but I"m pretty sure below 2.00 in the CHL is an exception

[Cerebral]

I'm too lazy or naive to know the answer , but how many goalies (first rounders or not) have sub 2.00 aggregated averages in the WHL? Carey Price was never lower than about 2.35

Irving may be struggling this year, but I"m pretty sure below 2.00 in the CHL is an exception
Not many. Individual statistics for goaltenders when it comes to junior hockey are largely overblown. Granted you're not going to feel very comfortable if your future "star" goaltender has a .880 SV% but goaltending success in the CHL has always been primarily team driven.

The same can be said for the NHL to a certain degree but you often get absolute powerhouse teams in the CHL that consequently result in the starting goaltender for that club having unreal statistics (like Jeff Glass in 2004-05 for Kootenay, Leland Irving in 2006-07 for Everett and Justin Pogge in 2005-06 for Calgary).

Some of the best goaltenders to come through the CHL in the last little while haven't posted league-leading stats. A guy like Carey Price never posted a GAA better than 2.34 or a SV % better than .920 but he's now in the NHL. The same can be said for Josh Harding as well.

Posting a GAA under 2.00 in the CHL certainly isn't a prerequisite to being a successful goaltender and I would say it is probably closer to the rare than the norm.

[Tilley]

http://calsun.canoe.ca/Sports/Hockey/2007/12/13/4722311-sun.html

The article states that Bernier let in three goals and Irving was on the hook for one, a goal by Stamkos. Are you sure you and your dad have identified the goaltenders?

[flambers]

Irving has been cut......

http://www.tsn.ca/world_jrs/news_story/?ID=225082&hubname=

[truth14]

That's too bad. It's not the end of the world though.

[Phanuthier]

That's too bad. It's not the end of the world though.
No, it definatly isn't the end of the world. Until someone can give me a fundimental reason why Irving is going to be a bust, all critisism is moot. Irving was drafted off fundimentals in his game, not what he did over 40 games or 50 games or whatever (let alone 20 or so) - so until someone finds something to counterpoint the Flames scouts, I'll take trust the scouts.

[Sylvanfan]

Yeah, it's a tough situation for a goaltender. You basically have a 3 day camp to impress the brass to make the team. Cam Ward was axed from the team and won the Stanley Cup two years later. Like it was mentioned before...the real test will be how Irving responds to this set back. Players will endure slumps and adversity in their career. The ones who really have it to keep moving to the next level always find a way to come back better than before from adverse situations.

[Phanuthier]

Like it was mentioned before...the real test will be how Irving responds to this set back.
Yeah Sylv, and in contrast, after Luongo (or Leclair) which G has done anything int he NHL after playing for TC at the WJC?

Irving beat cancer, I'm quite confident he'll get through this.

[Alter Haudegen]

Yeah, it's a tough situation for a goaltender. You basically have a 3 day camp to impress the brass to make the team. Cam Ward was axed from the team and won the Stanley Cup two years later. Like it was mentioned before...the real test will be how Irving responds to this set back. Players will endure slumps and adversity in their career. The ones who really have it to keep moving to the next level always find a way to come back better than before from adverse situations.

I really hope he responds just like Cam Ward did back in 03/04. Ward had a slow start to the season (just like Irving) but he was absolutely outstanding after being cut for the second year in a row by Hockey Canada. He played like a man on a mission and carried an offensively challenged Rebels team deep into the POs, winning the Four-Bronco-Memorial-Trophy for the WHL's Player of the Year.

[Oil Stain]

No, it definatly isn't the end of the world. Until someone can give me a fundimental reason why Irving is going to be a bust, all critisism is moot. Irving was drafted off fundimentals in his game, not what he did over 40 games or 50 games or whatever (let alone 20 or so) - so until someone finds something to counterpoint the Flames scouts, I'll take trust the scouts.

I think it'll be tough to make any sound judgements on Irving's potential until he gets out of Everett.

It seems like that team does for goalie numbers what the London Knights do for forward numbers.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Irving let in three goals in a 4-0 loss tonight. I didn't see the goals .
Clearly. It was Bernier who let in 3 goals, Irving let in one.

Bernier and Irving were totally left to there own devices yesterday, no help from anyone.

Too bad Irving was cut, but it's really not a big deal, he's a good goalie and I have faith in him moving forward.

[Cerebral]

Clearly. It was Bernier who let in 3 goals, Irving let in one.
Bernier and Irving were totally left to there own devices yesterday, no help from anyone.
Too bad Irving was cut, but it's really not a big deal, he's a good goalie and I have faith in him moving forward. (http://calsun.canoe.ca/Sports/Hockey/2007/12/13/4722311-sun.html)
Sorry if that wasn't true, I was basing it off of what was stated in TSN.ca's article:

http://tsn.ca/world_jrs/news_story/?ID=225070&hubname=world_jrs

[MrMastodonFarm]

I think it'll be tough to make any sound judgements on Irving's potential until he gets out of Everett.
That's kinda true, and kinda BS.

Will you get a better look at him when he is in the AHL? Of course.
Can you get a good read on him now? Yes.

Sure if you just look at the stat sheets you will either walk away gleeming, or walk away thinking it's all the Silvertips. But if you actually watch him play you will fully understand his game. And that will give you a good read on the kid.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Sorry if that wasn't true, I was basing it off of what was stated in TSN.ca's article:

http://tsn.ca/world_jrs/news_story/?ID=225070&hubname=world_jrs

That's a Canadian Press report, which is erroneous. Unfortunately, it was picked up by a number of outlets.

[Hakan]

Probably a good thing for Irving right now.

He's not playing well and this should really focus him in on that. If he can't recover then he would never be an NHL tender in the first place. If he does recover he shows he has what it takes mentally to make it.

I'm not concerned about Irving.

Backlund on the other hand...

[Reggie Dunlop]

That's twice now that Cerebral has misrepresented Leland Irving's performance in this thread. A cynic might think it is deliberate.

Oh, and never mention Jeff Drouin-Deslauriers again. Decidedly average AHL performance (outplayed by Ty Conklin -- Ty Conklin!) is more an example of a failed developmental system as opposed to being held up as a success story.

Jeff Drouin-Deslauriers. Larf.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

I'm not concerned about Irving.

Backlund on the other hand...

Why a concern on Backlund?

[MrMastodonFarm]

That's twice now that Cerebral has misrepresented Leland Irving's performance in this thread. A cynic might think it is deliberate..
It shows what a rush he is in to come over and post "bad" news.

You think if it was Bernier who he thought let in three and Irving who just let in one he would have posted that? No way.

[Oil Stain]

That's kinda true, and kinda BS.

Will you get a better look at him when he is in the AHL? Of course.
Can you get a good read on him now? Yes.

Sure if you just look at the stat sheets you will either walk away gleeming, or walk away thinking it's all the Silvertips. But if you actually watch him play you will fully understand his game. And that will give you a good read on the kid.

Well I assume most of us aren't watching 60 Everett games a year so its pretty hard to get a read on anything except by stats.

In the four games that I have seen him play, I haven't really seen anything that screams bluechipper.

[MrMastodonFarm]

In the four games that I have seen him play, I haven't really seen anything that screams bluechipper.
Who the heck has ever claimed he was a blue chip prospect?

[Oil Stain]

Who the heck has ever claimed he was a blue chip prospect?

Scads of Flames fans and The Hockey News.

[Cerebral]

That's twice now that Cerebral has misrepresented Leland Irving's performance in this thread. A cynic might think it is deliberate.



It shows what a rush he is in to come over and post "bad" news.

You think if it was Bernier who he thought let in three and Irving who just let in one he would have posted that? No way.
Yep, I grabbed the TSN.ca link and figured it was a chance to deliberately mislead Calgary Flame fans. I would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for you meddling kids! :ph34r:

By the way, I was only wrong once - that really bad goal in the first Red/White game was let in by Leland Irving.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Scads of Flames fans and The Hockey News.
Then we have different definitions of bluechipper. Because I don't think I've ever heard anyone say he was a bluechip prospect, Dion Phaneuf potential, on this website or really anywhere.

He is a good prospect, a very good one actually, but he's not a top guy.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Yep, I grabbed the TSN.ca link and figured it was a chance to deliberately mislead Calgary Flame fans.
Didn't say that, you seen it, and posted "bad news" here as fast as you could. That's what you did.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Yep, I grabbed the TSN.ca link and figured it was a chance to deliberately mislead Calgary Flame fans. I would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for you meddling kids! :ph34r:

Well, we're wise to your tricks.

[Cerebral]

Didn't say that, you seen it, and posted "bad news" here as fast as you could. That's what you did.
I was replying to Reg there, I'm not sure why I accidentally quoted you as well.

In regards to me being the harbinger of doom, I would argue that I have never done that all that frequently on this board so I don't know why you're trying to paint me like that. I'm a huge fan of the WJCs and I thought it was big news that Leland Irving let in 3 goals while the other goaltenders all let in one or less. The news report proved to be false but I figured Flames fans would at least want to hear and I don't see why I should be restricted to solely posting pro-Flames news.

[JiriHrdina]

I was replying to Reg there, I'm not sure why I accidentally quoted you as well.

In regards to me being the harbinger of doom, I would argue that I have never done that all that frequently on this board so I don't know why you're trying to paint me like that. I'm a huge fan of the WJCs and I thought it was big news that Leland Irving let in 3 goals while the other goaltenders all let in one or less. The news report proved to be false but I figured Flames fans would at least want to hear and I don't see why I should be restricted to solely posting pro-Flames news.

You aren't but realize when you not once - but twice - get info wrong - in both cases negative info about a prospect - it does have the look of you rushing to post negative press about a Flames prospect.

Certainly I do wonder if Irving had put up a bagel if you would have been as keen to bring us that news.

[Cnumb]

This doesn't really come as much of a surprise to me. Irving has been overrated by many Calgary fans mostly due to his WHL stats, which as I stated around a year ago, don't really mean much given that he plays for the defensive stalwart Everett. Sure, this doesn't mean he is a bust. But it is never good when you cannot perform will against other "NHL" prospects. I think Irving's play in international tournaments, against top-notch competitions, means a lot more then his play in the WHL, considering the defense he plays behind.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Irving has been overrated by many Calgary fans mostly due to his WHL stats, . .
Bullcrap.

But it is never good when you cannot perform will against other "NHL" prospects. I think Irving's play in international tournaments, against top-notch competitions, means a lot more then his play in the WHL, considering the defense he plays behind
Irving has a bad record against top competition?

He played good in the Summit Series
He played well in the Russia/Canada selects

What the heck are you talking about?

[Cnumb]

Bullcrap.


Irving has a bad record against top competition?

He played good in the Summit Series
He played well in the Russia/Canada selects

What the heck are you talking about?

I would consider this over hyping him, given the team defense he plays behind. Here is one thread

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=32391&page=2

Here is his international stats, insomuch as I could find, and as you can see his SVP isn't great. He did well in the U17's, but that is kind of irrelevant given the age.

http://hockeycanada.prismx.net/index.cfm/ci_id/11737/la_id/1/ss_id/8785/gltender_id/405.htm

He had a good SVP in the super series, but I don't think that means much, considering the competition was anything but "top notch." The Russians were completely steam rolled, and to say that any of the Canadian goalies were challenged in it is simply incorrect.

[Cerebral]

You aren't but realize when you not once - but twice - get info wrong - in both cases negative info about a prospect - it does have the look of you rushing to post negative press about a Flames prospect.

Certainly I do wonder if Irving had put up a bagel if you would have been as keen to bring us that news.
Again, I didn't get information wrong twice. Leland Irving was the goaltender that let in the poor goal in the first Red/White game and the poster that "corrected" me turned out to be incorrect. The only thing I said that was incorrect was that Irving let in three goals and, as I previously stated, that was simply due to an error in the TSN article.

I don't have a history of trolling on this forum so I take offense to the comment that I only rush here to post negative information about Flames prospects.

[moon]

Here is his international stats, insomuch as I could find, and as you can see his SVP isn't great. He did well in the U17's, but that is kind of irrelevant given the age.

http://hockeycanada.prismx.net/index.cfm/ci_id/11737/la_id/1/ss_id/8785/gltender_id/405.htm

He had a good SVP in the super series, but I don't think that means much, considering the competition was anything but "top notch." The Russians were completely steam rolled, and to say that any of the Canadian goalies were challenged in it is simply incorrect.

So the only international tournaments that count are ones that kind of support your idiotic argument?

[MrMastodonFarm]

I don't have a history of trolling on this forum so I take offense to the comment that I only rush here to post negative information about Flames prospects.
Dude, try not to take the internet so serious...

[Cerebral]

Dude, try not to take the internet so serious...
You're the one overreacting because I only post "negative" information about a Calgary prospect... :blink:

[Cnumb]

So the only international tournaments that count are ones that kind of support your idiotic argument?

The two ones he played well in, from those statistics, were the U17's and the Super Series - only two tournaments he posted a 900+ SVP. For obvious reasons, the U17's are not a great measuring stick for numerous reasons.

As for the Super Series - it simply doesn't qualify as "top notch competition", which, as I already said, was what I thought was the best measuring stick for prospects. Team Canada went 7-0-1 completely obliterating the Russians - the goalies were not tested. Hell, Irving was the worst of the three goalies in these series, as both Mason and Bernier had better numbers.

As for it been idiotic? On the contrary. It would be idiotic to give the stats I isolated all that meaning, and for obvious reasons.

[Reggie Dunlop]

I would have to think Irving is indeed a blue-chipper if Oilers and Canucks fans so strenuously debate that he isn't.

[Cerebral]

I would have to think Irving is indeed a blue-chipper if Oilers and Canucks fans so strenuously debate that he isn't.
I guess that would make Robbie Schremp a blue-chipper too! :)

[Reggie Dunlop]

I guess that would make Robbie Schremp a blue-chipper too! :)

Well certainly there's forums in which Oilers fans are free to extoll his *cough* virtues. I suggest you consider checking them out.

[flamesrule14]

As for the Super Series - it simply doesn't qualify as "top notch competition", which, as I already said, was what I thought was the best measuring stick for prospects. Team Canada went 7-0-1 completely obliterating the Russians - the goalies were not tested. Hell, Irving was the worst of the three goalies in these series, as both Mason and Bernier had better numbers.
.

Irving 180 mins, 3 wins, 1.33 AVG, .955 SV%
Bernier 151 mins 2 wins, 1.19 AVG, .956 SV%
Mason 149 mins, 2 wins, 2.42 AVG, .938 SV%

[Reggie Dunlop]

Here I thought the Super Series was an international tournament.

As for the Russians having had a weak team, how it any different than some of the competition in the World Junior tournaments?

[Cnumb]

Irving 180 mins, 3 wins, 1.33 AVG, .955 SV%
Bernier 151 mins 2 wins, 1.19 AVG, .956 SV%
Mason 149 mins, 2 wins, 2.42 AVG, .938 SV%

This website seems to suggests otherwise.

http://hockeycanada.prismx.net/index.cfm/ci_id/14990/la_id/1/ss_id/24821/season_id/213/team_id/726.htm

[Cnumb]

Here I thought the Super Series was an international tournament.

As for the Russians having had a weak team, how it any different than some of the competition in the World Junior tournaments?

Hmm, when did I say it wasn't? My criteria, from the beginning, was that the best way to judge a prospect was when he was facing top notch competition - which the Russian team certainly didn't provide.

As for the WJC's, yes, they do provide better competition then that Russia team. Especially Canadian inter-squad games.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Hmm, when did I say it wasn't? My criteria, from the beginning, was that the best way to judge a prospect was when he was facing top notch competition - which the Russian team certainly didn't provide.

As for the WJC's, yes, they do provide better competition then that Russia team. Especially Canadian inter-squad games.

Inter-squad games mean jack. Unless it's the Joey Moss Cup, that is.

[Cnumb]

Inter-squad games mean jack. Unless it's the Joey Moss Cup, that is.

I think they mean as much as how you play when you are 17 years old, or the Super Series where I could have played in net and had a 900 SVP.

[Reggie Dunlop]

I think they mean as much as how you play when you are 17 years old, or the Super Series where I could have played in net and had a 900 SVP.

And they all mean jack when it comes to the NHL.

I'm sure Leland Irving would rather have a NHL career (and this development in no way hinders it) than a cookie from the HockeysFuture crowd.

[Cnumb]

And they all mean jack when it comes to the NHL.

It would be silly to think that all past performances prior to the NHL, cannot be used at all to predict whether a goalie will be successful in the NHL. I would agree that it isn't the be all, and end all - but there definitely is a correlation.

[Reggie Dunlop]

It would be silly to think that all past performances prior to the NHL, cannot be used at all to predict whether a goalie will be successful in the NHL. I would agree that it isn't the be all, and end all - but there definitely is a correlation.

By not being one of two goaltenders in a tournament for 20 year olds? For a goaltender?

About as relevant as the 17-year-old tournament you mentioned.

[Cnumb]

By not being one of two goaltenders in a tournament for 20 year olds? For a goaltender?

About as relevant as the 17-year-old tournament you mentioned.

Are you referring to the fact that Irving didn't make the WJC's? Obviously it doesn't mean he can't be successful in the future - but it is never good not to be the best in your age group, because on average, the best players from there age group make the NHL.

I never made any statement that implied that Irving couldn't be successful because of the fact he failed to make team Canada.

[Reggie Dunlop]

I never made any statement that implied that Irving couldn't be successful because of the fact he failed to make team Canada.

Yes, you are certainly going to great lengths to paint it that way, despite your protestations.

[Cnumb]

Yes, you are certainly going to great lengths to paint it that way, despite your protestations.

How so? This place is so defensive. I mention a couple legitimate criticisms about analyzing Irving through his WHL statistics, and people are up in arms.

[Reggie Dunlop]

How so? This place is so defensive. I mention a couple legitimate criticisms about analyzing Irving through his WHL statistics, and people are up in arms.

By simultaneous citing and then downplaying them? A little bit of Mix 'n' Match approach.

You seem bewildered that there's wide-ranging discussion of Calgary Flames prospects on a forum expressedly designed for that purpose yet summarily dismiss such as groupthink.

Wow.

[Cnumb]

By simultaneous citing and then downplaying them? A little bit of Mix 'n' Match approach.

You seem bewildered that there's wide-ranging discussion of Calgary Flames prospects on a forum expressedly designed for that purpose yet summarily dismiss such as groupthink.

Wow.

I am not 'down playing,' I am just exposing realistic criticisms of why they don't represent his actual play.

I understand there is going to the creation of groupthink, but that doesn't mean people have to be defensive when encountering differing opinions. The pinnacle of rational thinking is acknowledging and discussing all various perspectives.

I just can't understand the hostility towards non-Calgary fans? Its not like I am making wildly illegitimate criticisms here.

[Reggie Dunlop]

I just can't understand the hostility towards non-Calgary fans? Its not like I am making wildly illegitimate criticisms here.

Last time you were around these parts you were rambling on about how Rick Rypien's dad could beat up Jarome Iginla's dad or some such nonsense for which you were promptly banned, so don't play innocent.

As repeatedly mentioned, Leland Irving is currently considered a quality prospect in relation to his peer group despite a small setback. Since there seems to be some degree of unanimity that this is not an insurmountable obstacle, I'm really not seeing whatever point you seem incessantly driven to make.

[Cnumb]

Last time you were around these parts you were rambling on about how Rick Rypien's dad could beat up Jarome Iginla's dad or some such nonsense for which you were promptly banned, so don't play innocent.

No, not the case. I was talking about how Rypien was a good fighter, which is true. I wasn't banned for anything surrounding this...

As repeatedly mentioned, Leland Irving is currently considered a quality prospect in relation to his peer group despite a small setback. Since there seems to be some degree of unanimity that this is not an insurmountable obstacle, I'm really not seeing whatever point you seem incessantly driven to make.

My only point was that his WHL stats are not quite indicative of his play. Then, myself and another poster were discussing his international play. I don't really know why you are having such a hard time understanding the points I have made, probably has more to do with the fact that you cannot have a meaningful discussion with a non-Flames fan who presents a negative opinion on the Flames, mostly because you seem to be rabidly defensive.

[Reggie Dunlop]

My only point was that his WHL stats are not quite indicative of his play. Then, myself and another poster were discussing his international play. I don't really know why you are having such a hard time understanding the points I have made, probably has more to do with the fact that you cannot have a meaningful discussion with a non-Flames fan who presents a negative opinion on the Flames, mostly because you seem to be rabidly defensive.
No, not really. I've never been a stats guy as many here can attest. I just call 'em as I see them and when someone tries to present a convoluted argument I attempt to prod them into either explaining it or watch it unravel (which can, admittedly, get heated). So no, there's nothing personal.

[Cnumb]

No, not really. I've never been a stats guy as many here can attest. I just call 'em as I see them and when someone tries to present a convoluted argument I attempt to prod them into either explaining it or watch it unravel (which can, admittedly, get heated). So no, there's nothing personal.

I fail to see how my argument is convoluted. On the contrary, I think it is actually quite basic. I don't mind if you disagree with my assertions, but to claim they are convoluted is false.

[Monkey_Fracas]

Here I thought the Super Series was an international tournament.

As for the Russians having had a weak team, how it any different than some of the competition in the World Junior tournaments?

Since the Russians have a history of sending subpar teams to the CHL challenge in order to keep their WJC squad under wraps, the argument can possibly be made that this was also the case for the Super Series. Personally, I think its a tough call. Tretiak organized the tournament and it received a lot of attention in Russia, so you would think they'd send their best team out there. On the other hand, it's tough to think that the traditionally strong Russian junior team could be as atrociously bad as it was in the Series.

By not being one of two goaltenders in a tournament for 20 year olds? For a goaltender?

About as relevant as the 17-year-old tournament you mentioned.

Lets be serious. You can't deny the amount of scouting that goes into this tournament by NHL clubs. Players can make or break their draft by how they perform in this tournament. For junior players, its a huge deal.

I'm don't think anyone is suggesting this is utterly disastrous for Irving, Pat White and Ellington weren't even invited to their respective camps from a Canucks perspective. However, it's at the very least a little disappointing, how can it not be?

[Reggie Dunlop]

Since the Russians have a history of sending subpar teams to the CHL challenge in order to keep their WJC squad under wraps, the argument can possibly be made that this was also the case for the Super Series. Personally, I think its a tough call. Tretiak organized the tournament and it received a lot of attention in Russia, so you would think they'd send their best team out there. On the other hand, it's tough to think that the traditionally strong Russian junior team could be as atrociously bad as it was in the Series.

Versus playing the Switzerlands, Slovakias, Germanys or weaker editions of otherwise strong nations?

Lets be serious. You can't deny the amount of scouting that goes into this tournament by NHL clubs. Players can make or break their draft by how they perform in this tournament. For junior players, its a huge deal.

Draft Schmaft. Goaltender gets picked higher, he gets a better entry level contract. There's your Big Deal.

Obviously now, Irving has to put this disappointment behind him. Agreed. Bragging points for the fans would be the least of his concerns.

[moon]

Since the Russians have a history of sending subpar teams to the CHL challenge in order to keep their WJC squad under wraps, the argument can possibly be made that this was also the case for the Super Series. Personally, I think its a tough call. Tretiak organized the tournament and it received a lot of attention in Russia, so you would think they'd send their best team out there. On the other hand, it's tough to think that the traditionally strong Russian junior team could be as atrociously bad as it was in the Series.

I think it is pretty fair to say that this was about as good a team as the Russians could put together. They had their big guns and Tretiak was keen on ensuring that they did well here. The idea was pushed as much if not more by the Russians than the Canadians.

Prior to the tournament the '88's were viewed as a very poor year for Russian propsects, so them not being great was not surprising. Their goaltending was atrocious which never helps and they seem to have gave up once it was clear that they were going to lose. Honestly was this series that much different than the Russian performance in the finals against Canada in the WJHC? The only difference was that the series made it much clearer what the Russians do once they are out of the game/series.


Lets be serious. You can't deny the amount of scouting that goes into this tournament by NHL clubs. Players can make or break their draft by how they perform in this tournament. For junior players, its a huge deal.


I think because of the position and the fact that they take only two players that it is much less of a concern that he didnot make the team this year. Also,considering that the competition was very high at the position also makes it easier to understand as well.

Had Irving gone out an not shown himself to be at this calibre then they may be concerns but last year he showed that he had the ability to play at this level, in the summer he showed that he had the ability to play at this level and in December he showed that he had the ability but that there were two other guys, one chosen ahead of him in the draft, that the selectors preferred.

Personally I don't see it as that big a deal at all for a 23rd (?) pick overall to be considered one of the top three goalies of his draft year. There is still plenty of hockey to be played before any of these guys reach the NHL consistently as starters and despite Cerebals stories of bad goals and Cnumb's use of stats that make Irving look as bad as possible I see no reason to not think that Irving is still a top level goaltending prospect, not an elite level prospect but still a guy that has a good shot at making the NHL and possibly being a starter.

[Cerebral]

There is still plenty of hockey to be played before any of these guys reach the NHL consistently as starters and despite Cerebals stories of bad goals and Cnumb's use of stats that make Irving look as bad as possible I see no reason to not think that Irving is still a top level goaltending prospect, not an elite level prospect but still a guy that has a good shot at making the NHL and possibly being a starter.
Dear lord, do you guys think I'm lying or something? Okay, watch the video titled "Red And White Game" and pay attention to the goal scored at 1:09:

http://www.tsn.ca/world_jrs/news_story/?ID=224986&hubname=world_jrs

Does that not classify as an ugly goal? The puck was shot from the bloody half-boards and it beat Irving. Not once did I insinuate that the goal against meant Irving was a poor goaltender. All I said is that it likely hurt his chances of making the squad this season.

[moon]

Dear lord, do you guys think I'm lying or something? Okay, watch the video titled "Red And White Game" and pay attention to the goal scored at 1:09:

http://www.tsn.ca/world_jrs/news_story/?ID=224986&hubname=world_jrs

Does that not classify as an ugly goal? The puck was shot from the bloody half-boards and it beat Irving.

When did I say or imply that you were lying?

I said your story because you were the one talking about it. You can get as defensive as you want but I was just commenting on what was said in the thread, not on whether it was true or not. If I thought you were lying I would have said Cerebals lies.

[Cerebral]

When did I say or imply that you were lying?

I said your story because you were the one talking about it. You can get as defensive as you want but I was just commenting on what was said in the thread, not on whether it was true or not. If I thought you were lying I would have said Cerebals lies.
The wording behind your statement made it seem as though I'm some enemy agent spreading propaganda to bring down the almighty Leland Irving. I apologize if that wasn't your intent but at least my link proves that my previous statement was true.

[JiriHrdina]

Again, I didn't get information wrong twice. Leland Irving was the goaltender that let in the poor goal in the first Red/White game and the poster that "corrected" me turned out to be incorrect. The only thing I said that was incorrect was that Irving let in three goals and, as I previously stated, that was simply due to an error in the TSN article.

I don't have a history of trolling on this forum so I take offense to the comment that I only rush here to post negative information about Flames prospects.

Never accused you of trolling - just that you like to point out fault in Flames prospects. That's OK - I like to point out faults in Oiler prospects.

Everyone has their bias - including you. It is what it is.

You're not 100% objective.

[JiriHrdina]

I'd also add that I think Leland Irving might be the first goalie ever that gets MORE criticism because he had a GAA under 2.00 in a season.

Stats shmats.

Do you think the Flames drafted him because of stats?

The reasons why he is consider a solid prospect is because of his skills, character, potential and ability as a goalie.

The stats support those things - but there has been far too much time spent on them.

And Cnumb reading through this thread - you seem to find a reason to rule out any performance that Irving has that was good.

WHL performance? Well that's cuz he has a good D.
Against the Russians? Oh they're not very good.
U17s - irrelvent because of age.

But an intersquad game? Well that's the basis for a solid assessment.

Seem to me that consistency is the name of the game - and he has been good more often than bad.

You want to offer up a different point of view - go ahead. But don't expect people to respect it when it comes off as a transparent attempt to slam a prospect you don't seem to know much about except for stats you find on the Interweb.

[flamesrule14]

This website seems to suggests otherwise.

http://hockeycanada.prismx.net/index.cfm/ci_id/14990/la_id/1/ss_id/24821/season_id/213/team_id/726.htm


Ok did you look at the stats? Pretty obvious they are wrong.

[Phanuthier]

Wow I'm a little surprised the intersquad game is being taken so seriously. More indicative of his WHL? Ok... I love watching the WJC as much as the next guy, and it definatly helps boost a prospects profile when he has a solid series, but it doesn't (or shouldn't) ruin theirs if they have a poor series. You are basing your critisism of a team sport when they've had a couple practises together? Hardly constructive critisism.

[Phanuthier]

I was replying to Reg there, I'm not sure why I accidentally quoted you as well.

In regards to me being the harbinger of doom, I would argue that I have never done that all that frequently on this board so I don't know why you're trying to paint me like that. I'm a huge fan of the WJCs and I thought it was big news that Leland Irving let in 3 goals while the other goaltenders all let in one or less. The news report proved to be false but I figured Flames fans would at least want to hear and I don't see why I should be restricted to solely posting pro-Flames news.
You have to admit you sure were quick to point out a weak goal Irving let in during practise, but were no where to be seen when (more Oiler related issue) Joffrey Lupul gest 3G+3A in a game, then follows up with another hat trick a few days later.