Israel and Lebanon now fighting

[Lanny_MacDonald]

I thought the US claimed that?

Please! The US claims to have the best of everything. They are the greatest! Just ask them. :rolleyes:

I really don't understand what the ability of Israeli Special Forces has anything to do with the government deciding NOT to use them.

The point is that if there was ever a situation where you wanted to use your special forces, this is it. I think this is an intentional disregard for the proper strategy and is an intentional show of force directed at civilians. That's why I can't side with the action. Those than have power must wield it wisely. Those that don't will see their power lead to their own destruction. So history has written, so history will apply to those who abuse their power. It's only a matter of time before the bullies get their heads handed to them.

[Azure]

Please! The US claims to have the best of everything. They are the greatest! Just ask them. :rolleyes:
But I thought you said Israel claims that?

Maybe you should come clean and admit that each country has a respective group of Special Forces troops that can do the job when called upon. Instead of insulting the ability of every single member that has gone through hell to become a part of such a small community.

The point is that if there was ever a situation where you wanted to use your special forces, this is it. I think this is an intentional disregard for the proper strategy and is an intentional show of force directed at civilians. That's why I can't side with the action. Those than have power must wield it wisely. Those that don't will see their power lead to their own destruction. So history has written, so history will apply to those who abuse their power. It's only a matter of time before the bullies get their heads handed to them.
And you know that become you have 30 years of experiance with Special Forces troops, situations and such? Or because you're an armchair general that see's things the way you want to see them?

How do you even know that Israeli Special Forces aren't in Lebanon trying to find the captured soldiers?

But hey, if you have THAT much more knowledge then the guys that have BTDT, keep on going off the deep end, and making assumptions based on what the media tells you.

[Lucky boy]

Looks like Irseal thinks Iran is behind the kidnapping

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5192990.stm

This is looking familiar to what happened in Iraq. The months prior to the invasion of Iraq, we just kept hearing reports upon reports of weapons of mass desctruction, and all sort of things going on in Iraq. It seems like someone might be trying to raise support to form a coalition against Iran. The US/Isreal have certainly not wasted any oppertunities to take a shot at Iran.

I don't have much knowledge when it comes to what is happening in Iran, so I can't really comment on whether a war with Iran can be justified or not.

I really feel for the people of Lebanon, they have suffered the most, and have the least to do with anything.

[Azure]

I don't have much knowledge when it comes to what is happening in Iran, so I can't really comment on whether a war with Iran can be justified or not.


Maybe you should quit with your ridiculous claims then....

This is looking familiar to what happened in Iraq. The months prior to the invasion of Iraq, we just kept hearing reports upon reports of weapons of mass desctruction, and all sort of things going on in Iraq. It seems like someone might be trying to raise support to form a coalition against Iran. The US/Isreal have certainly not wasted any oppertunities to take a shot at Iran.

[spiteface]

I really feel for the people of Lebanon, they have suffered the most, and have the least to do with anything.

That's exactly it.

Listen, Israel knows where every spec of water is in Lebanon. Don't tell me this operation wasn't pre-planned. They nailed Lebanon at the height of their touristic season, and brought the whole country to rubble. If they want to, they can go in without any problems, recover their two soldiers and dismantle Hizbollah in a matter of days. But they're intentions go beyond that, and by giving themselves a carte blanche they have now reached a Lebanese death toll of 230. Explain this to me, how does one compare 230 Lebanese deaths to 20 Israeli deaths? Why - because the life of an Israeli is worth literally that much more than any arab national.

Defend herself? This is how a country defends itself... well then call me stupid for I thought defending oneself would include eliminating harm from an oppressor. But what harm to the people in south of Lebanon pose? How about the people in the Bekaa Valley? or the people of southern Beirut? How about the bridges they have demolished? How about the relief buses they blew up on their way from the Emirates? How about the ports and the airports and the highways to help these ppl escape death? And Israel said they gave fair warning? WHo teh **** is living a double standard.

My two cents and im sick of Israel. They will get theirs.

[Cube Inmate]

Those than have power must wield it wisely. Those that don't will see their power lead to their own destruction. So history has written, so history will apply to those who abuse their power. It's only a matter of time before the bullies get their heads handed to them.

Hope you're not too disappointed when the USA, Israel, and the rest of the civilized world are still alive and kicking in 20...40...100 years.

[Azure]

That's exactly it.

Listen, Israel knows where every spec of water is in Lebanon. Don't tell me this operation wasn't pre-planned. They nailed Lebanon at the height of their touristic season, and brought the whole country to rubble. If they want to, they can go in without any problems, recover their two soldiers and dismantle Hizbollah in a matter of days. But they're intentions go beyond that, and by giving themselves a carte blanche they have now reached a Lebanese death toll of 230. Explain this to me, how does one compare 230 Lebanese deaths to 20 Israeli deaths? Why - because the life of an Israeli is worth literally that much more than any arab national.

Defend herself? This is how a country defends itself... well then call me stupid for I thought defending oneself would include eliminating harm from an oppressor. But what harm to the people in south of Lebanon pose? How about the people in the Bekaa Valley? or the people of southern Beirut? How about the bridges they have demolished? How about the relief buses they blew up on their way from the Emirates? How about the ports and the airports and the highways to help these ppl escape death? And Israel said they gave fair warning? WHo teh **** is living a double standard.

My two cents and im sick of Israel. They will get theirs.

Anti-semitism at its best.

You have no clue what is happening, do you?

[Cube Inmate]

"If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart, and if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain."
-Winston Churchill (attributed)

Not a bad description of the Arab and Israeli supporters (respectively) as well. You'd have to be heartless to support the IDF's operations against enemies with inferior arms. You'd have to be brainless to think that there's a solution to this thing involving anything other than all-out eradication of the extremists.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

But I thought you said Israel claims that?

I did say that, and it is recognized as being so around much of the globe. It was YOU that said the Americans claimed to be the best, where I sarcastically said "they claimed to be the best at everything", which they do. Not many people agree with them, but that doesn't stop Americans from thinking they are indeed the greatest civilization ever to have existed and still the world leader in everything.

Maybe you should come clean and admit that each country has a respective group of Special Forces troops that can do the job when called upon. Instead of insulting the ability of every single member that has gone through hell to become a part of such a small community.

Insulting them? Where the hell did I insult them? Holy over-reaction. I said the Israeli's claimed to have the best special forces units in the world (acknowledged by several sources as being pretty accurate), so I don't see that as being an insult to anyone.

And you know that become you have 30 years of experiance with Special Forces troops, situations and such? Or because you're an armchair general that see's things the way you want to see them?

I know that from what I read and who I talk to. And how do you know any different? Because YOU do the exact same thing, so save me your bull****. You know people, just like I do.

How do you even know that Israeli Special Forces aren't in Lebanon trying to find the captured soldiers?

They likely are in Lebanon. Someone has to paint the targets for them lazer guided bombs the Israelis are dropping. If they are trying to recover the soldiers, they are doing it in an awfully unoxthodox fashion.

But hey, if you have THAT much more knowledge then the guys that have BTDT, keep on going off the deep end, and making assumptions based on what the media tells you.

Blah blah blah. Again, you are doing the exact same thing, so quit your whining. You sound like a little bitch that just had her favorite doll taken away from her.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Hope you're not too disappointed when the USA, Israel, and the rest of the civilized world are still alive and kicking in 20...40...100 years.

Are you intimating that only zionists are civilized? I don't get your point. :blink:

"If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart, and if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain."
-Winston Churchill (attributed)

Yup, when he wasn't falling down ****ed drunk he could make some sense.

Not a bad description of the Arab and Israeli supporters (respectively) as well. You'd have to be heartless to support the IDF's operations against enemies with inferior arms.

I think that is why Israel doesn't get more support. They have an endless supply of American arms rolling in, and fighting combatants that are strapping explosives to themselves as a delivery mechanism. Does that explain the desperation these people have to win and what their cause means to them?

You'd have to be brainless to think that there's a solution to this thing involving anything other than all-out eradication of the extremists.

Now, when you say "all-out eradication of the extremists" does that include extremists on all sides, or just the side you are cheering for? Personally, I'd be up for a dawn firing squad of all extremists, on BOTH sides. That sure would solve a lot of problems all around the middle east, and get Bush out of my wallet once and for all!

;)

[peter12]

That's exactly it.

Listen, Israel knows where every spec of water is in Lebanon. Don't tell me this operation wasn't pre-planned. They nailed Lebanon at the height of their touristic season, and brought the whole country to rubble. If they want to, they can go in without any problems, recover their two soldiers and dismantle Hizbollah in a matter of days. But they're intentions go beyond that, and by giving themselves a carte blanche they have now reached a Lebanese death toll of 230. Explain this to me, how does one compare 230 Lebanese deaths to 20 Israeli deaths? Why - because the life of an Israeli is worth literally that much more than any arab national.

Defend herself? This is how a country defends itself... well then call me stupid for I thought defending oneself would include eliminating harm from an oppressor. But what harm to the people in south of Lebanon pose? How about the people in the Bekaa Valley? or the people of southern Beirut? How about the bridges they have demolished? How about the relief buses they blew up on their way from the Emirates? How about the ports and the airports and the highways to help these ppl escape death? And Israel said they gave fair warning? WHo teh **** is living a double standard.

My two cents and im sick of Israel. They will get theirs.

Wow... just wow.
As for the cute water comment, for the price of one week's fighting in the Gaza, the Israelis could build 5 water desalination plants.

[Regorium]

I thought you said they were unguided, and they weren't aiming them at civilain targets?

Give me a break. They're unguided in terms of a lack of laser guidance, no TV guidance, no heat seeking missiles. Anyone with any common sense knows what unguided means.

Far as I see it, they're taking action against those that harbour and support Heballah, which includes the Lebanon government.

Just wondering. Are you all for just eliminating Lebanon from the map? Because that's really what it seems like.

What resentment? Israel GAVE up Gaza in order for peace to have a chance to work? Did it? They made a peace agreement with Lebanon in order to peace to work, did it?

The resentment from the 1982 attacks, when Hezbollah was born. The youths of this generation knew civil war, but they did not know first-hand what Israel did to them before. Now they do.

Whether or not they made a peace agreement is moot when you yourself have thousands of Lebanese prisoners, whether they have a charge or not.

[Lucky boy]

It seems like someone might be trying to raise support to form a coalition against Iran. The US/Isreal have certainly not wasted any oppertunities to take a shot at Iran.

Maybe you should quit with your ridiculous claims then....

But this is a quote for something you said earlier

But I have a feeling the US, Syria and Iran, plus a bunch of other countries will get involved as well.

:eek:


You need to stop over reacting whenever someone disagrees with Isreal. You keep complaining about anti semitisim, yet your hate for Arabs is quite blatant.

[Cube Inmate]

Re: "civilized":

In this context, it refers to a society that fights its wars for the purpose of keeping its civilians safe, using orthodox methods such as wearing uniforms, reporting to a democratically elected government, and having the ultimate goal of cessasion of hostilities, not conquest. You will (of course) dispute the assertion that America's current wars are intended to improve the security of its citizens. Ostensibly, that IS the purpose though, and the "hostilities" were very clearly started by certain parties across the ocean.

It specifically does NOT refer to a society that fights as a proxy for a hostile nation while stationed on another nation's soil, in an undemocratic society, reporting to no one, and using unmarked bases in civilian neighborhoods to attempt to hide from counter-attack. It does not refer to a group whose stated purpose is the elimination of an internationally recognized nation.

Does it sound like those definitions are based on "zionism?"

Re: "eradicating the extremists"

Yes....get rid of all of them on both sides, but obviously the definition of "extreme" depends on the observer. I consider it extreme to want to wipe Israel off the map, when it's clear that it's not going anywhere. Whether it should have been created or not in the first place is a different story...but that's somewhat irrelevant now, 60 years later. I consider it extreme to lob missiles across borders at non-military targets simply to terrorize the population. On the other hand, I consider it "heavy-handed" to bomb in civilian areas because the bad guys are there, but at least there is a legitimate military purpose in this.

You apparently consider Bush and his policies to be extreme. I'll assume we're referring mostly to foreign policy, as that's what the discussion is about. In that case, I have to wonder what you thought of his policies before 9/11? Before a group of whackos, acting outside of the rules of combat, attacked the country you're living in and killed 3000 innocent people. I would consider that attack a little extreme, and the Bush et. al response to be rather reserved in fact. Of course, this is likely irrelevant as well since the WTC was brought down by a Bush administration conspiracy in your looney tunes world.

[CaptainCrunch]

Give me a break. They're unguided in terms of a lack of laser guidance, no TV guidance, no heat seeking missiles. Anyone with any common sense knows what unguided means.

They're unguided in terms of what happens after thier fired, but they can still be fairly accurate when aiming at a Civilian population. Firing between map points isn't that difficult, its the same theory as firing a artillary shell. Its simple math.



Just wondering. Are you all for just eliminating Lebanon from the map? Because that's really what it seems like.

Thats a fairly accusatory statement, I certainly don't want Lebanon wiped off of the map, and I don't think anyone on this board has said anything to that point. However the destruction of Hamas, and the security of Israel's towns and civillians has to be recognized as part of the equation, and since Lebanon has been either unwilling or unable to control these factions that are actually in thier government, Israel is doing it. Now if you reverse that statement and I ask you if you want to see Israel wiped off of the map, I would be saying the same thing . . . but I certainly don't believe that. You have to look at the historical problems in the region when it comes to Israel's security.

The war in 1948 was a war of aggression launched against Israel by unified Arab forces

The 1956 was was launched by Israel after they received intelligence that they were going to be attacked again.

The 1967 (6 day war) was launched after attacks by Palestine forces, combined with actions from Egypt

The 1973 Yom Kipper War was launched against Israel by forces from Egypt and Syria with assistance from other Arab Nations

The 1982 was that you speak of was very similar to todays war, and was stated by Palestine raids from Bases in Lebanon.

If you look at the history you wonder why Israel lashes back, they feel that nobody is going to protect them from a hostile region that seems to be intent on destroying thier country. Time after time these groups have been untrustworthy which fuels Israel's paranoa, and forces the reaction that you've seen today.

The resentment from the 1982 attacks, when Hezbollah was born. The youths of this generation knew civil war, but they did not know first-hand what Israel did to them before. Now they do.

Don't make these groups out to be hero's or even soldiers. They're not, and they do more harm to thier own people then they do to Israel. What Israel has done to them, what about what they've done to themselves? In nearly every instance, Israel has had to bear the brunt of the attacks, or terrorist assaults and then have been condemned for fighting back.



Whether or not they made a peace agreement is moot when you yourself have thousands of Lebanese prisoners, whether they have a charge or not.

Why should Israel have to negotiate with Hezbollah, and why should they take the first steps. Everytime Israel has made a deal in the region its been thrown back in thier face. What makes this any different? Whats to guarantee the peace process if chances are that some of these realeased prisoners are back lighting the fuses or launching rockets the next day. Until groups like the Hezbollah, and Hamas recognize Israels right to survive and thier right to security, and put down thier arms there is no reason for Israel to do anything but exterminate them.
:rolleyes:

[CaptainCrunch]

You need to stop over reacting whenever someone disagrees with Isreal. You keep complaining about anti semitisim, yet your hate for Arabs is quite blatant.

You know to return some civility to this board, and to defend Azure, I haven't seen any real pronouncement of a hatred for Arabs, if I missed something in what is becoming a very long string I apologize, but I'm not seeing it.

[Lucky boy]

You know to return some civility to this board, and to defend Azure, I haven't seen any real pronouncement of a hatred for Arabs, if I missed something in what is becoming a very long string I apologize, but I'm not seeing it.

He keeps shooting out insults at anyone who suggests Isreal is at fault for anything. He always brings up the anti semitism issue, I probably went over board with my claim, but most of his posts seem like they try to anger the apposing poster.

I noticed CaptainCrunch that you have stated several times that Isreal has had most of their peace offerings thrown back in their face. Obviously Isreal wants peace more than the Palestinians. Isreal would prefer the status quo, where as the Palestinians feel like they are cheated. Peace can succeed in the Middle East and a good example is the peace treaty between Egypt and Isreal.

In order for a peace treaty to work, almost always both sides have to be of equal power. Egypt and Isreal at the time were able to form a treaty because they were both close to equal strength. But now you have one group who is clearly much stronger than other, it makes it harder to form peace. Sometimes the weaker nation doesn't have the capabilities to meet their end of the bargain( ie controlling their extremists).

All that aside, this war needs to be stopped. The destruction of Lebanon isn't going to destroy the terrorists.

[jolinar of malkshor]

That's exactly it.

Listen, Israel knows where every spec of water is in Lebanon. Don't tell me this operation wasn't pre-planned. They nailed Lebanon at the height of their touristic season, and brought the whole country to rubble. If they want to, they can go in without any problems, recover their two soldiers and dismantle Hizbollah in a matter of days. But they're intentions go beyond that, and by giving themselves a carte blanche they have now reached a Lebanese death toll of 230. Explain this to me, how does one compare 230 Lebanese deaths to 20 Israeli deaths? Why - because the life of an Israeli is worth literally that much more than any arab national.

Defend herself? This is how a country defends itself... well then call me stupid for I thought defending oneself would include eliminating harm from an oppressor. But what harm to the people in south of Lebanon pose? How about the people in the Bekaa Valley? or the people of southern Beirut? How about the bridges they have demolished? How about the relief buses they blew up on their way from the Emirates? How about the ports and the airports and the highways to help these ppl escape death? And Israel said they gave fair warning? WHo teh **** is living a double standard.

My two cents and im sick of Israel. They will get theirs.

When people are shooting rockets into ones country, and they take out those rocket sites, THAT is called defence. Israel is just suppose to sit back and let them kidnapp their soldiars and have rockets rain down on them.

RIGHT

[jolinar of malkshor]

He keeps shooting out insults at anyone who suggests Isreal is at fault for anything. He always brings up the anti semitism issue, I probably went over board with my claim, but most of his posts seem like they try to anger the apposing poster.

I noticed CaptainCrunch that you have stated several times that Isreal has had most of their peace offerings thrown back in their face. Obviously Isreal wants peace more than the Palestinians. Isreal would prefer the status quo, where as the Palestinians feel like they are cheated. Peace can succeed in the Middle East and a good example is the peace treaty between Egypt and Isreal.

In order for a peace treaty to work, almost always both sides have to be of equal power. Egypt and Isreal at the time were able to form a treaty because they were both close to equal strength. But now you have one group who is clearly much stronger than other, it makes it harder to form peace. Sometimes the weaker nation doesn't have the capabilities to meet their end of the bargain( ie controlling their extremists).

All that aside, this war needs to be stopped. The destruction of Lebanon isn't going to destroy the terrorists.

Peace cannot be achieved in the middle east while any terrorist group is operating there. You cannot compare a treaty between Egypt and Israel as proof that peace is achievable. Egypt has much less at stake than the Palistinians.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Your right, the destruction of Lebanon will not stop the terrorists. But unless the Lebanesse army takes control of the area and stops bowing toward the pressure from Hezzbola (mainly Syra and Iran) Israel has little choice but to try and remove the terrorists themselves.

[CaptainCrunch]

He keeps shooting out insults at anyone who suggests Isreal is at fault for anything. He always brings up the anti semitism issue, I probably went over board with my claim, but most of his posts seem like they try to anger the apposing poster.

I noticed CaptainCrunch that you have stated several times that Isreal has had most of their peace offerings thrown back in their face. Obviously Isreal wants peace more than the Palestinians. Isreal would prefer the status quo, where as the Palestinians feel like they are cheated. Peace can succeed in the Middle East and a good example is the peace treaty between Egypt and Isreal.

In order for a peace treaty to work, almost always both sides have to be of equal power. Egypt and Isreal at the time were able to form a treaty because they were both close to equal strength. But now you have one group who is clearly much stronger than other, it makes it harder to form peace. Sometimes the weaker nation doesn't have the capabilities to meet their end of the bargain( ie controlling their extremists).

All that aside, this war needs to be stopped. The destruction of Lebanon isn't going to destroy the terrorists.

Peace Treaties can only really exist between nation states that are willing to put aside key positions in order to achieve a mutually beneficial relationship.

Hezbollah is not a nation state and thier actions can not and are not controlled by an accountable government. They and Hamas have also stated in thier charters that they want nothing less then the extermination of Israel, so as long as these groups are in existance there is no chance that there is going to be any type of lasting peace for example between Lebanon and Israel, because a peace treaty between these two countries does not serve the end goals that Hamas and Hezbollah wish to see.

The only way that I could see a cease fire is if Lebanon actively went out of thier way to destroy Hamas in place with what military they have no matter what the cause. the problem with this is that it would cause a civil war without end in Lebanon between the Hezbollah and thier *****e supporters and the rest of the nation.

Israel will and cannot accept nothing less then a buffer zone and the destruction of Hezbollah assets in that buffer zone, its unlikely that they would trust any international bodies pledges on a ceasefire as they will not trust the outside world as far as thier security goes.

I think we need to settle in on what will be a long conflict, unless Lebanon and Israel can reach an agreement on the disarming of the Hezbollah.

Its even grimer in Palestine as the Hamas has formed the government there, and there will never be any common ground between these two groups.

[Azure]

I did say that, and it is recognized as being so around much of the globe. It was YOU that said the Americans claimed to be the best, where I sarcastically said "they claimed to be the best at everything", which they do. Not many people agree with them, but that doesn't stop Americans from thinking they are indeed the greatest civilization ever to have existed and still the world leader in everything.

I sacastically asked the question, okay?

The US has a very capable Special Forces group, probably one that is known as being as capable as Britain, Israel or even Canada's.

Point being, I don't think its our position to dicuss that Israeli Special Forces are better then American Special Forces.

Insulting them? Where the hell did I insult them? Holy over-reaction. I said the Israeli's claimed to have the best special forces units in the world (acknowledged by several sources as being pretty accurate), so I don't see that as being an insult to anyone.

To me, as someone who KNOWS people in what we're talking about, I would find your comments very insulting.


I know that from what I read and who I talk to. And how do you know any different? Because YOU do the exact same thing, so save me your bull****. You know people, just like I do.


Difference being, I don't go around sprouting crap about something I know NOTHING about. Just like you, without any experiance know NOTHING about what goes on in the black ops.


They likely are in Lebanon. Someone has to paint the targets for them lazer guided bombs the Israelis are dropping. If they are trying to recover the soldiers, they are doing it in an awfully unoxthodox fashion.


So you think they aren't looking for the soldiers? Maybe they have been shipped to Iran.


Blah blah blah. Again, you are doing the exact same thing, so quit your whining. You sound like a little bitch that just had her favorite doll taken away from her.


Try being more civilized and you might get half your point across.

[Azure]

Give me a break. They're unguided in terms of a lack of laser guidance, no TV guidance, no heat seeking missiles. Anyone with any common sense knows what unguided means.

Maybe you should have acknowledged that in the first place, eh? Without making it seem like Hezballah shoots the rockets in a relative direction, HOPING they will hit an Israeli city and kill innocent people.

Just wondering. Are you all for just eliminating Lebanon from the map? Because that's really what it seems like.


To edit and clarify myself, yes I do believe that a government that harbours and supports terrorists should be taken out, but I really feel that Lebanon has its hands tied in this situation. I don't think they have the military/police power to take out Hezballah, so its almost a necessity that Israel does it.

The resentment from the 1982 attacks, when Hezbollah was born. The youths of this generation knew civil war, but they did not know first-hand what Israel did to them before. Now they do.

Are you trying to make me feel sympathetic for their cause?

Hezballah is a terrorist organization, maybe you should acknowledge that too.


Whether or not they made a peace agreement is moot when you yourself have thousands of Lebanese prisoners, whether they have a charge or not.


I thought under the Geneva convention you had the right to hold a POW until the end of said conflict.

So whats your point?

[Azure]

But this is a quote for something you said earlier

You need to stop over reacting whenever someone disagrees with Isreal. You keep complaining about anti semitisim, yet your hate for Arabs is quite blatant.

What does that have too do with your CT's about the conflict?

A conflict you yourself said you know "nothing about."

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Hezbollah is not a nation state and thier actions can not and are not controlled by an accountable government.

Yet the expectation is that certain countries in the region are fully expected by Israel to control Hezbollah? Yes, a very interesting conundrum that seems to slip by more than a few around here. It's kind of like invading Iraq to get to al Qaeda. It is not effective and only increases the recruiting effort.

[Azure]

Yet the expectation is that certain countries in the region are fully expected by Israel to control Hezbollah? Yes, a very interesting conundrum that seems to slip by more than a few around here. It's kind of like invading Iraq to get to al Qaeda. It is not effective and only increases the recruiting effort.

Hezballah has been elected into the Lebanon government though, thats where I find reason to blame Lebanon for letting this become worse then it should be.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

I sacastically asked the question, okay?

The US has a very capable Special Forces group, probably one that is known as being as capable as Britain, Israel or even Canada's.

Point being, I don't think its our position to dicuss that Israeli Special Forces are better then American Special Forces.

What a joke! Now we can't mention who has the best forces, as outlined by different publications, because it bruises your twisted little sensibilities? Get over yourself.

To me, as someone who KNOWS people in what we're talking about, I would find your comments very insulting.

I find your whole condesending attitude insulting, so that makes us even. And as some who also KNOWS people in what we're talking about, I can make any comment I want.

Difference being, I don't go around sprouting crap about something I know NOTHING about. Just like you, without any experiance know NOTHING about what goes on in the black ops.

On the contrary. This thread, and any other one that breathes about the militay, proves you're more than willing to sping a load about subjects you know nothing about.

So you think they aren't looking for the soldiers? Maybe they have been shipped to Iran.

WTF are you suggesting? You just finished rambling on about people talking **** about stuff they don't know anything about and then you pull this one out of your ass? Unbelievable!


Try being more civilized and you might get half your point across.

Try being more civil in your own right, and less of a whiny bitch, and you might get taken seriously.

[Azure]

Fine Lanny, act like an idiot if you want too.

I for one am sick and tired of reading any thread you are involved in, as your comments are ALWAYS insulting towards whoever you're talking too.

I have been civilized in every single post towards you, but no, you still gotta act like an arrogant twit that thinks he knows EVERYTHING.

[spiteface]

Anti-semitism at its best.

You have no clue what is happening, do you?

Dont even start with the name-calling game. I just picked up my friends from the airport who fled the country in disbelief. YOU have no room to speak unless you've been there and felt what demolition they were undergoing. You speak from a safe persepective from your little house in Calgary or Canada or whatever.

This is what is happening: The US is the bully in town. Israel is its little rich friend. The arab countries are the ones that don't take **** from the bullies. The USA wants to get into Syria/Iran, and this was perfect timing for Israel to set things up.

Who suffers... Lebanon. The country coming out of a massive civil war and its aftermath. How the hell do ppl let Israel get away with what it is doing? Isn't that terrorism? Tell me who in their right mind can go in and literally bring down an entire nation in a matter of 5 days?

You mean to tell me, that the all might Israel can't take out a minor group such as Hizbollah? You my friend are biased towards the Israeli cause and you think that anything they do is justified. Hizbollah is a terrorist organization? And you're not another robot to the system eh... Label everything like you're used to hearing from the news don't ya. HIzbollah has freed Lebanon's south in 2000 and continues to battel for the Shebaa Farms. Now tell me this, who's the terrorist? 250 Dead to 20 Dead? No questions asked. Why do you always mask everything and justify it as do the media outlets. Is it safe from your perspective or are you a coward to face the truth.

[transplant99]

Dont even start with the name-calling game. .

Just asking...what name were you called exactly?

[spiteface]

Don't mix up anti-semitic with anti-zionist. All that's come from them is hatred and a growing need to take over teh entire middle east.

[spiteface]

Anti-semitic

[spiteface]

What I love is ppl actually give Azure credibility and he/she claims that everybody else doesn't know **** all. Buddy i'd love to see you in the middle of it all and how we would'nt hear a peep from you.

[transplant99]

Don't mix up anti-semitic with anti-zionist. All that's come from them is hatred and a growing need to take over teh entire middle east.

Are you saying Israel is trying to take over the middle east? With help from the USA I assume??

If so, what would that agenda include exactly?

[spiteface]

Are you saying Israel is trying to take over the middle east? With help from the USA I assume??

If so, what would that agenda include exactly?

Read up on Zionist.

Tell me what you think of the USA so far in conquering Iraq, Afghanistan, and now their sticking their noses in Iran/Syria. They already control all of the Arabian Gulf, who are mere puppets to the them (ie oil for cheap). Egypt and Jordan are practical sell-outs. What's left for the US to "liberate"?

[Winsor_Pilates]

You know to return some civility to this board, and to defend Azure, I haven't seen any real pronouncement of a hatred for Arabs, if I missed something in what is becoming a very long string I apologize, but I'm not seeing it.
Maybe not blatent hatred, but a complete shrug of the shoulders when it comes to innocent arab lives is a recurring theme.
Even the CANADIAN casualties aren't getting much sympathy due to the fact they are arab-canadians.

I would say a complete disreguard for human life, boarders on hate.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Difference being, I don't go around sprouting crap about something I know NOTHING about.
You have done it for 7 pages now.
How do you always have absolute truths in matters of opinion?

[transplant99]

Tell me what you think of the USA so far in conquering Iraq,

According to most...that simply hasn't happened....well at least according to the left. They say its a bigger mess than was possible....yet you are claiming it done. Which is it?


Afghanistan,


The US had every conceivable right to go to war with them. Where do you think the 9/11 conspirators got the training and resoources to carry out what happened? Oh...i forgot, that never really happened and it was a controlled demolition on the one of the worlds most highly guarded buildings...and same thing at the pentagon.

Got it.


and now their sticking their noses in Iran/Syria


They are?

If you say so.


They already control all of the Arabian Gulf, who are mere puppets to the them (ie oil for cheap).


You're not saying that independant countries with a commodity to sell to their biggest buyer...are puppets are you?

Funny thing here....by a HUGE margin the one country that supplies more oil to the USA more than anybody else? Canada.

Damn...maybe Harper is a Bush lackey!! But then so were Martin and Cretian right?

Egypt and Jordan are practical sell-outs.

Practical sell outs?


I thought being practical was what most people wanted? Again...Im lost.


What's left for the US to "liberate"?



Well..clearly..... Canada...they have more oil.


Beyond that...Iran has a bunch....Syria has its share as well. Yet Im pretty darn sure they havent seen a US rocket in years.

Just...you know....using common sense and facts. Sorry to disrupt.

[transplant99]

You have done it for 7 pages now.
How do you always have absolute truths in matters of opinion?

The same way you do I would assume.

[Winsor_Pilates]

The same way you do I would assume.
I guess I'll respond since I wasn't able to put you on ignore.

Please show me anywhere in this thread, where I've offered anything but my opinion or told someone they had no right to offer their opinion.

[Cube Inmate]

You my friend are biased towards the Israeli cause and you think that anything they do is justified. Hizbollah is a terrorist organization? And you're not another robot to the system eh... Label everything like you're used to hearing from the news don't ya. HIzbollah has freed Lebanon's south in 2000 and continues to battel for the Shebaa Farms. Now tell me this, who's the terrorist? 250 Dead to 20 Dead? No questions asked. Why do you always mask everything and justify it as do the media outlets. Is it safe from your perspective or are you a coward to face the truth.

Although not directed at me, I find this comment quite telling. You would accuse someone else of BIAS after just admitting that you had friends in Lebanon? You, amigo, are in no position to talk.

Nobody is truly "unbiased," but there are some who have no direct stake in the conflict (that's me)...and then there are people like you who are right ****ed off because your friends were getting bombs thrown at them.

So...are you willing to admit that you *might* have a little bit of bias for some reason? Or are you a perfectly objective observer? Perhaps one of few objective observers who saw the Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon for what it really was...a triumph for Hezbollah?

[transplant99]

I guess I'll respond since I wasn't able to put you on ignore.

Please show me anywhere in this thread, where I've offered anything but my opinion or told someone they had no right to offer their opinion.

OK


You have done it for 7 pages now.


So his opinion is somehow not as valid as yours?

Nevermind dozens of other threads, (recall a World Cup thread by chance?) where someone else offered up an opinion you didn't agree with and you resorted to the BS you are so good at?

Hypocrite of epic proportions....in my opinion only of course.

[Cube Inmate]

I would say a complete disreguard for human life, boarders on hate.

I have a complete disregard for the life of pretty much any person I don't personally know, or otherwise have warm fuzzy feelings for. I don't hate them...I just don't give a rat's ass one way or another.

As for the Canadians...maybe it's not that they were Arab, but that they were voluntarily present in a country that was unstable, and partially run by an organization of loonies with militaristic tendencies.

Edit: let's clarify...I wouldn't run down an old lady in a crosswalk, but if someone else did that very thing in a country halfway around the world, I really wouldn't care.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Dont even start with the name-calling game. I just picked up my friends from the airport who fled the country in disbelief. YOU have no room to speak unless you've been there and felt what demolition they were undergoing. You speak from a safe persepective from your little house in Calgary or Canada or whatever.

This is what is happening: The US is the bully in town. Israel is its little rich friend. The arab countries are the ones that don't take **** from the bullies. The USA wants to get into Syria/Iran, and this was perfect timing for Israel to set things up.

Who suffers... Lebanon. The country coming out of a massive civil war and its aftermath. How the hell do ppl let Israel get away with what it is doing? Isn't that terrorism? Tell me who in their right mind can go in and literally bring down an entire nation in a matter of 5 days?

You mean to tell me, that the all might Israel can't take out a minor group such as Hizbollah? You my friend are biased towards the Israeli cause and you think that anything they do is justified. Hizbollah is a terrorist organization? And you're not another robot to the system eh... Label everything like you're used to hearing from the news don't ya. HIzbollah has freed Lebanon's south in 2000 and continues to battel for the Shebaa Farms. Now tell me this, who's the terrorist? 250 Dead to 20 Dead? No questions asked. Why do you always mask everything and justify it as do the media outlets. Is it safe from your perspective or are you a coward to face the truth.

He speaks from a country that doesn't support terrosit organizations like Hezbollah. Your just as crazy as Lanny buddy. Israel did not set up the kidnapping of its soldiars by both Hamas and Hezbollah and then ask them to start fireing missles willy nilly into their country.

I agree with you that Lebanon is kind of stuck in the middle. They are trying to build a democracy but they are also responsible for these groups that operate in their country. If they cannot manage themselves they should be asking the UN for help not Syria.

Israel has a right to defend its self and if Lebanon cannot stop the terrorists from shootin missles over the border and kidnapping members of their military then they have a right to stop it themselves.

As for Israel not being able to crush Hezbollah. First you dont want them to enter Lebanon then Israel should be able to crush them in days. The USA can't stop terrorists in IRAQ and you think Israel should be able to stop Hezzbollah. It's called Guarilla warfare. These terorists hide all their weapons in civilian houses and work underground. Think about it.
That is why there is 200 dead compared to 20. If you want to blame these deaths on anyone maybe you should be asking Hezbollah why they are hiding all thier weapons in these places and firing missles from residential areas. If Israel wanted they could carpet bomb the entire city and be done with them.

[Winsor_Pilates]

So his opinion is somehow not as valid as yours?
His opinions are valid. The part where he tells others they have no right to voice their opinions is invalid.

Nevermind dozens of other threads, (recall a World Cup thread by chance?) where someone else offered up an opinion you didn't agree with and you resorted to the BS you are so good at?

Hypocrite of epic proportions....in my opinion only of course.
I had absolutely no problem with the differening opinions about the world cup, soccer etc. I even thanked Clarkey for starting a new thread about it and stated it was certainly worthy of discussion. How is this not allowing other opinions?
Perhaps you should take another look at that thread.
The only part I objected to was your drive by. And it had nothing to do with your opinion, only the way you presented it.
There were plenty of others that felt the same way too.

anyway, I don't want to ruin another thread by getting dragged into a ****ing match with you.

If that's what you want, find another taker.

This topic is too important to waste bickering with you.

[Winsor_Pilates]

If they cannot manage themselves they should be asking the UN for help not Syria.
They have, and the US being the only nation in opposition to it, veto'd UN involvement.

[Azure]

Dont even start with the name-calling game. I just picked up my friends from the airport who fled the country in disbelief.


Airport? Excuse me for asking, but I thought all the aiports in Lebanon were shut down, and that the Canadian/American or any foreign government was doing the extraction by military forces.

??

[jolinar of malkshor]

They have, and the US being the only nation in opposition to it, veto'd UN involvement.

They didnt ask for help until after the situation exploded. I am talking about years ago when they should have taken control of Hezbollah and didn't. Of course they don't want international help now (US or Israel) because then they wouldn't beable to attack Hezbollah. It would be just another complete waste of time and money.

They have had a small contingent of UN ofrces in Lebanon since 1982 and that force did NOTHING to contraol Hezbollah. Infact, they were actually scared of them and pretty much turned a blind eye.

[Azure]

They have, and the US being the only nation in opposition to it, veto'd UN involvement.

They asked for help? Or they asked for Israel to quit with the attacks?

If Lebanon would have been really concerned about Hezballah, since it has been obvious that Hezballah has one objective, and that is to eliminate Israel, Lebanon would have asked for help when Hezballah first set up shop. It has been at least 20 years now, and the UN STILL hasn't be asked to come help restore a proper government and get the terrorist organizations out of the country.

[RougeUnderoos]

Hezballah has been elected into the Lebanon government though, thats where I find reason to blame Lebanon for letting this become worse then it should be.

What? I thought Israel was the only democracy in the region? Or does it only count as a democracy when they people elect a group that meets the approval of western conservatives?

Ho-hum. It's all got me wondering though -- when some Lebanese kid who was made an orphan during this past week becomes a terrorist in 10 years and does something crazy, how many of us will still smile and nod when someone tells us he hates us for our freedoms?

[CaptainCrunch]

Dont even start with the name-calling game. I just picked up my friends from the airport who fled the country in disbelief. YOU have no room to speak unless you've been there and felt what demolition they were undergoing. You speak from a safe persepective from your little house in Calgary or Canada or whatever.

This is what is happening: The US is the bully in town. Israel is its little rich friend. The arab countries are the ones that don't take **** from the bullies. The USA wants to get into Syria/Iran, and this was perfect timing for Israel to set things up.

Who suffers... Lebanon. The country coming out of a massive civil war and its aftermath. How the hell do ppl let Israel get away with what it is doing? Isn't that terrorism? Tell me who in their right mind can go in and literally bring down an entire nation in a matter of 5 days?

You mean to tell me, that the all might Israel can't take out a minor group such as Hizbollah? You my friend are biased towards the Israeli cause and you think that anything they do is justified. Hizbollah is a terrorist organization? And you're not another robot to the system eh... Label everything like you're used to hearing from the news don't ya. HIzbollah has freed Lebanon's south in 2000 and continues to battel for the Shebaa Farms. Now tell me this, who's the terrorist? 250 Dead to 20 Dead? No questions asked. Why do you always mask everything and justify it as do the media outlets. Is it safe from your perspective or are you a coward to face the truth.

I had a response to this, but I realized that its not worth it. I'm glad that your friends got out safe though.

[Azure]

What I love is ppl actually give Azure credibility and he/she claims that everybody else doesn't know **** all. Buddy i'd love to see you in the middle of it all and how we would'nt hear a peep from you.

What is that supposed to mean?

Its hilarious that you DEFEND, support and sympathize for a TERRORIST run organization. In fact, its SICK.


Hizbollah is a terrorist organization? And you're not another robot to the system eh... Label everything like you're used to hearing from the news don't ya. HIzbollah has freed Lebanon's south in 2000 and continues to battel for the Shebaa Farms.


That comment is sick, pathetic and utterly filled with ignorance and hatred towards Israel.


Known or suspected to have been involved in numerous anti-US and anti-Israeli terrorist attacks, including the suicide truck bombings of the US Embassy and US Marine barracks in Beirut in 1983 and the US Embassy annex in Beirut in 1984. Three members of Hizballah, ‘Imad Mughniyah, Hasan Izz-al-Din, and Ali Atwa, are on the FBI’s list of 22 Most Wanted Terrorists for the 1985 hijacking of TWA Flight 847 during which a US Navy diver was murdered. Elements of the group were responsible for the kidnapping and detention of Americans and other Westerners in Lebanon in the 1980s. Hizballah also attacked the Israeli Embassy in Argentina in 1992 and the Israeli cultural center in Buenos Aires in 1994. In 2000, Hizballah operatives captured three Israeli soldiers in the Shab’a Farms and kidnapped an Israeli noncombatant.


Hizballah also provides guidance and financial and operational support for Palestinian extremist groups engaged in terrorist operations in Israel and the occupied territories.
In 2004, Hizballah launched an unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) that left Lebanese airspace and flew over the Israeli town of Nahariya before crashing into Lebanese territorial waters. Ten days prior to the event, the Hizballah Secretary General said Hizballah would come up with new measures to counter Israeli Air Force violations of Lebanese airspace. Hizballah also continued launching small scale attacks across the Israeli border, resulting in the deaths of several Israeli soldiers. In March 2004, Hizballah and HAMAS signed an agreement to increase joint efforts to perpetrate attacks against Israel. In late 2004, Hizballah’s al-Manar television station, based in Beirut with an estimated ten million viewers worldwide, was prohibited from broadcasting in France. Al-Manar was placed on the Terrorist Exclusion List (TEL) in the United States, which led to its removal from the program offerings of its main cable service provider, and made it more difficult for al-Manar associates and affiliates to operate in the United States.


Just because they attack the country you would love to see whiped off the face of the map, does not make them "freedom fighters."

But I guess for a guy that supports annexing a free, legal and democratic nation, every terrorist activity is a fight for "freedom."

[Azure]

What? I thought Israel was the only democracy in the region? Or does it only count as a democracy when they people elect a group that meets the approval of western conservatives?

Ho-hum. It's all got me wondering though -- when some Lebanese kid who was made an orphan during this past week becomes a terrorist in 10 years and does something crazy, how many of us will still smile and nod when someone tells us he hates us for our freedoms?

HAMAS is democratic as well.

Nothing against the people in a democratic nation, nor do I have anything against the people of Lebanon, but I do have a problem when a nations supports, harbours and elects a group that has one purpose, to wipe out Israel.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Any person who thinks that Hezballah is not a Terrorist organization is completely out to lunch.

[jolinar of malkshor]

HAMAS is democratic as well.

Nothing against the people in a democratic nation, nor do I have anything against the people of Lebanon, but I do have a problem when a nations supports, harbours and elects a group that has one purpose, to wipe out Israel.

I do have to say that Hezballah holds very little political power in Lebanon and most of the people in Lebanon do not support Hezballah either as a political group or as terrorist group.

[Azure]

I do have to say that Hezballah holds very little political power in Lebanon and most of the people in Lebanon do not support Hezballah either as a political group or as terrorist group.

Regardless, they still hold political seats.

I am not blaming the people of Lebanon, but the government for refusing to deal with their problem the past 20 years.

[Azure]

Any person who thinks that Hezballah is not a Terrorist organization is completely out to lunch.

And I thought everyone was acceptful of that fact.

Now I have to go back and make sure that everything I have heard the past 2 weeks about Hezbollah is actually true. :whaa:

[jolinar of malkshor]

Regardless, they still hold political seats.

I am not blaming the people of Lebanon, but the government for refusing to deal with their problem the past 20 years.

I agree with you. Just saying that it's not political party like Hamas

[jolinar of malkshor]

The Lebonese government is currently in violation of UN resolution 1559

On September 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_2), 2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004), the UN Security Council (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Security_Council) adopted UN Security Council Resolution 1559 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1559), coauthored by France and the United States. Echoing the Taif Agreement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taif_Agreement), the resolution "calls upon all remaining foreign forces to withdraw from Lebanon" and "for the disbanding and disarmament of all Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias." Lebanon is currently in violation of Resolution 1559 over its refusal to disband the military wing of Hezbollah. Syria was also in violation of the resolution until recently because of their military presence in Lebanon

[Azure]

I agree with you. Just saying that it's not political party like Hamas

Oh I know.

HAMAS is the majority elected government, therein lies the difference.

[Regorium]

The Lebonese government is currently in violation of UN resolution 1559

On September 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_2), 2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004), the UN Security Council (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Security_Council) adopted UN Security Council Resolution 1559 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1559), coauthored by France and the United States. Echoing the Taif Agreement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taif_Agreement), the resolution "calls upon all remaining foreign forces to withdraw from Lebanon" and "for the disbanding and disarmament of all Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias." Lebanon is currently in violation of Resolution 1559 over its refusal to disband the military wing of Hezbollah. Syria was also in violation of the resolution until recently because of their military presence in Lebanon

If the US didn't veto seven pro-lebanon/palestinian resolutions, maybe we'd see Israel violating some of that?

Point is, UN resolutions mean NOTHING in this conflict because it's all one sided.

[Winsor_Pilates]

They didnt ask for help until after the situation exploded. I am talking about years ago when they should have taken control of Hezbollah and didn't. Of course they don't want international help now (US or Israel) because then they wouldn't beable to attack Hezbollah. It would be just another complete waste of time and money.

They have had a small contingent of UN ofrces in Lebanon since 1982 and that force did NOTHING to contraol Hezbollah. Infact, they were actually scared of them and pretty much turned a blind eye.
I thought you were talking about now. my mistake.

I'm not too familiar with Lebanons efforts to control Hezbollah in the past. If there hasn't been many, then I would agree with you there should have been.

[jolinar of malkshor]

If the US didn't veto seven pro-lebanon/palestinian resolutions, maybe we'd see Israel violating some of that?

Point is, UN resolutions mean NOTHING in this conflict because it's all one sided.

The problem is it isn't one sided. Israels goal is not to wipe out all Arabs, Syria, Iran, Lebanon as Hamas and Hezbollah stated goals are.

Militarily it needs to be one sided for if it wasn't, Israel would not be here as we speak. If either Hamas or Hezbollah had the chance they would wipe Israel from the face of the planet.

[CaptainCrunch]

If the US didn't veto seven pro-lebanon/palestinian resolutions, maybe we'd see Israel violating some of that?

Point is, UN resolutions mean NOTHING in this conflict because it's all one sided.

Those were veto'd, this one was passed which means that Lebanon has broken international law.

Israel isn't violating something that didn't pass through the security council.

[Azure]

If the US didn't veto seven pro-lebanon/palestinian resolutions, maybe we'd see Israel violating some of that?

Point is, UN resolutions mean NOTHING in this conflict because it's all one sided.

Oh the irony.

[Regorium]

Those were veto'd, this one was passed which means that Lebanon has broken international law.

Israel isn't violating something that didn't pass through the security council.

Put Iran on the Security Council and see how many of those resolutions that Lebanon is violating pass.

[Azure]

Put Iran on the Security Council and see how many of those resolutions that Lebanon is violating pass.

If Iran would be on the security council, it would be a sad, sad day for the civilized world.

[Regorium]

The problem is it isn't one sided. Israels goal is not to wipe out all Arabs, Syria, Iran, Lebanon as Hamas and Hezbollah stated goals are.

Militarily it needs to be one sided for if it wasn't, Israel would not be here as we speak. If either Hamas or Hezbollah had the chance they would wipe Israel from the face of the planet.

Yeah, it's terrible because a civilization can't stand on its own. Needs outside help. Israel hides behind big brother USA.

Of COURSE the USA is going to veto everything. Allies should not be allowed to vote on issues pertaining to other allies. Such biased-ness is not only NOT in the world's best interests, but will further escalate any violence already there.

[Cube Inmate]

CC...that post gives me serious deja vu for some reason.

On topic...the fact is that "international law" is only that which is enforced by the broad international community. He who hath the biggest stick is right. UN resolutions that aren't enforced are worth exactly as much as the paper they're written on.

[Regorium]

If Iran would be on the security council, it would be a sad, sad day for the civilized world.

My point is. The USA is going to veto everything that's even remotely anti-Israel. How's that fair?

[CaptainCrunch]

Put Iran on the Security Council and see how many of those resolutions that Lebanon is violating pass.

Thats irrelevant to this argument unless your pointing to a world wide conspiracy to destroy the Arab states.

Having Iran as a security council member would be as much of a nightmare as thier human rights records.

The fact is under the current umbrella of the law things like the ceasefire didn't pass because they did nothing to address Israel's security concerns and the return of the hostages.

The protocal that did pass is something that Lebanon hasen't lived up to. however its more of a indication of the weakness of the UN then anything else.

[Azure]

My point is. The USA is going to veto everything that's even remotely anti-Israel. How's that fair?

Fair enough. I don't see anything wrong with the veto, as it wouldn't have done any good.

I don't think the UN could do anything right now.

[Regorium]

Thats irrelevant to this argument unless your pointing to a world wide conspiracy to destroy the Arab states.

Having Iran as a security council member would be as much of a nightmare as thier human rights records.

The fact is under the current umbrella of the law things like the ceasefire didn't pass because they did nothing to address Israel's security concerns and the return of the hostages.

The protocal that did pass is something that Lebanon hasen't lived up to. however its more of a indication of the weakness of the UN then anything else.

Oh yeah, and having the states ISN'T a nightmare? I don't even know what they're doing in the UN. We all know that they're 100% willing to circumvent any type of resolution and wage illegal war.

Well...If not Iran (which is PURELY to illustrate my point, I understand the consequences of having Iran on the security council), I still think the Arab population deserves a member on the Security Council. They're getting screwed and noone cares.

[Azure]

Oh yeah, and having the states ISN'T a nightmare? I don't even know what they're doing in the UN. We all know that they're 100% willing to circumvent any type of resolution and wage illegal war.

Well...If not Iran (which is PURELY to illustrate my point, I understand the consequences of having Iran on the security council), I still think the Arab population deserves a member on the Security Council. They're getting screwed and noone cares.

Okay, you're going to have to argue your point without blind hatred towards the US.

Iran and the US are NOT comperable, so don't even start.

[Cube Inmate]

My hatred for the USA grows daily.

...

**** the USA.

Why do you even bother arguing when you've admitted that your position is nothing more than blind hatred?

Edit: well said, Azure

[CaptainCrunch]

Yeah, it's terrible because a civilization can't stand on its own. Needs outside help. Israel hides behind big brother USA.

Of COURSE the USA is going to veto everything. Allies should not be allowed to vote on issues pertaining to other allies. Such biased-ness is not only NOT in the world's best interests, but will further escalate any violence already there.

I don't know if its worthwhile sticking to this debate for me after this post. Maybe if the Arab world hadn't continously attacked, tried to invade, bomb, and promote acts of violence in Israel we wouldn't have these problems.

Read the Hamas charter, its a document that has highpoints that peace conferances and initiative that pertain to the middle east are the enemy of the Islam world ( Article 13) or the part that calls for the irradication of Israel as a state because its evil in the eye's of Islam and god.

Maybe you should look at the Hezbollah charter which calls for the continuous attack of the jewish state.

So why shouldn't Israel have allies, the Arab states certainly did thier part to gang up on it, until Egypt and Jordan and Saudi Arabia decided that they couldn't win.

Besides there were 63 resolutions between 1955 and 1992 that were passed by the security council which included the United States.

[jolinar of malkshor]

The US has only used their veto 11 times since 1996. So it's not like they are VETOing everthing that might be against Israel. The fact is Russia/Soviet Union has used their VETO 122 times and US 81.

[CaptainCrunch]

The US has only used their veto 11 times since 1996. So it's not like they are VETOing everthing that might be against Israel. The fact is Russia/Soviet Union has used their VETO 122 times and US 81.

Great you just stole my research.

Mannn

[CaptainCrunch]

CC...that post gives me serious deja vu for some reason.

On topic...the fact is that "international law" is only that which is enforced by the broad international community. He who hath the biggest stick is right. UN resolutions that aren't enforced are worth exactly as much as the paper they're written on.

Why would that give you deja vu?

[Cube Inmate]

Why would that give you deja vu?

Dunno...just did. I thought I redeemed the post slightly by including an "on-topic" component though.

Deja vu is a strange, strange thing ain't it?

[jolinar of malkshor]

Great you just stole my research.

Mannn

Sorry buddy.

[CaptainCrunch]

Dunno...just did. I thought I redeemed the post slightly by including an "on-topic" component though.

Deja vu is a strange, strange thing ain't it?

Yeah especially when the topic is international law.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Israeli ground troops have entered southern Lebanon on a mission to destroy outposts of the militant group Hezbollah, an Israel Defense Forces spokesman told CNN early Wednesday.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/18/mideast/index.html

[Lanny_MacDonald]

The US has only used their veto 11 times since 1996. So it's not like they are VETOing everthing that might be against Israel. The fact is Russia/Soviet Union has used their VETO 122 times and US 81.

Way to twist the facts. 106 of the Soviets vetos came PRIOR to 1965. Conversely, every single of the United States vetos have come since 1966. So in a real world comparison, the count is 81-16, United States. But why let the facts get in the way of a good spin job?

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/data/vetotab.htm

Here's a list of exactly what was vetoed.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/membship/veto/vetosubj.htm

Here's a summary of some of the key points that have impacted the WOT:

Since January 2001, the veto has been used seven times, solely by the United States, and vetoing resolutions that would:

Establish a UN observer force to protect Palestinian civilians, Mar 27 2001
Urge the withdrawal of Israeli forces from Palestinian-controlled territory and condemning acts of terror against civilians, Dec 14 2001
Renewal of the UN peacekeeping mission in Bosnia, June 30 2002
Censure Israel for the killing of several United Nations employees and the destruction of the World Food Programme (WFP) warehouse, Dec 20 02
Censure Israel for the decision to “remove” Palestinian Authority leader Yasser Arafat, Sep 16 03
Censure Israel for continuing to build the security wall, Oct 14 03
Condemning the killing of Ahmed Yassin, the leader of the Islamic Resistance Movement Hamas, Mar 25 04The other countries last used the veto in 1999 (China, regarding the former Yugoslavia), 1994 (Russian Federation, on Bosnia and Herzegovina), 1989 and (France & UK, on Panama - with US). In fact, France (and UK) has consistently vetoed with the US, and you have to go back to 1976 to find a French solo veto;

1989 - Twice w/ US & UK - On Panama and on Libya
1986 - w/ US & UK - On Libya
1981 - Four times w/ US & UK - On Namibia
1977 - Three times w/ UK & US - On South Africa. (This was to refuse to censure SA for Apartheid)
1976 - w/ US & UK - On Namibia
1976 - alone!!!! - On dispute between the Comoros and France on Mayotte
1975 - w/ US & UK - On Namibia
1974 - w/ UK & US - On South Africa.
1956 - twice w/ UK - On Palestine
1947 - alone!!!! - On Indonesia
1946 - w/ USSR - On SpainIn summary, as of writing, since 1946 there have been 254 SC vetos. France has accounted for 18 of them, while the US has contributed 79 (and more than 80% of the eleven since 1996 - China accounts for the other two). When France veto’s it generally blocks with the US and/or UK (15 times).

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Great you just stole my research.

Mannn

You should have done the research yourself. Jokeinor provided nothing but disinformation, which makes your argument look weak.

[jolinar of malkshor]

My facts are perfectly correct.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

My facts are perfectly correct.

Your facts are a load of crap. Presenting the information in the manner you did is twisting the truth to make the evidence more damning than it really is. But why would I expect anything less from you and your ilk. You see nothing wrong in the Bush Administration fudging the evidence to go into Iraq in the first place. Presenting evidence in a less than honest manner is the same as lying. In a court of law that could put you behind bars.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Your facts are a load of crap. Presenting the information in the manner you did is twisting the truth to make the evidence more damning than it really is. But why would I expect anything less from you and your ilk. You see nothing wrong in the Bush Administration fudging the evidence to go into Iraq in the first place. Presenting evidence in a less than honest manner is the same as lying. In a court of law that could put you behind bars.

I have never supported the Bush administration and I have admitted that to you in the past. But I guess it's ok for you to spout out complete lies. Just because you read into my post more than you should have (just like you do in everything else in life) My facts where relevant to the point that The US has only used it 11 times since 1996. We dont need to go into a history lesson here. The use of the VETO has reduced significantly than when the UN first came into existance when Russia did nothing but use the VETO for its own personal gain.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

I have never supported the Bush administration and I have admitted that to you in the past. But I guess it's ok for you to spout out complete lies. Just because you read into my post more than you should have (just like you do in everything else in life) My facts where relevant to the point that The US has only used it 11 times since 1996. We dont need to go into a history lesson here. The use of the VETO has reduced significantly than when the UN first came into existance when Russia did nothing but use the VETO for its own personal gain.

So you're going to stick with that "I don't support Bush" stuff are you? For a guy that doesn't like Bush, there is not a single thing that his adminstration has done that you've been against.

Now on to the information you presented, you flat out LIED. You got caught in that lie and now you have to live with the egg on your face. The facts are all there, INCLUDING a link that outlines exactly what resolution was vetoed. 10 of the last 11 USA vetos were America directly protecting Israel from censure. You said, "So it's not like they are VETOing everthing that might be against Israel," which is exactly what they have done. YOU LIED. You exaggerated the facts by trying to blow the numbers out of proportion, especially when you based them on the subject matter being debated. I don't mind honest mistakes, but you flat out lied, and then tried to shake it off like it didn't matter. Fact of the matter is that it does matter. It changes the dynamic of the information greatly and that equates to a lie.

[RougeUnderoos]

Nothing against the people in a democratic nation,

I think you've said that a couple times but you don't seem to have anything against attacks that kill Lebanese (or Canadian) people or destroy the infrastructure in that country.

It's like saying you have nothing against the family down the street but you don't mind if someone kills the father and cuts off their electricity because a second cousin of that family did something wrong.

I am surprised that some of the pro-war posters are complaining about breached UN resolutions. It almost seems to me that you are applying a double-standard that dictates that certain states must comply but others are free to ignore UN advice as they see fit.

[jolinar of malkshor]

So you're going to stick with that "I don't support Bush" stuff are you? For a guy that doesn't like Bush, there is not a single thing that his adminstration has done that you've been against.

Now on to the information you presented, you flat out LIED. You got caught in that lie and now you have to live with the egg on your face. The facts are all there, INCLUDING a link that outlines exactly what resolution was vetoed. 10 of the last 11 USA vetos were America directly protecting Israel from censure. You said, "So it's not like they are VETOing everthing that might be against Israel," which is exactly what they have done. YOU LIED. You exaggerated the facts by trying to blow the numbers out of proportion, especially when you based them on the subject matter being debated. I don't mind honest mistakes, but you flat out lied, and then tried to shake it off like it didn't matter. Fact of the matter is that it does matter. It changes the dynamic of the information greatly and that equates to a lie.

Whatever Lanny, just because your paranoid about everything in life doesn't mean I lied. I exaggerated nothing and lied about nothing. The US has used their VETO 11 times since 1996 out of 616 UN resolutions. Thats what I am telling you and those are the facts. Now, What I am not going to do is list off every one of those resloution so you can see if at least 23 of them are resloutions regarding the mid east and Israel. I don't have the time. But if you want to go around and accuse people of lieing that is your own deal.

[jolinar of malkshor]

I think you've said that a couple times but you don't seem to have anything against attacks that kill Lebanese (or Canadian) people or destroy the infrastructure in that country.

It's like saying you have nothing against the family down the street but you don't mind if someone kills the father and cuts off their electricity because a second cousin of that family did something wrong.

I am surprised that some of the pro-war posters are complaining about breached UN resolutions. It almost seems to me that you are applying a double-standard that dictates that certain states must comply but others are free to ignore UN advice as they see fit.

I don't think anyone is PRO war. Some of us just believe that a country has a right to defend itself.

[Winsor_Pilates]

I don't think anyone is PRO war. Some of us just believe that a country has a right to defend itself.
At what point does the offender become the attacker? Is Isreal's defensive reaction limitless, or is there some point at which they've overdone it? Just wondering where you might draw that line, or draw it at all.

[jolinar of malkshor]

[quote=Lanny_MacDonald]So you're going to stick with that "I don't support Bush" stuff are you? For a guy that doesn't like Bush, there is not a single thing that his adminstration has done that you've been against.quote]

Lets look at what I have said before, or maybe you don't want to see it because then you would be the one caught with your pants down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald
Uh huh, and you have backed that up so well. And what makes me a "wing nut"? That I agree with the vast majority of the world that George W. Bush is an incompetnant fool and a danger to world peace? Yup, a real wing nut!

:rolleyes:



Seems like you did to me and to several others in this thread.

And who should decide who these "radicals" are? I certainly hope not you! I wouldn't trust you to pick the color of socks someone should wear in the morning.

You're also going to have to point out these "fanatical Islamic governments" you are refering to? I hope the fellas your hero (Dubya) likes to hold hands with (that would be the Saudis) is at the top of that list?

And why can't you compare a small group of right wing religious zealots in the USA to anyone in the middle east? A zealot is a zealot. Both have made reference to a religious faction being eliminated. Both have openly suggested the assassination of world leaders. Both have encouraged politically bombings of innocents to further their twisted agendas. Why are they not comparable? Because you don't know anything about the middle east or Islam or the people in general? Or is because you just can't believe that anything in the west could be wrong or have an agenda?

You're going to have to explain yourself in some pretty good detail. You've painted yourself into a corner IMO.


I have a challenge for you. Find anywhere on this forum where I said I like, support or agree with George Bush and his personal ideas and agenda. From day one before he was even elected I knew the guy was a complete retard. Never have I supported him or have I bought into the ideas as to why he invade Iraq. Doesn't mean I can't support getting rid of a mass murderer who gasses his own people.

You say"seems like you did to me and others" well show me then wise guy.


And

jolinar of malkshor (http://www.calgarypuck.com/forum/member.php?u=4743) vbmenu_register("postmenu_460981", true);
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Regardless of what other religions teach, This thread is about Islamic teachings in the public school system in Saudia Arabia. Don't push the topic off course by bringing in offshot religions. We all know every religion has their fanatics. However, no other mainstream religion teaches such misgivings toward another non believer on the planet.

It is really terrifying that a country that is suppose to be a western ally is brain washing their citizens. And I agree that Bush is attempting to do the same. Good thing US presidents can only sit for 2 terms.
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[jolinar of malkshor]

At what point does the offender become the attacker? Is Isreal's defensive reaction limitless, or is there some point at which they've overdone it? Just wondering where you might draw that line, or draw it at all.

They can't go in and kill a few of these door knobs. They need to do the job properly. If they don't the Terrorists will realize there is no real consequences to their actions. If the Lebanon government could deal with these radicals then I would agree that Israel is taking this military action to far but the Lebanon government can't deal with them.

[Azure]

I think you've said that a couple times but you don't seem to have anything against attacks that kill Lebanese (or Canadian) people or destroy the infrastructure in that country.

It's like saying you have nothing against the family down the street but you don't mind if someone kills the father and cuts off their electricity because a second cousin of that family did something wrong.

I am surprised that some of the pro-war posters are complaining about breached UN resolutions. It almost seems to me that you are applying a double-standard that dictates that certain states must comply but others are free to ignore UN advice as they see fit.

Where have I ever said that it was good for Israel to kill innocent Lebanon civilians?

I acknowledge collateral damage yes, but certainly don't want it to happen.

[Azure]

Now on to the information you presented, you flat out LIED.

No he never lied. You just can't get it past your thick, stubbern head that someone else was right.

I guess the "I know attitude everything" runs rampant in Lanny land.

[Azure]

http://camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1148

[spiteface]

Airport? Excuse me for asking, but I thought all the aiports in Lebanon were shut down, and that the Canadian/American or any foreign government was doing the extraction by military forces.

??

The Calgary airport?

[spiteface]

What is that supposed to mean?

Its hilarious that you DEFEND, support and sympathize for a TERRORIST run organization. In fact, its SICK.


And you defending Israel and all its butchering is what.. a fight for democracy? Israel knows all along that Hizbollah arent gonna release the soldiers yet they went ahead with the attacks and have now brought Lebanon to rubble.


That comment is sick, pathetic and utterly filled with ignorance and hatred towards Israel.

Did i insult you?


Just because they attack the country you would love to see whiped off the face of the map, does not make them "freedom fighters."

Just because they defended the south of Lebanon ever since Israel has come to occupy the region, and have stood up as the only group to eliminate Israel from occupation in history, and continue to fight for land in Shebaa Farms... makes you wonder.


But I guess for a guy that supports annexing a free, legal and democratic nation, every terrorist activity is a fight for "freedom."

Lebanon = Free, legal and democratic. Why does Israel only stand for democracy. Just a few months ago Bush was encouraging the arabs to use Lebanon as an example of democracy, but now that Israel's involved, you knew there had to be a new point of view about Lebanon.

[spiteface]

According to most...that simply hasn't happened....well at least according to the left. They say its a bigger mess than was possible....yet you are claiming it done. Which is it?


The US had every conceivable right to go to war with them. Where do you think the 9/11 conspirators got the training and resoources to carry out what happened? Oh...i forgot, that never really happened and it was a controlled demolition on the one of the worlds most highly guarded buildings...and same thing at the pentagon.

Got it.



They are?

If you say so.



You're not saying that independant countries with a commodity to sell to their biggest buyer...are puppets are you?

Funny thing here....by a HUGE margin the one country that supplies more oil to the USA more than anybody else? Canada.

Damn...maybe Harper is a Bush lackey!! But then so were Martin and Cretian right?



Practical sell outs?


I thought being practical was what most people wanted? Again...Im lost.



Well..clearly..... Canada...they have more oil.


Beyond that...Iran has a bunch....Syria has its share as well. Yet Im pretty darn sure they havent seen a US rocket in years.

Just...you know....using common sense and facts. Sorry to disrupt.

So the world, in particular, the Middle East is a better place now, ever since Mr. Bush took over office down south? Do you really think he has motivated the Arabs into moving to a more democratic scheme of ruling? To me it just looks like fuel to the fire and unfortunately things look like they are getting worse. The only way to end things and the only way it should've been initiated is through NEGOTIATIONS.

[spiteface]

He speaks from a country that doesn't support terrosit organizations like Hezbollah. Your just as crazy as Lanny buddy. Israel did not set up the kidnapping of its soldiars by both Hamas and Hezbollah and then ask them to start fireing missles willy nilly into their country.

I agree with you that Lebanon is kind of stuck in the middle. They are trying to build a democracy but they are also responsible for these groups that operate in their country. If they cannot manage themselves they should be asking the UN for help not Syria.

Israel has a right to defend its self and if Lebanon cannot stop the terrorists from shootin missles over the border and kidnapping members of their military then they have a right to stop it themselves.

As for Israel not being able to crush Hezbollah. First you dont want them to enter Lebanon then Israel should be able to crush them in days. The USA can't stop terrorists in IRAQ and you think Israel should be able to stop Hezzbollah. It's called Guarilla warfare. These terorists hide all their weapons in civilian houses and work underground. Think about it.
That is why there is 200 dead compared to 20. If you want to blame these deaths on anyone maybe you should be asking Hezbollah why they are hiding all thier weapons in these places and firing missles from residential areas. If Israel wanted they could carpet bomb the entire city and be done with them.

Ok so tell me this, when Israel has 9000 arabs in their prisons, you tell me if the world would stand by and watch any arab country do to Israel what Israel is doing now to Lebanon. You think anybody would let that fly?

You really think Hizbollah is a threat to Israel? The only reason they've been able to survive is because they've been so persistent on liberating all of Lebanon. You know that Hizbollah didn't exist in the initial Israeli occupation of Lebanon, and only came into existence to defend the south from the oppresion of Israel?

[Kobasew fan]

Even though this was not directed at me I have to chime in here.

And you defending Israel and all its butchering is what.. a fight for democracy? Israel knows all along that Hizbollah arent gonna release the soldiers yet they went ahead with the attacks and have now brought Lebanon to rubble.

Granted Isreal could probably be more careful with their attacks on Lebanon to minimize the casualties. What do you expect Isreal to do, open there borders and tell Hezbollah to come in and kidnap soldiers and fire rockets at there cities and not do anything? They are not fighting for democracy as per say but I would say they are trying to defend themselves. However, as I said above they should probably be doing more to prevent casualties.

Just because they defended the south of Lebanon ever since Israel has come to occupy the region, and have stood up as the only group to eliminate Israel from occupation in history, and continue to fight for land in Shebaa Farms... makes you wonder.

Based on this statement it sounds like you think that Isreal should be wiped out completely, or am I wrong? Isreal is an established country and has every right to exist as do the people in Lebanon. Isreal will attack when they are provoked and I don't blame them for this. The kidnapping of soldiers and the rocket attacks on Isreal cities is definatly provocation.

[spiteface]

Granted Isreal could probably be more careful with their attacks on Lebanon to minimize the casualties. What do you expect Isreal to do, open there borders and tell Hezbollah to come in and kidnap soldiers and fire rockets at there cities and not do anything? They are not fighting for democracy as per say but I would say they are trying to defend themselves. However, as I said above they should probably be doing more to prevent casualties.


What they should do is negotiate. They've been doing it all along. They put themselves in this war and should expect things as such to occur. When you have 9000 of your enemies soldiers don't expect the arabs to sit around idle. They will not put up with it. Period.


Based on this statement it sounds like you think that Isreal should be wiped out completely, or am I wrong? Isreal is an established country and has every right to exist as do the people in Lebanon. Isreal will attack when they are provoked and I don't blame them for this. The kidnapping of soldiers and the rocket attacks on Isreal cities is definatly provocation.

Lebanon is also an established country. What gives the right to Israel to enter its land, destroy its livelihood, and control its ppl? And you should get your story straight before asking questions. The soldiers were kidnapped, then Israel started its huge offensive, then Hizbollah returned with rockets. Those pictures you see on CNN of Haifa "burning up" are from like 5 days ago, and they show them over and over. Every picture of Lebanon is brand new demolition. You can't even compare. So if you think taking out an entire nation in Lebanon is enough justification for the kidnapping of 2 Israeli hostages, then you live in a different world than I do.

[if.away]

What they should do is negotiate. They've been doing it all along. They put themselves in this war and should expect things as such to occur. When you have 9000 of your enemies soldiers don't expect the arabs to sit around idle. They will not put up with it. Period.

Negotiate? With who? Negotiate with a terrorist organization who is nothing more than the hand of Iran and Syria and who has killed plenty of Israeli citizens in the past and in order to release more of its criminal kin it takes for no reason whatsoever 2 hostages and kills a bunch of soldiers? What else should Israel do? Maybe they should just jump back in the sea and give everything away.

What a great and novel idea! Let's negotiate with people who wish your destruction, give them what they want and at the same time encourage them to continue their actions in the future. I mean Hezbollah wanted *just* around 400 of their criminal buddies back, what about the other 8600? I guess more kidnappings should occur following that logic!

"Negotiations" or something resembling it will come in a week or so when the US throws its weight behind the cease fire calls. When the US will consider Hezbollah seriously weakened and set back a good number of years only at that point they'll "pressure" the Israelis into ending their little fun stomp. If the Syrians and Iranians are smart enough and realize that their gamble backfired, unless diversion and some time is what they really wanted to begin with, they'll let those soldiers go unless they want 2 more Ron Arads on their hands.


Lebanon is also an established country. What gives the right to Israel to enter its land, destroy its livelihood, and control its ppl?
Maybe you should get your story straight. You make it sound like there is some huge Israeli occupation of Lebanon while those poor Lebanese people work under their new overlord occupiers and their whips building the greatest star of David known to mankind. :rolleyes:

How exactly is Israel controlling the Lebanese people? Is there some secret ground invasion you know and you're not telling us about? As of right now the most "entering" of land Israel has done is small incursions into south Lebanon to destroy tunnels and weapons caches used by Hezbollah, precisely the area the "established" country of Lebanon never had under their control because a radical foreign militia has more influence than the central government.

Lebanon sure is an "established" country if it can't control parts of its territory, its army is weaker than a foreign controlled militia, politics are dominated and controlled by Syria while the central government, who constantly refused to address western worries about Hezbollah for a good number of years, claims impotence and total lack of control in a situation like that. If Lebanon was independent as a truly established nation should be these attacks and their provocation would never have occurred. Now they're collectively paying the price for their inability to deal with internal problems which have spilled over and you can make sure the anti Syrian movement in Lebanon will gain a huge boost after this skirmish is over considering the large majority of Lebanese people don't appreciate being used as proxies by their neighbours in a war they don't intend on being part of.

[Nehkara]

Granted Isreal could probably be more careful with their attacks on Lebanon to minimize the casualties. What do you expect Isreal to do, open there borders and tell Hezbollah to come in and kidnap soldiers and fire rockets at there cities and not do anything? They are not fighting for democracy as per say but I would say they are trying to defend themselves. However, as I said above they should probably be doing more to prevent casualties.


What they should do is negotiate. They've been doing it all along. They put themselves in this war and should expect things as such to occur. When you have 9000 of your enemies soldiers don't expect the arabs to sit around idle. They will not put up with it. Period.


Based on this statement it sounds like you think that Isreal should be wiped out completely, or am I wrong? Isreal is an established country and has every right to exist as do the people in Lebanon. Isreal will attack when they are provoked and I don't blame them for this. The kidnapping of soldiers and the rocket attacks on Isreal cities is definatly provocation.

Lebanon is also an established country. What gives the right to Israel to enter its land, destroy its livelihood, and control its ppl? And you should get your story straight before asking questions. The soldiers were kidnapped, then Israel started its huge offensive, then Hizbollah returned with rockets. Those pictures you see on CNN of Haifa "burning up" are from like 5 days ago, and they show them over and over. Every picture of Lebanon is brand new demolition. You can't even compare. So if you think taking out an entire nation in Lebanon is enough justification for the kidnapping of 2 Israeli hostages, then you live in a different world than I do.

Haifa is being attacked every day multiple times.

Negotiate? With who? How? Do you just stop bombing Hezbollah, let them continue firing rockets at you, and wait for them to come to talk?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

I have a challenge for you. Find anywhere on this forum where I said I like, support or agree with George Bush and his personal ideas and agenda. From day one before he was even elected I knew the guy was a complete retard. Never have I supported him or have I bought into the ideas as to why he invade Iraq. Doesn't mean I can't support getting rid of a mass murderer who gasses his own people.

You say"seems like you did to me and others" well show me then wise guy.


And

jolinar of malkshor (http://www.calgarypuck.com/forum/member.php?u=4743) vbmenu_register("postmenu_460981", true);
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Regardless of what other religions teach, This thread is about Islamic teachings in the public school system in Saudia Arabia. Don't push the topic off course by bringing in offshot religions. We all know every religion has their fanatics. However, no other mainstream religion teaches such misgivings toward another non believer on the planet.

It is really terrifying that a country that is suppose to be a western ally is brain washing their citizens. And I agree that Bush is attempting to do the same. Good thing US presidents can only sit for 2 terms.
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http://www.calgarypuck.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25881&highlight=bush

Wow, that's a nice little quote there. You're right, that takes back everything you've said in support of the Bush administration and their actions. I'm wrong, you're right, carry on.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

No he never lied. You just can't get it past your thick, stubbern head that someone else was right.

No, he's wrong and he lied. What he said has no relevance on the discussion at hand. It's pure disinformation meant to cloud the issue, and he has pretty well admitted to that. He said he knew the way the information really played out, referenced it in his original post, but then still brought up 106 votes that the vast majority of happened prior to the assassination of Kennedy. That is a bild faced lie.

A very good parallel would be of we were discussing who the best hockey club has been over the past decade and a Hab fan piped up and stated that the Canadiens had been the best, and their 24 Stanley Cups were proof of that! Great hstorical significance, but no relevance to the topic at hand, and essentially a bold faced lie.


I guess the "I know attitude everything" runs rampant in Lanny land.

Gee, what happened to that whiny bitch that claims he's always civil? Oh yeah, that story was as reliable as anything posted by Jokenar! Sucks when one of your allies gets shredded to ribbons by the GARBAGE he posts. Now I know why you don't post anything to back yourself up with. You know it will expose you as the fraud you are too.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Negotiate? With who? How? Do you just stop bombing Hezbollah, let them continue firing rockets at you, and wait for them to come to talk?

The time for negotiation was with Hamas, immediately after they were elected to replace the PLO as the people's representatives. Israel elected to refuse to acknowledge the new representaive group instead of acknowledging the will of the people. Democracy is a bitch that can sometimes blow up in your face. Bush and company have been preaching about democratic reforms and demanding democray spread in the region. Well why would people embrace democracy if their elected officials aren't acknowledged because of our preconceptions of them? Yes, Hamas was/is a terrorist organization, but they are the ones elected by the people to speak for them. That means we have to talk to the people through their elected officials. Whether we like them or not, no matter what they stand for or have done in the past, we have to accept them as the representatives of the people. That's where the negotiations should have taken place, with who, and in what fashion. Instead the Israelis assassinated and kidnapped the leadership, and bombed the residences of the other representatives. That was not a good reaction and greatly added to the mess spinning out of control.

[Bleeding Red]

I still think the Arab population deserves a member on the Security Council. They're getting screwed and noone cares.

Go to un.org and check it out.....Qatar is on the Security Council, they are slated to be President in December. Syria was on the SC in 2003.

In fact, the ONLY UN member nation NOT allowed to serve on the SC is Israel.


CBC's timeline - July 12 - Hezbolah conducts a raid into Israel - killing 7, wounding 8 and capturing 2 soldiers. (for whatever reason - solidarity with Hamas, because Iran told them to, to prove they could do it)

Israel targets roads & bridges in S. Lebanon to prevent the kiddnappers from taking their hostage out of Lebanon

Israel sends in troops to look for the soldiers (Lanny's snatch & grab)

July 13 - Hezbolah responds with katushya rockets

AAAANNNNNDDDD......things escalate from there.


BTW spiteface - don't try to take the moral high ground because you have friends and relatives in Lebanon who are fleeing - I am sure that a few psoters here could claim the same, either in Lebanon or Israel. We could go back and forth all day.

Unless you are editing all the western news footage, your claim regarding the images from the area is just (as your posting name implys) spitefull and is not an anti-Israel statement. Wether you are implying that the Israelis are not suffering any damage or losses or that the Israelis are trying to elicit sympathy with a single image while the Lebanese images are multipule and therefore more truthful, the claim boarders on amti-semitisim.

The images from the area on the net & TV are generally current with the papers lagging a bit behind.

[transplant99]

Yes, Hamas was/is a terrorist organization, but they are the ones elected by the people to speak for them. That means we have to talk to the people through their elected officials.

I would agree with you except for one thing Lanny...

hamas has, as their charter states, an existance that is based on the obliteration of Israel.

Cant talk with those kind.

[Azure]

The Calgary airport?

Did I say Calgary airport? You implied that your friends had come from Lebanon, and I thought all ports of exit and entry in Lebanon were shut down.

[Bleeding Red]

The time for negotiation was with Hamas, immediately after they were elected to replace the PLO as the people's representatives. Israel elected to refuse to acknowledge the new representaive group instead of acknowledging the will of the people. Democracy is a bitch that can sometimes blow up in your face. Bush and company have been preaching about democratic reforms and demanding democray spread in the region. Well why would people embrace democracy if their elected officials aren't acknowledged because of our preconceptions of them? Yes, Hamas was/is a terrorist organization, but they are the ones elected by the people to speak for them. That means we have to talk to the people through their elected officials. Whether we like them or not, no matter what they stand for or have done in the past, we have to accept them as the representatives of the people. That's where the negotiations should have taken place, with who, and in what fashion. Instead the Israelis assassinated and kidnapped the leadership, and bombed the residences of the other representatives. That was not a good reaction and greatly added to the mess spinning out of control.

After Hamas was elected Israel called for them to renounce violence and accept any previous agreements made between Israel and the PA. Hamas refused to give up their "right to resist occupation" and their "duty to liberate all of historical Palestine" through violence.

Hamas spent their first months trying to eliminate Fatah opposition and begging the world for money rather than saying "ok, we will renounce violence and negotiate".

The rockets from Gaza into Israel were claimed by Islamic Jihad.

Jump to July and terrorists kiddnap a soldier from pre-1967 Israel. The Israeli government gives Hamas 2 days to return the hostage. The 2 days come and go (with rockets hitting the city of Ashkelon) and Israel takes matters into their own hands. The Gaza incursion I agree with. The rounding up of PA legislators I think was unessacary. It gives Hamas reason to claim that they cannot do anything rather than they will not do anything to aid in returning the hostage. Israel has denied Hamas the opportunity to miss the opportunity to show the world that they can be good governors.

[Azure]

What is that supposed to mean?

Its hilarious that you DEFEND, support and sympathize for a TERRORIST run organization. In fact, its SICK.


And you defending Israel and all its butchering is what.. a fight for democracy? Israel knows all along that Hizbollah arent gonna release the soldiers yet they went ahead with the attacks and have now brought Lebanon to rubble.


That comment is sick, pathetic and utterly filled with ignorance and hatred towards Israel.

Did i insult you?


Just because they attack the country you would love to see whiped off the face of the map, does not make them "freedom fighters."

Just because they defended the south of Lebanon ever since Israel has come to occupy the region, and have stood up as the only group to eliminate Israel from occupation in history, and continue to fight for land in Shebaa Farms... makes you wonder.


But I guess for a guy that supports annexing a free, legal and democratic nation, every terrorist activity is a fight for "freedom."

Lebanon = Free, legal and democratic. Why does Israel only stand for democracy. Just a few months ago Bush was encouraging the arabs to use Lebanon as an example of democracy, but now that Israel's involved, you knew there had to be a new point of view about Lebanon.

You're using a double standard that works both ways. Israel is a legal nation, and have every right to go on the offensive to protect their country. Hezbollah on the other hand, is a terrorist organization that is intent in eliminating Israel, something you obviously think is good.

BTW, nowhere have I said that Israel should annex Lebanon and take over their government. I did say that Israel should take our anything to do with Hezbollah, which as a terrorist organization, has no right to exist.

[Azure]

What they should do is negotiate. They've been doing it all along. They put themselves in this war and should expect things as such to occur. When you have 9000 of your enemies soldiers don't expect the arabs to sit around idle. They will not put up with it. Period.



Prisoners of war shall be released and repatriated without delay after the cessation of active hostilities.


I suggest you become more educated in the rules of war before you mention stupid comments.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

[Lucky boy]

It looks like this thread is going down the waste side, so here is an attempt to bring it back to a level where we can civily debate the situation at hand.

First off, lets try to keep the insults to a minimum. I know I am guilty of insulting others as well, but I will try to stop doing it (except for Azure, he is a tool).

In regards to posters justifying the bombing because the Lebanese government is at fault, I would argue against that by saying that bombing has affected the civilians more than anyone else. Posters who condemn the rockets fired at Isreal yet support the Isreal bombing of Lebanon are not seeing the reality of the situation. It is wrong on both sides. People can not become targets because of their government. If you believe people should be held accountable for thier governments, then you have reached the mentality of a terrorist. The victims of 9/11 died because of their government foriegn policies, should they be held accountable for it? Ofcourse not, they had nothing to do with anything. Just like the lebanese have nothing to do with anything.

The counter argument that Isreal bombings and Hezbollah rockets can not be compared because one is a terrorist group while the other is a civil nation is null. A person does not become a terrorist when he disagrees with a certain nations policies. A person becomes a terrorist when he attempts to use fear as a mean to get his message across. Hezzbollah are not terrorists because they disagree with Isreal, Hezzbollah are terrorists because they are willing to kill anyone that is associated with Isreal. In my opinion, Isreal lack of fear of civilian deaths is border line terrorism. Sure they try to aviod civilan deaths, but they don't exactly sweat it when they do hit civilians.

We haven't really debated Iran's involvment in the conflict that much. I find what is going on right now is similar to what happened to Iraq. In the months before the invasion of Iraq, any form of terror that happened in the world was some how related to Iraq. Iran has been in the news alot lately... to me, I think the same thing is happening all over again. Thoughts?

[Azure]

A very good parallel would be of we were discussing who the best hockey club has been over the past decade and a Hab fan piped up and stated that the Canadiens had been the best, and their 24 Stanley Cups were proof of that! Great hstorical significance, but no relevance to the topic at hand, and essentially a bold faced lie.


Whatever Lanny, have it your own way. He never lied though, as he refered to the veto's as a general term.

And he even acknowledged the 11 veto's the US used since 96, why is that a lie?

[Azure]

It looks like this thread is going down the waste side, so here is an attempt to bring it back to a level where we can civily debate the situation at hand.

Sounds good.

First off, lets try to keep the insults to a minimum. I know I am guilty of insulting others as well, but I will try to stop doing it (except for Azure, he is a tool).

Or maybe not. :rolleyes:

[Bleeding Red]

We haven't really debated Iran's involvment in the conflict that much. I find what is going on right now is similar to what happened to Iraq. In the months before the invasion of Iraq, any form of terror that happened in the world was some how related to Iraq. Iran has been in the news alot lately... to me, I think the same thing is happening all over again. Thoughts?

The comparisons may seem erie, but there are a couple of key differences:

Iraq claimed to have no WMD and allowed UN inspectors into the country.
Iran will not allow UN inspectors in and claims to be working towards nuclear capability. Iran has also anounced their plans for their nuclear missles once they get them - obliterate "the Zionist Entity". (where as N. Korea has not said "our nuclear missles will obliterate the US" - I think)
I think (but not sure) Iran is the only country to outright say that they would use nuclear weapons in a first strike offensive rather then as a defenisve detterent.

That Iran funds and influences Hezbolah is commonly accpeted by western nations, htough this does not make it true. Many western media pundits are saying that Iran ordered Hezbolah to action just before the G8 summit to divert attention away from Iran and their nuclear asperations.

Does the US have their eyes on Iran - sure. Would they like to take an active role in regime change in Iran - sure (but they have been trying that for 27 years). Is Iran the next Iraq - probably.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

I would agree with you except for one thing Lanny...

hamas has, as their charter states, an existance that is based on the obliteration of Israel.

Cant talk with those kind.

Then we are not going to see a solution to the problem any time in the future. The people FREELY elected Hamas as their representatives. They speak for the people. Complete refusal just gives them the credability to the stance that they are looking for. Israel should have been smart, acknowledged the new government, attempted to negotiate with the assistance of moderates on both sides (say Egypt and Switzerland as picking two countries out of the hat). That would have placed the onus on Hamas to act like the government they were elected to be. Any issues Israel had could have been officially lodged with the moderates and responded accordingly using what was deemed as fair force.

Frankly I think this boils down to a dealing with a child. Dealing with Hamas is like dealing with a young child. They have no idea what they are really doing and just lash out to get attention. Israel is supposed to be the adult in the room and are supposed to act in a fashion that the other adults would approve of. Israel is not acting like it should. It is feeding the actions of the child, not shaping them. If you want your child to behave like an adult, what do you do? Treat it like an adult and coach it when it makes mistakes along the way, or do you just tell it that its an adult and then beat it down when it makes mistakes? Both sides are dead wrong, but Israel is supposed to be the adult in the room, and they should start acting like it. To me, it is up to them to make this thing work.

After Hamas was elected Israel called for them to renounce violence and accept any previous agreements made between Israel and the PA. Hamas refused to give up their "right to resist occupation" and their "duty to liberate all of historical Palestine" through violence.

Hamas spent their first months trying to eliminate Fatah opposition and begging the world for money rather than saying "ok, we will renounce violence and negotiate".

The rockets from Gaza into Israel were claimed by Islamic Jihad.

Jump to July and terrorists kiddnap a soldier from pre-1967 Israel. The Israeli government gives Hamas 2 days to return the hostage. The 2 days come and go (with rockets hitting the city of Ashkelon) and Israel takes matters into their own hands. The Gaza incursion I agree with. The rounding up of PA legislators I think was unessacary. It gives Hamas reason to claim that they cannot do anything rather than they will not do anything to aid in returning the hostage. Israel has denied Hamas the opportunity to miss the opportunity to show the world that they can be good governors.

I agree wit what you're saying about Hamas. To quote the leader of the most pwerful country in the world (barf) "they have to get their **** together and get over it". That applies to both sides IMO. They need moderates to do some moderation to bring this thing to an end, once and for all.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Whatever Lanny, have it your own way. He never lied though, as he refered to the veto's as a general term.

And he even acknowledged the 11 veto's the US used since 96, why is that a lie?

Because he attempted to shroud the truth of that facts. He did indeed acknowledge that US had vetoed only 11 resolutions since '96, but he failed to acknowledge that there have only been 12 vetoed resolutions in that time frame all together. Wow! Big differerence there when that information is placed in the proper context now, isn't there. Then, to make matters even more confusing he tossed out the information about the Russians/Soviets having used the most vetos in the UN's history, showing there was a disproportionate number of vetos compared to those done by the United States. But when those are put into proper context, and the truth of the matter is exposed, we find that since 1965, the Soviets used only 13 vetos, the Russians used only 3, and the Americans used 81. Again, a huge difference in what the story really is. And then, to top it all off, he stated, and I am quoting him directly, "So it's not like they are VETOing everthing that might be against Israel", which is a bold faced lie. All but one resolution the USA has vetoed has been in the defense of Israel's actions or to cancel any potential censure against Israel. You may not call that a lie, but I was raised me to believe that if you are not being honest, you are lying. I suspect you were raised the exact same way, but are too pigheaded to admit one of your allies in this debate has been exposed as a fraud, and goes against your value system.

[Azure]

Because he attempted to shroud the truth of that facts. He did indeed acknowledge that US had vetoed only 11 resolutions since '96, but he failed to acknowledge that there have only been 12 vetoed resolutions in that time frame all together. Wow! Big differerence there when that information is placed in the proper context now, isn't there.

Still doesn't mean he lied. The information may have been deceitful, but I doubt that he wanted to present it in such a manner.

Then, to make matters even more confusing he tossed out the information about the Russians/Soviets having used the most vetos in the UN's history, showing there was a disproportionate number of vetos compared to those done by the United States. But when those are put into proper context, and the truth of the matter is exposed, we find that since 1965, the Soviets used only 13 vetos, the Russians used only 3, and the Americans used 81.

Again, still not a lie. He wasn't mentioning a timeframe, or anything of that sort. Just directly refering to how many veto's the US had used compared to other countries.

I agree that timeframe has a lot to do with it.

Again, a huge difference in what the story really is. And then, to top it all off, he stated, and I am quoting him directly, "So it's not like they are VETOing everthing that might be against Israel", which is a bold faced lie. All but one resolution the USA has vetoed has been in the defense of Israel's actions or to cancel any potential censure against Israel.

And? Why shouldn't the US veto a resolution that goes against probably their best ally?

Just like the Soviet Union vetoed anything that went against their allies, the US has the same right.


You may not call that a lie, but I was raised me to believe that if you are not being honest, you are lying. I suspect you were raised the exact same way, but are too pigheaded to admit one of your allies in this debate has been exposed as a fraud, and goes against your value system.


If he would lied, the information that he provided would have been WRONG.

You're just looking at it a different way.

[peter12]

Then we are not going to see a solution to the problem any time in the future. The people FREELY elected Hamas as their representatives. They speak for the people. Complete refusal just gives them the credability to the stance that they are looking for.

Alright fair enough. What would you say if the people of Germany elected the Nazi party, which in a few years time started enacting one of their big policies, the elimination of Europe's "lesser races"?

Do you just stand back and watch it happen?

[spiteface]

I suggest you become more educated in the rules of war before you mention stupid comments.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm (http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm)

Many of the prisoners, and the ones Hizbollah were asking for, are women and children.

Negotiations include indirect intervention of the USA and Lebanese govts to try and alleviate the escalation and then perhaps disarm Hizbollah properly. This issue cannot be controlled on its own with the two direct parties alone. And if it isn't eased then this could turn into a massive war between West vs Middle East.

[peter12]

Many of the prisoners, and the ones Hizbollah were asking for, are women and children.

Negotiations include indirect intervention of the USA and Lebanese govts to try and alleviate the escalation and then perhaps disarm Hizbollah properly. This issue cannot be controlled on its own with the two direct parties alone. And if it isn't eased then this could turn into a massive war between West vs Middle East.

You mean a massive war between the extremists and the West.

In that case, bring it on.

[spiteface]

Easy there, captain america. Extremists in the eye of an ignorant observer from the West perhaps. Don't always think you're view on life is the only and accepted one.

[peter12]

Easy there, captain america. Extremists in the eye of an ignorant observer from the West perhaps. Don't always think you're view on life is the only and accepted one.

No, you're right. It's okay to yearn for the Second Holocaust or to subject women to the role of property. We should all stand by and let that happen.

[Lucky boy]

No, you're right. It's okay to yearn for the Second Holocaust or to subject women to the role of property. We should all stand by and let that happen.

Yep, Isreal for once and for all is freeing all the woman from oppression. :(

Looks like this thread is no longer capable of debate.

[spiteface]

No, you're right. It's okay to yearn for the Second Holocaust or to subject women to the role of property. We should all stand by and let that happen.

Please tell me you didn't say that.

What are you, 12?

[peter12]

Please tell me you didn't say that.

What are you, 12?

No, don't you understand... I was agreeing with you.

This thread has been hijacked by poorly informed and semi-racist posters. Unbelievable. Do you have a thread of rationality running through your brain?

[blankall]

I don't see why Israel has any obligation to listen to the UN.

Doesnt it seem kind of odd to anyone that there are so many anti-Israel resolutions in the first place. You may not agree w/ Israel's policies, but look at all the other things going on the world including: millions displaced in Darfur w/ hundreds of thousands dead, hundreds of thousands dead, Chechnya, Kashmir, Tibet, etc.... Israel recieves more attention than these problems combined....

The reason why there have been so many anti-Israeli resolutions is that the muslim states in the UN number 57. Together w/ there trading partners they can pass any resolution they wish. Israel should not be forced to comply w/ there demands simply because they are outnumbered.

Furthermore, the UN is influenced heavily by the arab oil block. This forces many "abstaining votes". The kind commonly recieved by European states.

Unless the UN can demonstrate it is an effective and non-biased organization, I don't see why anyone should be bound to its decisions.

[if.away]

The people FREELY elected Hamas as their representatives. They speak for the people. Complete refusal just gives them the credability to the stance that they are looking for. Israel should have been smart, acknowledged the new government, attempted to negotiate with the assistance of moderates on both sides (say Egypt and Switzerland as picking two countries out of the hat). That would have placed the onus on Hamas to act like the government they were elected to be. Any issues Israel had could have been officially lodged with the moderates and responded accordingly using what was deemed as fair force.

Just because the people freely elected Hamas doesn't mean Hamas should get credibility and respect from the international community. It also doesn’t legitimizes Hamas’ extreme and violent ideology. We've seen this happen many times, especially in SA and with their Apartheid policy. Sure, you're officially elected but that doesn't give you the right to promote an extremist agenda nor it gives you some special automatic right to be respected. Other countries recognize your officially elected representatives but at the same time impose sanctions and penalties on you until there is a policy change.

Hamas is nothing more than a stubborn terrorist group that got too far up for their own good and doesn't have the know how to play the game in the new league. They were given the opportunity to act like a responsible governing body and renounce their extreme agenda yet they refused. From that point on, as you most likely know, the EU, US and Israel pretty much decided that Hamas is nothing more than a terrorist group that isn't worth dealing with. It's not just Israel that is blocking assets but the EU and a host of other nations.

It is also interesting to note that Hamas was given a 2nd chance to INDIRECTLY recognize Israel's right to exist while still holding on to their unchanged constitution. They also made sure to block this attempt by canceling Abass' "surprise" referendum. This is global scale politics in an extremely volatile region not some children's game based on stubbornness. How many times should Hamas be given the chance to straighten their act up and act like the democratically elected government they were supposed to be?

[Lucky boy]

I don't see why Israel has any obligation to listen to the UN.
...
Unless the UN can demonstrate it is an effective and non-biased organization, I don't see why anyone should be bound to its decisions.

The UN approved the creation of Isreal in 1948. Isreal owes its existance to the UN.

[blankall]

The UN approved the creation of Isreal in 1948. Isreal owes its existance to the UN.

Then maybe you can use a time machine and bring the UN of 1948 to this era, because the current version isn't doing its job.

[White Doors]

Here's hoping Israel can wipe HizBollah and Hamas off the map. Kill them all.

[if.away]

I don't see why Israel has any obligation to listen to the UN.

They don't. What's ridiculous is that the other counties crying foul in the UN have resolutions against them yet they couldn't care less. Why isn't the arab world united or at least speaking out against Iran despite the whole international pressure created at the UN? Why are Syria and Lebanon completely ignorant of the resolutions against them? There were tons of resolutions passed against Iraq but those too were ignored. Seems that the arab world believes that resolutions are supposed to be valid only against your enemy yet irrelevant against yourself. But hey, hating Israel is the coolest thing to do in the Middle East and all over the world.

I guess Israel realized that the UN is nothing more than an impotent farce and a front for other nations to criticize them diplomatically. When faced with a choice between fighting for your survival or appeasing countries which hate you and will always hate you regardless of your actions I'm pretty sure what choice all of us would make.

[Lucky boy]

It is also interesting to note that Hamas was given a 2nd chance to INDIRECTLY recognize Israel's right to exist while still holding on to their unchanged constitution.
...
How many times should Hamas be given the chance to straighten their act up and act like the democratically elected government they were supposed to be?

Agreed for the most part. Many of the middle eastern political experts on both sides (Arab/West) believed that once Hamas gained political power, they gradually move away from their military wing and focus on politics. They had already observed a year long cease-fire with Isreal prior to their election. Just to re-iterate what was mentioned earlier in this thread, Hamas was primarly elected by the people of palestine so they could clean up the corruption in the Palestinian government, not to start a war with Isreal. However, Hamas didn't back down from their stance to "resist occupataion" and they also failed to recognize Isreal right to exist. Opposers can argue that they weren't given much time to back down from their constitution, and the immediate cut-off in aid didn't help either, but I believe they didn't really show much of an initiative to peace with Isreal.

[spiteface]

No, don't you understand... I was agreeing with you.

This thread has been hijacked by poorly informed and semi-racist posters. Unbelievable. Do you have a thread of rationality running through your brain?

If it was sarcasm i didn't pick up on it, my bad.

[blankall]

if.away,

I totally agree w/ you. It's disgusting we have countries like Saudi Arabia, who ban publicly practicing other religions, passing human rights resolution. Lybia has banned political parties since 1972 and is the head of the Human Rights Commission......

It blows my mind that people could ever support an oganization that would allow a country w/ a track record like lybia to the head of the Human Rights Commision.....

The UN is nothing more than a mouth piece for anyone who wants to express anti-US or anti-Israeli sentiment. Until it takes a realistic stance on issues and starts devouting its attention fairly, it should be ignored.

[Caramel]

The biggest problem is the creation of Israel, and now everyone is paying for it, including Israels big brother the United States. The Americans and the British did a great injustice when they took land away from Palestine and, created Israel. Now its not all the Americans just backing them, it was also backed by the British and Russians, and opposed by all the arabs. War there was justified when the they immediatley went in and started attacks on them. The worst part is the Americans back Israel, giving them billions in funding, and weapons.

Israel has crippled a already fargile country, that had nothing to do with the abuduction of 2 jew soldiers. Thats a great move by Israel start bombarding a country because 2 soliders got kidnapped. What about the prisoners that Israel takes captive? They want Hezbullah out, well then go for Hezbullah, why are they attacking innocient people, bombing road ways out of the country, and airports? What is the point of that? They want the Lebanese government to take out Hezbullah, yet the government is fragile, and have nothing to work with, when they have asked for help to rid of them, the Americans talk about how Israel is defending themselves.

This is a disgusting act, and the only way for things to be resolved is Israel being wiped off the map. Why are these attacks happening on the US, its not beacuse of that garbage George Bush talks about, its because of the support of Israel, and how they let such a great injustice go on, and support it with money and weapons that are in turn hitting the arab nations. You can add George Bush's name to the list of terrorists that need to be taken out. I ashamed that I once wanted Stephen Harper to be our Prime Minsister, he is nothing but a monkey. He knows nothing, hes a complete idiot, and we need to ge thim out of power as quick as possible. He comes to a quick conclusion that these attacks are justified, when he knows nothing about what is going on. All he knows is his boyfriend George Bush supports it so its all good. What a complete fool, this guy could be a reason our country is a target of these extremist.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Then we are not going to see a solution to the problem any time in the future. The people FREELY elected Hamas as their representatives. They speak for the people. Complete refusal just gives them the credability to the stance that they are looking for.

Alright fair enough. What would you say if the people of Germany elected the Nazi party, which in a few years time started enacting one of their big policies, the elimination of Europe's "lesser races"?

Do you just stand back and watch it happen?

Does this "lesser race" you make an allusion to have the strongest military in the region and possess nukes? If that is indeed the case I take an active role in protecting Germany from getting its ass kicked! Jesus, this is like watching a couple guys in a bar jarring at each other, one of which is a little guy, wearing a pocket protector and dragging his laptop around with him, and the other guy is 6'6" 280 pound monster who has an openned can of whoop-ass in his backpocket. I'm going to try and play peace-keeper here and convince them they should be quietly sipping their beers and trying to get along. Both have a lot to lose from going out in the parking lot and going at it.

[Azure]

Many of the prisoners, and the ones Hizbollah were asking for, are women and children.

Negotiations include indirect intervention of the USA and Lebanese govts to try and alleviate the escalation and then perhaps disarm Hizbollah properly. This issue cannot be controlled on its own with the two direct parties alone. And if it isn't eased then this could turn into a massive war between West vs Middle East.

Okay, I'll explain it again. Under the Geneva convention, a country that has POW in their custody, is REQUIRED to retain those prisoners until the war is over.

It doesn't matter WHO the prisoners are, but the fact is, they are POW.

And if you want War between the West and Middle East, bring it on, we'll see how far your hero's get.

[Azure]

Easy there, captain america. Extremists in the eye of an ignorant observer from the West perhaps. Don't always think you're view on life is the only and accepted one.

I think anyone that walks into a crowded market place and blows themself up would be considered an extremist.

[White Doors]

The biggest problem is the creation of Israel, and now everyone is paying for it, including Israels big brother the United States. The Americans and the British did a great injustice when they took land away from Palestine and, created Israel. Now its not all the Americans just backing them, it was also backed by the British and Russians, and opposed by all the arabs. War there was justified when the they immediatley went in and started attacks on them. The worst part is the Americans back Israel, giving them billions in funding, and weapons.

Israel has crippled a already fargile country, that had nothing to do with the abuduction of 2 jew soldiers. Thats a great move by Israel start bombarding a country because 2 soliders got kidnapped. What about the prisoners that Israel takes captive? They want Hezbullah out, well then go for Hezbullah, why are they attacking innocient people, bombing road ways out of the country, and airports? What is the point of that? They want the Lebanese government to take out Hezbullah, yet the government is fragile, and have nothing to work with, when they have asked for help to rid of them, the Americans talk about how Israel is defending themselves.

This is a disgusting act, and the only way for things to be resolved is Israel being wiped off the map. Why are these attacks happening on the US, its not beacuse of that garbage George Bush talks about, its because of the support of Israel, and how they let such a great injustice go on, and support it with money and weapons that are in turn hitting the arab nations. You can add George Bush's name to the list of terrorists that need to be taken out. I ashamed that I once wanted Stephen Harper to be our Prime Minsister, he is nothing but a monkey. He knows nothing, hes a complete idiot, and we need to ge thim out of power as quick as possible. He comes to a quick conclusion that these attacks are justified, when he knows nothing about what is going on. All he knows is his boyfriend George Bush supports it so its all good. What a complete fool, this guy could be a reason our country is a target of these extremist.

Well shall we call you a terrorist? You pretty much summed up their manifesto's. The only thing sick going on is the lengths to which people legitimize these terrorist animals. Please add 'terrorist supporter' in your signature.

[Azure]

The UN approved the creation of Isreal in 1948. Isreal owes its existance to the UN.

Then maybe the UN should do something about those countries/groups that want to get rid of Israel, don't you think?

Or right, I'm a tool so you won't respond to me. :rolleyes:

[White Doors]

If that guy thinks your a tool then you are in good company.

[Azure]

The biggest problem is the creation of Israel, and now everyone is paying for it, including Israels big brother the United States. The Americans and the British did a great injustice when they took land away from Palestine and, created Israel. Now its not all the Americans just backing them, it was also backed by the British and Russians, and opposed by all the arabs. War there was justified when the they immediatley went in and started attacks on them. The worst part is the Americans back Israel, giving them billions in funding, and weapons.

Israel has crippled a already fargile country, that had nothing to do with the abuduction of 2 jew soldiers. Thats a great move by Israel start bombarding a country because 2 soliders got kidnapped. What about the prisoners that Israel takes captive? They want Hezbullah out, well then go for Hezbullah, why are they attacking innocient people, bombing road ways out of the country, and airports? What is the point of that? They want the Lebanese government to take out Hezbullah, yet the government is fragile, and have nothing to work with, when they have asked for help to rid of them, the Americans talk about how Israel is defending themselves.

This is a disgusting act, and the only way for things to be resolved is Israel being wiped off the map. Why are these attacks happening on the US, its not beacuse of that garbage George Bush talks about, its because of the support of Israel, and how they let such a great injustice go on, and support it with money and weapons that are in turn hitting the arab nations. You can add George Bush's name to the list of terrorists that need to be taken out. I ashamed that I once wanted Stephen Harper to be our Prime Minsister, he is nothing but a monkey. He knows nothing, hes a complete idiot, and we need to ge thim out of power as quick as possible. He comes to a quick conclusion that these attacks are justified, when he knows nothing about what is going on. All he knows is his boyfriend George Bush supports it so its all good. What a complete fool, this guy could be a reason our country is a target of these extremist.

Man you have credibility, especially with your hatred for the US.

Come back when you can post without being anti-US, or Anti-Israel.

[Azure]

If that guy thinks your a tool then you are in good company.

Yeah, I know.

First he was saying how he wants to make the thread civil and bring it back on track, then the very next sentance he called me a tool.

Hilarious. :w00t:

[Caramel]

I dont support terrorist, thats why im against George Bush and his government, and thats where this country is headed with the horrible leadership of Stephen Harper. I hate how you people have one sided views, and don't do your research and jump to conclusions like our dumb prime minster. You sit there and what CNN, and be ohhhh geezzz yeah stupid Lebanon, go Israel kill thoose children, and the mothers and fathers. Understand whats going on, there is two sides to the story, and this conflict has been going on much longer then yesterday, it all started with the creation of Israel.

[Bleeding Red]

The biggest problem is the creation of Israel, and now everyone is paying for it, including Israels big brother the United States. The Americans and the British did a great injustice when they took land away from Palestine and, created Israel.

Again - The majority of British Mandate Paletine given to the Jewish people to establish a homeland was uninhabited dessert. Pre-48 Kibuttzes were purchased from absentee landowners (primarily living in Syria) at market value. The UN partitioned the area based primarly on population.

Israel has crippled a already fargile country, that had nothing to do with the abuduction of 2 jew soldiers.

I guess if the soldiers were Druze, Muslim or Christian is would then be justified. (Druze, Muslim, and Christian citizens have the option of not serving in the IDF - most don't, some do.)


Thats a great move by Israel start bombarding a country because 2 soliders got kidnapped. Don't forget the rockets going the other way.

They want Hezbullah out, well then go for Hezbullah, why are they attacking innocient people, bombing road ways out of the country, and airports? What is the point of that? They want the Lebanese government to take out Hezbullah, yet the government is fragile, and have nothing to work with, when they have asked for help to rid of them, the Americans talk about how Israel is defending themselves.

Did you skip the last 12 pages of posts?

This is a disgusting act, and the only way for things to be resolved is Israel being wiped off the map.

Way to negotiate for peace.

[Kobasew fan]

The biggest problem is the creation of Israel, and now everyone is paying for it, including Israels big brother the United States. The Americans and the British did a great injustice when they took land away from Palestine and, created Israel. Now its not all the Americans just backing them, it was also backed by the British and Russians, and opposed by all the arabs. War there was justified when the they immediatley went in and started attacks on them. The worst part is the Americans back Israel, giving them billions in funding, and weapons.

Israel has crippled a already fargile country, that had nothing to do with the abuduction of 2 jew soldiers. Thats a great move by Israel start bombarding a country because 2 soliders got kidnapped. What about the prisoners that Israel takes captive? They want Hezbullah out, well then go for Hezbullah, why are they attacking innocient people, bombing road ways out of the country, and airports? What is the point of that? They want the Lebanese government to take out Hezbullah, yet the government is fragile, and have nothing to work with, when they have asked for help to rid of them, the Americans talk about how Israel is defending themselves.

This is a disgusting act, and the only way for things to be resolved is Israel being wiped off the map. Why are these attacks happening on the US, its not beacuse of that garbage George Bush talks about, its because of the support of Israel, and how they let such a great injustice go on, and support it with money and weapons that are in turn hitting the arab nations. You can add George Bush's name to the list of terrorists that need to be taken out. I ashamed that I once wanted Stephen Harper to be our Prime Minsister, he is nothing but a monkey. He knows nothing, hes a complete idiot, and we need to ge thim out of power as quick as possible. He comes to a quick conclusion that these attacks are justified, when he knows nothing about what is going on. All he knows is his boyfriend George Bush supports it so its all good. What a complete fool, this guy could be a reason our country is a target of these extremist.

Whoa. Man I hope you realize how rediculous and racist you sound.:eek: Maybe you should realize that no country deserves to be "wiped of the map"

[if.away]

Does this "lesser race" you make an allusion to have the strongest military in the region and possess nukes?

Why does everyone in every thread bring up the prospect of nukes and talks of them like nuclear war is right around the corner? Not only they have been successfully used as a deterrent for the past 50 years but Israel has NEVER threatened anyone of their enemies with nukes at any point in their history. Technically they don't even acknowledge them. Israel have also made it clear and have it as a policy that in any military action they will not be the first country to use nukes and their use will only be in retaliation to a non-conventional attack.

Now if you look a thousand KMs to Israel's east you'll see a country that doesn't have nukes yet but has already threatened their use and is sabre-rattling like mad while promising hell on earth and other scary sounding figure of speeches. Shouldn't that be more worrying and be given more attention instead of bringing Israel's nukes and a nuclear war that would never make sense into every single ME thread?

[blankall]

The biggest problem is the creation of Israel, and now everyone is paying for it, including Israels big brother the United States. The Americans and the British did a great injustice when they took land away from Palestine and, created Israel. Now its not all the Americans just backing them, it was also backed by the British and Russians, and opposed by all the arabs. War there was justified when the they immediatley went in and started attacks on them. The worst part is the Americans back Israel, giving them billions in funding, and weapons.

Israel has crippled a already fargile country, that had nothing to do with the abuduction of 2 jew soldiers. Thats a great move by Israel start bombarding a country because 2 soliders got kidnapped. What about the prisoners that Israel takes captive? They want Hezbullah out, well then go for Hezbullah, why are they attacking innocient people, bombing road ways out of the country, and airports? What is the point of that? They want the Lebanese government to take out Hezbullah, yet the government is fragile, and have nothing to work with, when they have asked for help to rid of them, the Americans talk about how Israel is defending themselves.

This is a disgusting act, and the only way for things to be resolved is Israel being wiped off the map. Why are these attacks happening on the US, its not beacuse of that garbage George Bush talks about, its because of the support of Israel, and how they let such a great injustice go on, and support it with money and weapons that are in turn hitting the arab nations. You can add George Bush's name to the list of terrorists that need to be taken out. I ashamed that I once wanted Stephen Harper to be our Prime Minsister, he is nothing but a monkey. He knows nothing, hes a complete idiot, and we need to ge thim out of power as quick as possible. He comes to a quick conclusion that these attacks are justified, when he knows nothing about what is going on. All he knows is his boyfriend George Bush supports it so its all good. What a complete fool, this guy could be a reason our country is a target of these extremist.

How did they take land away from the Palestinians during their founding. A palestinian state has never existed. If the arabs in the region had not attacked Israel on it's founding not one single Palestinian would have ever been displaced...

Its arguments like "the only way for things to be resolved is Israel being wiped off the map" that force Israel to take the actions it does.

For the record americans gave Israel about 2.5 billion in aid this year, but gave surrounding arab nations over 12 billion. I also think Stephen Harper is well educated on international events...

[jolinar of malkshor]

Because he attempted to shroud the truth of that facts. He did indeed acknowledge that US had vetoed only 11 resolutions since '96, but he failed to acknowledge that there have only been 12 vetoed resolutions in that time frame all together. Wow! Big differerence there when that information is placed in the proper context now, isn't there. Then, to make matters even more confusing he tossed out the information about the Russians/Soviets having used the most vetos in the UN's history, showing there was a disproportionate number of vetos compared to those done by the United States. But when those are put into proper context, and the truth of the matter is exposed, we find that since 1965, the Soviets used only 13 vetos, the Russians used only 3, and the Americans used 81. Again, a huge difference in what the story really is. And then, to top it all off, he stated, and I am quoting him directly, "So it's not like they are VETOing everthing that might be against Israel", which is a bold faced lie. All but one resolution the USA has vetoed has been in the defense of Israel's actions or to cancel any potential censure against Israel. You may not call that a lie, but I was raised me to believe that if you are not being honest, you are lying. I suspect you were raised the exact same way, but are too pigheaded to admit one of your allies in this debate has been exposed as a fraud, and goes against your value system.

If I lied I would have said something like: The US has only used 11 Vetos in the last 40 years and Russia used 25 in the last 40 years. I didn't my figures where factually correct and thats not a lie. I can't help that you misinturpreted them. True 10 of the 11 VETO's are in regards to Israely situations but as I stated before during that time period there were over 600 resolutions made by the counsil. So maybe they used there VETO 10 time with regards to 150 situations. I don't know what it is because I don't have the time to look at every resloution issued during that time period.

What I will admit is that I didn't go and look what those VETO's were for. I simply took them off the chart that the website provided. It gave what countries VETO'd in what year.

All I have to say Lanny is your lucky we arn't arguing face to face because if anyone ever called me a lier face to face, things would get nasty. You have some kind of problem inwhich you think every person or government is lieing to you.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Whoa. Man I hope you realize how rediculous and racist you sound.:eek: Maybe you should realize that no country deserves to be "wiped of the map"

They are attacking civilians because that is where Hezbollah is hiding out. You should be mad at Hexbollah

[jolinar of malkshor]

I dont support terrorist, thats why im against George Bush and his government, and thats where this country is headed with the horrible leadership of Stephen Harper. I hate how you people have one sided views, and don't do your research and jump to conclusions like our dumb prime minster. You sit there and what CNN, and be ohhhh geezzz yeah stupid Lebanon, go Israel kill thoose children, and the mothers and fathers. Understand whats going on, there is two sides to the story, and this conflict has been going on much longer then yesterday, it all started with the creation of Israel.

WHAT????

Steven Harper has done more for this country then the last two prime ministers and 13 years of rule. What exactly has Steven Harper done that makes you so mad? Clam down on terrorist organizations? I am biggining to think your in collution with them.

[jolinar of malkshor]

I dont support terrorist, thats why im against George Bush and his government, and thats where this country is headed with the horrible leadership of Stephen Harper. I hate how you people have one sided views, and don't do your research and jump to conclusions like our dumb prime minster. You sit there and what CNN, and be ohhhh geezzz yeah stupid Lebanon, go Israel kill thoose children, and the mothers and fathers. Understand whats going on, there is two sides to the story, and this conflict has been going on much longer then yesterday, it all started with the creation of Israel.

I guess that is why he is stopping to pick up some evacuees. He must be such a bad guy.

Harper to Bring Home Evacuees on Government Plane
PM Stephen Harper is flying to Larnaka, Cyprus (where the main airport for the Greek side of the island is) to pick up 120 evacuees and bring them home on his personal government plane. I'm not sure if this is in response to some criticism the government has been under recently, but even then- its an honourable move and, quite honestly, common sense given the fact that he is currently in France anyways.

Thought it was interesting. Here's the link.

http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Alberta/...9/1692299.html (http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Alberta/2006/07/19/1692299.html)

[Robbob]

Not meaning to make this into a canadian political **** fest but I don't understand why people hate Harper so much. All this talk about him wanting to turn Canada into the USA is rediculous. He at least is taking the initative in a minority government to take the country forward. Like a previous poster said, the current government has down more in the short time in office then the previous over a number of years.

[Agamemnon]

Then maybe the UN should do something about those countries/groups that want to get rid of Israel, don't you think?

Or right, I'm a tool so you won't respond to me. :rolleyes:
I'm surprised you didn't whip out the anti-Semetic brush to paint that post broadly. The post was against Israel... so the poster is anti-Semetic, right? They're a bigoted racist, no?

[Regorium]

Man you have credibility, especially with your hatred for the US.

Come back when you can post without being anti-US, or Anti-Israel.

This post sums up why YOU have no credibility. Every single post you're insulting people sympathezing with Lebanon as "sick, twisted people that hate the US/Israel".

Come back when you're not so anti-Lebanon.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

All I have to say Lanny is your lucky we arn't arguing face to face because if anyone ever called me a lier face to face, things would get nasty. You have some kind of problem inwhich you think every person or government is lieing to you.

Oooooh, an internet tough guy! Trust me sister, I've stared down more intimidating people than you'll ever imagine. You're little threats do nothing but make me laugh.

You are 100% right, I think most people are full of ****. You say I have a problem because I think this way, but it was my belief that you were lying that made me do my own research and expose you for the fraud you are. I was told a long time ago to trust no one, and unless you have the same blood as me flowing through your veins I don't trust you as far as I can hit a golf ball.

[peter12]

I dont support terrorist, thats why im against George Bush and his government, and thats where this country is headed with the horrible leadership of Stephen Harper. I hate how you people have one sided views, and don't do your research and jump to conclusions like our dumb prime minster. You sit there and what CNN, and be ohhhh geezzz yeah stupid Lebanon, go Israel kill thoose children, and the mothers and fathers. Understand whats going on, there is two sides to the story, and this conflict has been going on much longer then yesterday, it all started with the creation of Israel.

You know, I talked just like you when I was in grade 11. I am kind of embarassed of that. You should be too.

It actually all started when the Arab states of 1948 wanted to start a second genocide against the Israeli people. I think you would understand that wouldn't be so popular among Israelis. (Keep in mind there are 100s of thousands of Arabs that live in Israel).

You do... believe in the Holocaust... right?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

You know, I talked just like you when I was in grade 11. I am kind of embarassed of that. You should be too.

It actually all started when the Arab states of 1948 wanted to start a second genocide against the Israeli people. I think you would understand that wouldn't be so popular among Israelis. (Keep in mind there are 100s of thousands of Arabs that live in Israel).

You do... believe in the Holocaust... right?

Why do you keep bringing up the holocost and Nazi Germany? What do they have to do with the subject at hand?

Now why would Arabs be ****ed and want to lashout at Israel around 1948? Couldn't be that the Arabs were klicked off their land to create a country that had never existed prior to that? The UN robbed Peter (well, Mohammed actualy) to payback Paul (well, really Saul). I don't knw why they would develop any hard feelings at all! I mean, you got kicked out of your home, and someone who had no claim to it was given your home, wouldn't you be a little ****ed?

[peter12]

Why do you keep bringing up the holocost and Nazi Germany? What do they have to do with the subject at hand?

Now why would Arabs be ****ed and want to lashout at Israel around 1948? Couldn't be that the Arabs were klicked off their land to create a country that had never existed prior to that? The UN robbed Peter (well, Mohammed actualy) to payback Paul (well, really Saul). I don't knw why they would develop any hard feelings at all! I mean, you got kicked out of your home, and someone who had no claim to it was given your home, wouldn't you be a little ****ed?

Lanny...

Don't you understand that the Holocaust is still at the basis of Israeli regional policy?
Don't you understand that the Holocaust is still at the basis of extreme Muslim states policy on Israel?

[spiteface]

Okay, I'll explain it again. Under the Geneva convention, a country that has POW in their custody, is REQUIRED to retain those prisoners until the war is over.

It doesn't matter WHO the prisoners are, but the fact is, they are POW.

And if you want War between the West and Middle East, bring it on, we'll see how far your hero's get.

First you call it a procedure to annhilate terrorists, now you call it a war. Make up your mind. If it's a war, then Hizbollah have every right to retaliate and capture Israeli soldiers trying to wreak havoc in Lebanese territory.

See, the sad thing is you wouldn't mind seeing a war where the people of the Middle East are destroyed. When you come from that form of thinking, then you my friend are a lost cause to humanity anywhere. Are you even Canadian?

[spiteface]

I think anyone that walks into a crowded market place and blows themself up would be considered an extremist.

How about cowards that fly above with F16s and take out buses carrying aid to Lebanese ppl with white flags hanging from their doors? Yes believe you me, this is what is happening right now this second in Lebanon. People speak of Holocaust, well this is a well-covert version of it.

[peter12]

First you call it a procedure to annhilate terrorists, now you call it a war. Make up your mind. If it's a war, then Hizbollah have every right to retaliate and capture Israeli soldiers trying to wreak havoc in Lebanese territory.

See, the sad thing is you wouldn't mind seeing a war where the people of the Middle East are destroyed. When you come from that form of thinking, then you my friend are a lost cause to humanity anywhere. Are you even Canadian?

I wouldn't mind a war in which the extremist Islamists are wiped from the face of the earth. And you know what, I'm pretty sure the people of the Middle East would be on side with that.

If this is war, then Israel is acting as a State, Hezbollah is acting as a terrorist group.

[Bleeding Red]

Now why would Arabs be ****ed and want to lashout at Israel around 1948? Couldn't be that the Arabs were klicked off their land to create a country that had never existed prior to that? The UN robbed Peter (well, Mohammed actualy) to payback Paul (well, really Saul). I don't knw why they would develop any hard feelings at all! I mean, you got kicked out of your home, and someone who had no claim to it was given your home, wouldn't you be a little ****ed?


Israel has been and always will be the homeland of the Jewish people.
Their 'claim' is an anceint one. The Israelite King David founded the city of Jerusalem, The Israelite King Solomon built the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.
The Israelite Kingdom is mentioned in ancient Egyptian and Babylonian tax records.

Jews have been living in Israel since Joshua lead them across the Jordan river. Our attachment to Israel goes beyond the Holocaust.

[peter12]

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/07/19/hezbollah_inspires_pride_and_disgust/

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150886029284&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/012/458pzije.asp

[Azure]

I dont support terrorist, thats why im against George Bush and his government, and thats where this country is headed with the horrible leadership of Stephen Harper. I hate how you people have one sided views, and don't do your research and jump to conclusions like our dumb prime minster. You sit there and what CNN, and be ohhhh geezzz yeah stupid Lebanon, go Israel kill thoose children, and the mothers and fathers. Understand whats going on, there is two sides to the story, and this conflict has been going on much longer then yesterday, it all started with the creation of Israel.

Oh God, the irony is incredible. "I don't suppor the terrorist, but I want Israel annexed."

:rolleyes:

[Azure]

I'm surprised you didn't whip out the anti-Semetic brush to paint that post broadly. The post was against Israel... so the poster is anti-Semetic, right? They're a bigoted racist, no?

Maybe next time I will. Especially when people start saying Hezbollah ISN'T a terrorist organization, and that Israel is at fault for everything that has happened.

[Azure]

This post sums up why YOU have no credibility. Every single post you're insulting people sympathezing with Lebanon as "sick, twisted people that hate the US/Israel".

Come back when you're not so anti-Lebanon.

No I don't insult people that support the citizens of Lebanon, I just find it sick that people will sympathize with a terrorist organization, and COMPLETELY blame Israel for everything that has happened, WITHOUT acknowledging that Hezbollah really started it all.

I believe that Israel will HELP Lebanon in the long run, as getting rid of Hezbollah IS a good thing.

[redforever]

The present situation is the result of "appeasement" which is never a short or long term solution to anything. If you keep on ignoring the situation, hoping it will go away, it wont, and eventually it becomes full blown as the situation is now. When you bury your head in the sand, it only says that you are refusing to actually see a situaion.

Israel has made major concessions in their search for peace. Part of what was once northern Israel was returned to Lebanon. What happened? The Hazbullah moved in there, only to be closer to bomb their intended target of Israel. And where did Hazbullah move in? Well they moved their rocket launchers, members of their terrorist organization into the homes of the civilians in Lebanon. Terrorists always do this, in the the hope that if violence does occur or escalate, then people in other parts of the world will be sickened by the fact that civilians are victims in the conflict. Israel has shown huge restraint for over 5 years but the kidnapping of their soldiers took the situation over the top. So why do you think civilians are now being killed in the conflict?

The Lebanese govt knows full well that the Hazbullah are a terrorist organization as does most of the democratized world. Lebanon has done nothing with them, and now they are so established in southern Lebanon that they have actually democratically elected Hazbullah members to their parliament. In other words, the terrorists now have become what some call "legitimized" through democratic electoral voting. Should Canada keep diplomatic relations with them, knowing full well they are a terrorist organization? Shall we try appeasement as the Liberals have done in the past, as the UN does, as Lebanon does?

On to the Gaza Strip. What has happened here? Well, Israel arranged for the relocation of its citizens out of that part of the country. Do you remember the circumstances of this relocation? Israel had to bring in their army, to move out their own citizens. Most of the Israeli people living there certainly did not go on their own volition. So, let's complete the scenario now.

Israel moved out of the Gaza strip, using military force against its own citizens, for what? their search for a peaceful state.

And what is the present scenario since that occurred? Well now some parts of Palestine have democratically elected the Hamas, another terrorist organization. And what has the balance of Palestine done? Absolutely nothing. And tell me, should Canada retain diplomatic relations with yet another known terrorist organization? Should Canada too try to appease this terrorist group?

So tell me, does appeasement work?

War of course is never a good answer to any situation or the best alternative, but if the only policy implemented is appeasement, then too often full blown war is the end result. One of the countries involved in the present conflict has bargained in pretty good faith over the last 4 or 5 years but guess what folks? You cant bargain with terrorists!!!

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Lanny...

Don't you understand that the Holocaust is still at the basis of Israeli regional policy?

No, I'm sorry, I don't. Please explain it to me. I do not see how an event that took place in Germany has any bearing on their regional policy. Last time I checked, there weren't many Nazi's hiding out in the middle east. I think its time Israel got over the Holocaust. It was tragic, it was appaulling, it was barbaric, but it was also 60+ years ago and in another part of the world.


Don't you understand that the Holocaust is still at the basis of extreme Muslim states policy on Israel?

No, I'm sorry, I don't. Please explain it to me. I do not see things that way at all. I see the Arabs being upset becaise their homes were taken away from them. They have been displaced. Unless you have been displaced I don't think you'll ever understand the feeling of dispare. I sympathize with anyone who was forced out of their home and harbor ill will against those who forced them out. I think this ill will is what sets the policy, not the holocaust.

[Azure]

Why do you keep bringing up the holocost and Nazi Germany? What do they have to do with the subject at hand?

Now why would Arabs be ****ed and want to lashout at Israel around 1948? Couldn't be that the Arabs were klicked off their land to create a country that had never existed prior to that? The UN robbed Peter (well, Mohammed actualy) to payback Paul (well, really Saul). I don't knw why they would develop any hard feelings at all! I mean, you got kicked out of your home, and someone who had no claim to it was given your home, wouldn't you be a little ****ed?

I know I would. Still doesn't give me ANY right to lash out with repeated terrorist attacks, numerous times, against that country.

What has been done, is done, and nothing will change that.

[Azure]

First you call it a procedure to annhilate terrorists, now you call it a war. Make up your mind. If it's a war, then Hizbollah have every right to retaliate and capture Israeli soldiers trying to wreak havoc in Lebanese territory.

I called it procedure? Where?

And whats the difference between that and war?

Plus, I never said that Hezbollah didn't have the "right" to capture Israeli soldiers, but by doing so they most also pay the consequences of war.

Don't you find it a bit ironic that Hezbollah, a group started to free Lebanon from Israeli control, is now forcing Israeli to do the exact thing they were fighting for not to happen?


See, the sad thing is you wouldn't mind seeing a war where the people of the Middle East are destroyed. When you come from that form of thinking, then you my friend are a lost cause to humanity anywhere. Are you even Canadian?


You're the one who first mentioned war between the ME and the West, right?

If it comes to that, bring it on.

[Azure]

How about cowards that fly above with F16s and take out buses carrying aid to Lebanese ppl with white flags hanging from their doors? Yes believe you me, this is what is happening right now this second in Lebanon. People speak of Holocaust, well this is a well-covert version of it.

Way to turn the conversation around.

You think Israeli is "trying" to hit innocent Lebanon civilians? Or is that the information you're being fed by a media that doesn't know how to do its job properly?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

I wouldn't mind a war in which the extremist Islamists are wiped from the face of the earth. And you know what, I'm pretty sure the people of the Middle East would be on side with that.

If this is war, then Israel is acting as a State, Hezbollah is acting as a terrorist group.

How about extremeist Jews too? Would that be fair? How about if all extremeists are wiped out? Do you think THAT is going to be the solution to repecting each other's differences?

[Azure]

No, I'm sorry, I don't. Please explain it to me. I do not see how an event that took place in Germany has any bearing on their regional policy. Last time I checked, there weren't many Nazi's hiding out in the middle east. I think its time Israel got over the Holocaust. It was tragic, it was appaulling, it was barbaric, but it was also 60+ years ago and in another part of the world.


Fair enough Lanny.

Then the Palenstinians should get over the land that was "stolen" from them too.

Don't you think?

[peter12]

How about extremeist Jews too? Would that be fair? How about if all extremeists are wiped out? Do you think THAT is going to be the solution to repecting each other's differences?

Do the extremist Jews have the degree of political and social power that extremist Muslims? No, because Israel is a free democracy.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Do the extremist Jews have the degree of political and social power that extremist Muslims? No, because Israel is a free democracy.

They have greater power! The have the ability to make wars happen for Christ sake!!! You don't think that guys with names like Abrams, Bernstein, Blakeman, Bolton, Brinker, Chertoff, Feith, Fleisher, Gottesman, Kurtzer, Lavin, Lefkowitz, Libby, Mehlman, Sembler, Silverstein, Sobel, Weinberg, Weiser, Wolfowitz, and Zakheim have any power? These are major players in the Bush Administration and consolodate his power. Add in guys like Perle, Luttwak, Kissinger, Adelman, Saltoff, Grossman, Haass, Zoellick, Schesinger, Cohen, Goldsmith, Gildenhorn, Gersten, Weinberger, etc. etc. etc., and you have more than any extremeist Islamist will ever have. When you have a direct pipeline to the guy who controls the worlds most powerful military, you have a great deal of power.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Fair enough Lanny.

Then the Palenstinians should get over the land that was "stolen" from them too.

Don't you think?

Yup, the minute reparations are metted. Once that is settled everyone should STFU for the rest of time!!!

[jolinar of malkshor]

Oooooh, an internet tough guy! Trust me sister, I've stared down more intimidating people than you'll ever imagine. You're little threats do nothing but make me laugh.

You are 100% right, I think most people are full of ****. You say I have a problem because I think this way, but it was my belief that you were lying that made me do my own research and expose you for the fraud you are. I was told a long time ago to trust no one, and unless you have the same blood as me flowing through your veins I don't trust you as far as I can hit a golf ball.

Your the only one on this site calling me a fraud and a lier. I think you are one of those people that walk around with tin foil in your hat so the government can't beam signals into your head.

[calculoso]

Yup, the minute reparations are metted. Once that is settled everyone should STFU for the rest of time!!!

You think that Israel should be paying reparations to Palestine?

Love it! Get attacked, beat your attacker, and then have to pay them afterwards? Sounds like a great way to guarantee attacks in the future... even when they lose they win!

[Azure]

Yup, the minute reparations are metted. Once that is settled everyone should STFU for the rest of time!!!

Right.

[Azure]

They have greater power! The have the ability to make wars happen for Christ sake!!! You don't think that guys with names like Abrams, Bernstein, Blakeman, Bolton, Brinker, Chertoff, Feith, Fleisher, Gottesman, Kurtzer, Lavin, Lefkowitz, Libby, Mehlman, Sembler, Silverstein, Sobel, Weinberg, Weiser, Wolfowitz, and Zakheim have any power? These are major players in the Bush Administration and consolodate his power. Add in guys like Perle, Luttwak, Kissinger, Adelman, Saltoff, Grossman, Haass, Zoellick, Schesinger, Cohen, Goldsmith, Gildenhorn, Gersten, Weinberger, etc. etc. etc., and you have more than any extremeist Islamist will ever have. When you have a direct pipeline to the guy who controls the worlds most powerful military, you have a great deal of power.]

Conpiracy theory!!!!

:w00t:

[Lucky boy]

I don't see why Israel has any obligation to listen to the UN.
...
Unless the UN can demonstrate it is an effective and non-biased organization, I don't see why anyone should be bound to its decisions.


The UN approved the creation of Isreal in 1948. Isreal owes its existance to the UN.

Then maybe the UN should do something about those countries/groups that want to get rid of Israel, don't you think?

Or right, I'm a tool so you won't respond to me. :rolleyes:


I'm surprised you didn't whip out the anti-Semetic brush to paint that post broadly. The post was against Israel... so the poster is anti-Semetic, right? They're a bigoted racist, no?


Maybe next time I will. Especially when people start saying Hezbollah ISN'T a terrorist organization, and that Israel is at fault for everything that has happened.

Where did I say Hezbollah isn't a terrorist organization. This is like the 10th time you have accused someone of saying something they didn't say.

[Azure]

Where did I say Hezbollah isn't a terrorist organization. This is like the 10th time you have accused someone of saying something they didn't say.

I never said you did, did I?

spiteface Hizbollah is a terrorist organization? And you're not another robot to the system eh... Label everything like you're used to hearing from the news don't ya. HIzbollah has freed Lebanon's south in 2000 and continues to battel for the Shebaa Farms.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Conpiracy theory!!!!

:w00t:

Yup, that's your answer for everything you don't agree with. Too bad there is more than enough documented proof to prove just how influential these gentlemen have been in the Bush Administration and taking the country to war under false pretenses.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

You think that Israel should be paying reparations to Palestine?

Love it! Get attacked, beat your attacker, and then have to pay them afterwards? Sounds like a great way to guarantee attacks in the future... even when they lose they win!

I think reparations work both ways. I think that the Palestinians deserve reparations for the loss of their homes. I think that those Israelis that suffered from a terrorist attack deserve reparations. Once it is all worked out, that's it, the whole thing should be considered done and everyone should move forward.

[calculoso]

I think reparations work both ways. I think that the Palestinians deserve reparations for the loss of their homes. I think that those Israelis that suffered from a terrorist attack deserve reparations. Once it is all worked out, that's it, the whole thing should be considered done and everyone should move forward.

I don't think Hamas / Hezbollah would ever go for that.

Israel would probably jump at it - they've done land for peace before - if there was some hard and fast guarantee that it would work.

[CaptainCrunch]

No, I'm sorry, I don't. Please explain it to me. I do not see how an event that took place in Germany has any bearing on their regional policy. Last time I checked, there weren't many Nazi's hiding out in the middle east. I think its time Israel got over the Holocaust. It was tragic, it was appaulling, it was barbaric, but it was also 60+ years ago and in another part of the world.

Funny story, but my mothers grandparents had to change thier names and flee Germany because of the holocaust. A fact that we didn't find out until after the death of my grandmother.

Its hard to forget about your 6 million of your ancestors becoming air pollution, its a major cultural sign post when as early as two generations ago, your religion was threatened with extinction.

Combine that with the fact that Irael was invaded within a short time of its creation by a alliance of countries founded on religion and the idealogy that your nation should be exterminated. Combine that with the obvious hostility of thier neighbours who have declared in thier charter that your evil and need to be exterminated.

So Lanny, respectfully as I always am. The Holocaust is something that forms a major mindset in Israel. Nobody came to help the Jews out when they were fleeing Germany, the average citizen turned a blind eye to it, and Stalin and other countries tried to emulate Germany's action. In Israel minds nobody can ever take advantage of them again, and nobody can be trusted to defend thier homeland except for themselves.

There's an old saying that in order to deal with your enemy, you have to know your enemy, The holocaust and thier history have formed how they interact with thier neighbours. Combine that with the actions of the Arab states and you can see why Israel is always concerned with thier defense.

[spiteface]

I never said you did, did I?

Did i ever say they weren't either? Please, if you want to argue, don't put words in other ppl's mouthes. At least come up with a definitive response on YOUR behalf.

But I will go on to say that the way Israel acts is indicative of absolute abuse of power in terrorizing Lebanon.

[Bleeding Red]

Yup, the minute reparations are metted. Once that is settled everyone should STFU for the rest of time!!!

Don't forget the 400,000 Jews who were expelled from arab countries with their property siezed after 1948. They get reparations too.

[Calgary Flames]

I find it unbeliveable that people actually see Israel as the bad guy from the get go...

[Agamemnon]

I find it unbeliveable that people actually see Israel as the bad guy from the get go...
I find it unbelievable that people actually think these events were 'the beginning' of the conflict. Nothing 'new' is going on out there, this stuff happens every 5-10 years.

Its not like 90% of people believe Israel is right and 10% side with the Palestinians. The Arab 'side' is not automatically wrong because they're fighters don't wear uniforms. It would take a few thousand pages of history text to figure out that both sides, at this point, are fairly equally responsible for the conflict.

But I'm sure there are many who have decided their position based on... well, the news, their parents, and their friends, I guess... pretty poor places to get the 'facts' from.

[jolinar of malkshor]

I find it unbelievable that people actually think these events were 'the beginning' of the conflict. Nothing 'new' is going on out there, this stuff happens every 5-10 years.

Its not like 90% of people believe Israel is right and 10% side with the Palestinians. The Arab 'side' is not automatically wrong because they're fighters don't wear uniforms. It would take a few thousand pages of history text to figure out that both sides, at this point, are fairly equally responsible for the conflict.

But I'm sure there are many who have decided their position based on... well, the news, their parents, and their friends, I guess... pretty poor places to get the 'facts' from.

I agree with you. IMO most of the Arabs don't want this crap it is just being sidetracked by these radicals.

[RougeUnderoos]

You think Israeli is "trying" to hit innocent Lebanon civilians? Or is that the information you're being fed by a media that doesn't know how to do its job properly?

Their "not trying to kill civilians" gameplan is killing a hell of a lot more civilians than Hezbollah's "trying to kill civilians" gameplan. Maybe the Israeli's should try a little harder, because I don't know if I'm convinced, and I pretty sure the people who are actually affected by this in Lebanon aren't convinced.

You seem like a worldly guy, so riddle me this: if a fighter plane fired a missile into your house and wiped out your whole family while you were out buying mints, would it make you feel better if they said "whoops, we thought someone else was in there"?

Me, I don't think it would make me feel better. Political leaders on the other side of the world saying "well, they didn't mean to do it, so they are justified in doing it" certainly wouldn't help.

I think that I just might want some revenge after something like that happened, and maybe I'd start to hang out with some people of a like mind.

[redforever]

So Lanny, respectfully as I always am. The Holocaust is something that forms a major mindset in Israel. Nobody came to help the Jews out when they were fleeing Germany, the average citizen turned a blind eye to it, and Stalin and other countries tried to emulate Germany's action. In Israel minds nobody can ever take advantage of them again, and nobody can be trusted to defend thier homeland except for themselves.



As I said earlier on, appeasement never works. The world should have found this out when Hitler was building his empire. All the major leaders of the democracized world thought, oh he wont really invade Poland, he wont really march into one country after the other. And nothing was done whatsoever and suddenly the world was in the middle of World War II. Too bad we never learned our lesson back then, you cant try to negotiate with mad people or terrorists and if you think the solution is to stand idly by and things will go away, then you are sadly mistaken.

It is too late to blame when war and invasion has already occurred. People have to step to the forefront early on instead of sticking their heads in the sand.

As my father always said, if you stand idly by when you know something is wrong, then you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Who knows what the solution is here, but one thing is for certain. You cant sit back and blame Israel for everything, when they are dealing with and reacting to the acts of terrorists.

[Nehkara]

It is a tragedy that civilians are being killed in Lebanon. If I was related to any of them or in a situation as you describe Rouge, I would be devastated and ****ed off.

That being said, I agree with the camp that says Israel isn't targetting civilians and all of the civilian casualties are collateral damage because Hezbollah operates in residential areas.

I'm not sure why people don't give Hezbollah more "credit". I mean... just because their weapons are relatively crude and have less ability to kill doesn't mean we should give them a free pass for trying to kill as many civilians as they can! They rained down 70 rockets on Nazareth today in the space of only one hour... that's over one per minute. They only managed to kill 3 people but I think people should be far more upset with Hezbollah than Israel.

[Hakan]

Do the extremist Jews have the degree of political and social power that extremist Muslims? No, because Israel is a free democracy.Jeez as a political science student I would have hoped for better coming from you Peter.

Fundamentalist-extremist parties in the Israeli Knesset have disproportional power. Setters and de-facto 'non-israelis' with perhaps the most extreme zionist views find themselves holding the balance between the Likud party (israel's already right party) and victory. Likud then moves even more to the extremist right in coalition building and in gaining support.

So in other words, your statement is quite wrong.

[RougeUnderoos]

It is a tragedy that civilians are being killed in Lebanon. If I was related to any of them or in a situation as you describe Rouge, I would be devastated and ****ed off.

That being said, I agree with the camp that says Israel isn't targetting civilians and all of the civilian casualties are collateral damage because Hezbollah operates in residential areas.

I'm not sure why people don't give Hezbollah more "credit". I mean... just because their weapons are relatively crude and have less ability to kill doesn't mean we should give them a free pass for trying to kill as many civilians as they can! They rained down 70 rockets on Nazareth today in the space of only one hour... that's over one per minute. They only managed to kill 3 people but I think people should be far more upset with Hezbollah than Israel.

I don't give anyone a free pass in this mess. They are all effed as far as I'm concerned. I give them Hezbollah boys full marks for being dumbass loons who started a fight that a bunch of innocent people are suffering through.

I also give Israel full marks for overreacting and beating the tar out of a foe that can't defend itself and, apparently, ignoring the fact that there is absolutely no doubt that this is going to come back and bite them in the ass. This disaster is one hell of a recruiting tool for the other side.

[Nehkara]

I don't give anyone a free pass in this mess. They are all effed as far as I'm concerned. I give them Hezbollah boys full marks for being dumbass loons who started a fight that a bunch of innocent people are suffering through.

I also give Israel full marks for overreacting and beating the tar out of a foe that can't defend itself and, apparently, ignoring the fact that there is absolutely no doubt that this is going to come back and bite them in the ass. This disaster is one hell of a recruiting tool for the other side.

I think Israel is tired of it. They're tired of the suicide bombings and tired of the rockets flying into their territory and tired of the kidnappings. Tired of cafes full of kids exploding.

This is what Olmert said the other day: "Citizens of Israel, there are moments in the life of a nation, when it is compelled to look directly into the face of reality and say: no more," he said.

"We are fighting for the right to normal life, like any individual, like any people, like any country, like any state."


I happen to agree with him.

[Azure]

Did i ever say they weren't either? Please, if you want to argue, don't put words in other ppl's mouthes. At least come up with a definitive response on YOUR behalf.

But I will go on to say that the way Israel acts is indicative of absolute abuse of power in terrorizing Lebanon.

You referred to them as freedom fighters, people that fight to get the "evil" Israel out of Lebanon.

Freedom fighters are NOT terrorists.

[Azure]

Their "not trying to kill civilians" gameplan is killing a hell of a lot more civilians than Hezbollah's "trying to kill civilians" gameplan. Maybe the Israeli's should try a little harder, because I don't know if I'm convinced, and I pretty sure the people who are actually affected by this in Lebanon aren't convinced.

Maybe you should look at the firepower at each side, and realize that Israel has the capability to do more damage then Hezbollah.

You seem like a worldly guy, so riddle me this: if a fighter plane fired a missile into your house and wiped out your whole family while you were out buying mints, would it make you feel better if they said "whoops, we thought someone else was in there"?

If I knew my area was a hotbed for terrorism, and KNEW that a certain nation would be targetting that area, I'd get the hell out.

No it wouldn't make me feel better, and I would probably get mad at whoever did it, but I don't live in a nation that supports and harbours terrorist groups, so you and I aren't in that position, are we?

Me, I don't think it would make me feel better. Political leaders on the other side of the world saying "well, they didn't mean to do it, so they are justified in doing it" certainly wouldn't help.

Still, collateral damage has been part of EVERY war since the start of mankind. No matter HOW good your technology is, innocent people will ALWAYS die.

Israel is not intending to kill innocent Lebanese civilians, while Hebollah is, yet fails miserably with every attack.

That to me is the deciding factor.


I think that I just might want some revenge after something like that happened, and maybe I'd start to hang out with some people of a like mind.


You trying to make me feel sympathetic for their cause?

[Azure]

I also give Israel full marks for overreacting and beating the tar out of a foe that can't defend itself and, apparently, ignoring the fact that there is absolutely no doubt that this is going to come back and bite them in the ass. This disaster is one hell of a recruiting tool for the other side.

What, they should go easier on them? Just because they can't DEFEND themselves?

[Azure]

Lebanon's Prime Minister Fouad Siniora just finished a live broadcast to his nation from Beirut.

Siniora denounced Israel, which he called "this savage war machine," but at no point in his address did he call for Hezbollah to put an immediate end to the hostilities it began, by returning the two kidnapped IDF soldiers.

Everyone still think the Lebanese government is innocent?

[Azure]

Sketchy reports are now coming in that Hezbollah leader Sheikh Nasrallah has been killed in an IAF airstrike.

IDF officials said dozens of aircrafts dropped 23 tons of explosives on the bunker. The officials said top Hezbollah figures were thought to be there, possibly including Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah.

The officials said the bunker was in the Bourj al-Barajneh neighborhood of southern Beirut.

However, Hezbollah said in a statement on Thursday that none of its leaders were killed during the strike. "Hezbollah denies that any of its leaders or personnel were killed during the latest bombardment...in the southern suburb," the group said in the statement.


Report from a different forum.

News is that even though the strike was in a residential area, it DID NOT kill any civilians.

EDIT: Added link...

Kind of an update to the situation...

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3278663,00.html

[Jayems]

Report from a different forum.

News is that even though the strike was in a residential area, it DID NOT kill any civilians.

EDIT: Added link...

Kind of an update to the situation...

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3278663,00.html
This, a similar story, from CNN.

I love this (from a Hezbollah press officer):

Hezbollah officials gave CNN access into the southern suburbs of Beirut -- the area thought to house the organization's headquarters -- to show the damage inflicted on civilians there...



...

"You never know when Israeli jet fighters come and hit any target in this area," Hussein Nabulsi, a Hezbollah press officer, said on the tour.
"It is very, very dangerous. We are now at the most dangerous place at the most dangerous moment."


"Where is the international community? Where is the Security Council? Where's the United Nations? Where's the whole world?" Nabulsi asked. "We are under fire."

I would guess exactly the same place they were when you were bombing, murdering and kidnapping soldiers.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/19/mideast/index.html

[Jayems]

Israel is not intending to kill innocent Lebanese civilians, while Hebollah is, yet fails miserably with every attack.

That to me is the deciding factor.


Bingo.

[RougeUnderoos]

Maybe you should look at the firepower at each side, and realize that Israel has the capability to do more damage then Hezbollah.


Since they have the capability to kill more civilians than they have been actually killed, that automatically means they aren't intending to kill civilians? I don't think I buy that line of reasoning, mostly because it doesn't make sense.

"Gee Officer, I guess I took fifty bucks out of that fellow's wallet, but he had over a thousand dollars in there so as you can plainly see I wasn't doing anything wrong".



No it wouldn't make me feel better, and I would probably get mad at whoever did it, but I don't live in a nation that supports and harbours terrorist groups, so you and I aren't in that position, are we?


No, luckily we are not in that position, but I don't know what that has to do with anything. You say you would be mad at whoever did it so obviously you have some amount of empathy but at the same time you seem to say "how dare they fight back"?



Still, collateral damage has been part of EVERY war since the start of mankind. No matter HOW good your technology is, innocent people will ALWAYS die.

How far do these goofy euphemisms go for actual human beings that are suffering? My guess is that they don't provide much comfort. What the hell does "collateral damage" mean to someone whose husband and kids are dead on the side of the highway?


You trying to make me feel sympathetic for their cause?

No I wasn't, but you did say you understand.

[Kobasew fan]

No, luckily we are not in that position, but I don't know what that has to do with anything. You say you would be mad at whoever did it so obviously you have some amount of empathy but at the same time you seem to say "how dare they fight back"?

Personally if I were in that position I would be upset that another country came in and blew up my house. I would also be as upset if not moreso with the terrorist group who first decided to kidnap army officers from the attacking country and then decided to hide out in my neighborhood which ultimately led to the attacking country coming in and blowing up my house.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Israel is not intending to kill innocent Lebanese civilians, while Hebollah is, yet fails miserably with every attack.

That to me is the deciding factor.

If Isreal is not intending to kill civilians, they are failing miserably with every attack as well.

You arguement seems to be:
Hezbollah is trying to kill civilians, but they're not good at it. Isreal is trying to not kill civilians, but they're not good at that either.:blink:

[jolinar of malkshor]

If Isreal is not intending to kill civilians, they are failing miserably with every attack as well.

You arguement seems to be:
Hezbollah is trying to kill civilians, but they're not good at it. Isreal is trying to not kill civilians, but they're not good at that either.:blink:

Yes and no. Israel IS doing a good job preventing casualties considering Hezbollah is operating in residential area's

[peter12]

Jeez as a political science student I would have hoped for better coming from you Peter.

Fundamentalist-extremist parties in the Israeli Knesset have disproportional power. Setters and de-facto 'non-israelis' with perhaps the most extreme zionist views find themselves holding the balance between the Likud party (israel's already right party) and victory. Likud then moves even more to the extremist right in coalition building and in gaining support.

So in other words, your statement is quite wrong.

Come on... you can't just make a blanket statement there and call me wrong.
Israeli politics is built upon coalition building and democratic negotiation. Yes, the right wing Hasidics do hold a balance of power, but in volatile Israeli system that doesn't mean nearly as much as it would in say Canada.

So I stand by my statement.

[Bleeding Red]

Jeez as a political science student I would have hoped for better coming from you Peter.

Fundamentalist-extremist parties in the Israeli Knesset have disproportional power. Setters and de-facto 'non-israelis' with perhaps the most extreme zionist views find themselves holding the balance between the Likud party (israel's already right party) and victory. Likud then moves even more to the extremist right in coalition building and in gaining support.

So in other words, your statement is quite wrong.

Jeez Hakan, if you are a political science student, I would have hoped for some up to date research.

The governing party is the Kadima party (mainly Sharon's party that split from Likud, to form a more centrist party). It formed a coalition with Labour, the Pensioners Party, and Shas (a religious based party).
Likud (14 seats) and United Torah Judaisim (6 seats) sit outside the government. Interestingly enough, the Arab parties have a combined 10 seats. The newest radical party - that ran on an election platform of "population transfer" (euphamisim for making all Arabs move to Arab countries) got 11 seats, mainly playing to the large Russian community in Israel.

So, the so-called settler's parties (Likud & UTJ) hold 20 of 120 seats. The centrists hold 67 seats - how do the extremists hold the balance of power in Israel then?

And please define "Defacto non-Israelis"? I am not sure who they are. Are they 'forgien settlers'? Recent immagrants? Jews living out side of Israel who donate money to "settlers' parties'?

[Bleeding Red]

Yes, the right wing Hasidics do hold a balance of power

Not any more so than the Arab parties, or the secular 'dove' parties, or the modern religious party, or the secular 'hawk' party, or the 'Russian community' party, etc....

[Lanny_MacDonald]

You referred to them as freedom fighters, people that fight to get the "evil" Israel out of Lebanon.

Freedom fighters are NOT terrorists.

Holy spin Batman! Now you're talking semantics. Terrorism is tactic, and may be used by any side at any time. As an example, "shock and awe" was meant to terrorize the people people of Iraq into laying down and welcoming the Americans as heros. It was a show of force, saying that we have the ability to reach out and do damage to you, which is the same as a suicide bomber walking into a crowded hotel and detonating his payload and his organization immediately taking responsibility. The difference is that one side wears uniforms and has trillions of dollars of arms at their disposal, and the other side scrapes together their weapons.

The term freedom fighter strictly depends on which side of the engagement you are on. The Mujahideen were freedom fighters when they were financed, supported and trained by the CIA, but when they were cast aside and fractured into two camps (the Northern Alliance and al Qaeda) they became terrorist organizations. Ironically, when the Northern Alliance became an alternative to the Taliban, they ceased to be a terror organization and became "a warring faction", which turned into an important ally again. Depending on what terminology you wish to apply to a group strictly depends on which side of an engagement you are on.

Maybe you should look at the firepower at each side, and realize that Israel has the capability to do more damage then Hezbollah.


Relevance? None. Having more firepower does not make one side more or less just, nor does it make their actions acceptable.

If I knew my area was a hotbed for terrorism, and KNEW that a certain nation would be targetting that area, I'd get the hell out.

So you admit to being a coward and not wanting to fight for a cause you believe in? I guess that is why you refused to answer any of the hypothical situations posed to you in regards to similiar circumstances and what you would do. You didn't want to expose your soft yellow under belly!

;)

I think this is a simplistic position as well. That's like saying the people that stayed behind in New Orleans deserved to die because they refused to heed the warnings of potential disaster. Many of the people that stayed behind had to stay. They could not afford to leave, didn't have the ability to leave, or just had no place to go. Bugging out is not an option for a lot of people. A lot of people are not prepared, nor have the assets to do what you suggest.

No it wouldn't make me feel better, and I would probably get mad at whoever did it, but I don't live in a nation that supports and harbours terrorist groups, so you and I aren't in that position, are we?

Refusal to walk a mile in someone else's shoes! Cop out. Classic dodge.

Still, collateral damage has been part of EVERY war since the start of mankind. No matter HOW good your technology is, innocent people will ALWAYS die.

So that makes it forgiveable?

Israel is not intending to kill innocent Lebanese civilians, while Hebollah is, yet fails miserably with every attack.

And you know this how? For a guy that doesn't talk about **** he doesn't know about, you talk a lot of **** about stuff you don't know about. You have no idea what the intentions of the Israelis are, and you have no idea what their intentions for collateral damage are. Just because they fly expensive jets and drop (supposed) laser guided bombs does not mean they are showing any more restraint or care for civilians. The fact that they are dropping bombs into civilian areas says to me that they don't give a rats ass about collateral damage and are just going after their targets of opportunity as they see fit. They may say one thing, but their actions indicate another.

That to me is the deciding factor.

No, I think the deciding factor is the side they claim to be on. I personally flip flop on the Israel/Palestine issue, depending on the actions of either side. There is no way you would ever support the Palestinian cause. If Israel lined up 10,000 women and children and publicly gunned them down you'd spin it as "a measured response to actions by Hamas and Hezbollah, and an effort to defend Israel from future generations of terrorists".


You trying to make me feel sympathetic for their cause?

I have a feeling the only way you would feel any sympathy for them is if they put on a uniform, drape themselves in the American flag, kiss King Dubya's ring, and swear allegance to the empire.

[calculoso]

So, the so-called settler's parties (Likud & UTJ) hold 20 of 120 seats. The centrists hold 67 seats - how do the extremists hold the balance of power in Israel then?

Probably in the same way that the NDP "hold the balance of power" in Canada.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Probably in the same way that the NDP "hold the balance of power" in Canada.

Or it could possibly be that like the American system, certain external entities hold the balance of power. Those that define policy are more powerful than those to implement it, especially if they are not accountable through oversight or election.

[Agamemnon]

You referred to them as freedom fighters, people that fight to get the "evil" Israel out of Lebanon.

Freedom fighters are NOT terrorists.
Doesn't that depend on your perspective? Wouldn't the early VietCong have been 'terrorists', though today they're (technically) regarded as freedom fighters? The line is never, ever blurred?

[Regorium]

Full scale invasion of Lebanon eh...
http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/mideast_conflict

Here's a non-north American article:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/syria/story/0,,1824750,00.html

Israel is going FAR beyond what it NEEDS to do to get rid of Hezbollah. This is beyond ridiculous. 57 dead civilians today.

[calculoso]

Israel is going FAR beyond what it NEEDS to do to get rid of Hezbollah. This is beyond ridiculous. 57 dead civilians today.

And how would you know what needs to happen to get rid of Hezbollah?

Lebanon can't (or won't) do it. US can't get rid of Al-Queda. UN (Canada incl) can't get rid of the Taliban. etc.

I'm guessing that it is a LOT harder to do than you think.

[Flame4Ever]

Lanny,

I just wanted to say that it is extremely rare to find somebody as informed as you about the situation in the Middle East as you are in Canada. I've seen far too many people being brainwashed by CNN that it's frustrating to discuss it with most people I meet.

I wanted to thank you for taking a wll thought out position on this matter. Personally, I'm not a big fan of Israel and have disliked them since they bombed my native land (Tunisia) in the 80s to destroy suspected PLO training camps.

While I dislike Israel, like you I flip flop over what happens in that area based on the actions of poth sides. I think you have reasonably argued why what Israel is doing right now is wrong in so many ways. It always pains me to here that a people who have suffered so much persecution can have so little regard for human life.

Aside from the people they have killed directly with their bombs, Israel will harm thousands more by destroying Lebanon's infrastructure and isolating Beirut.

[Regorium]

And how would you know what needs to happen to get rid of Hezbollah?

Lebanon can't (or won't) do it. US can't get rid of Al-Queda. UN (Canada incl) can't get rid of the Taliban. etc.

I'm guessing that it is a LOT harder to do than you think.

Well, fine. That was a poorly worded statement.

How's this? "Israel has gone far beyond what is acceptable in the international community." And I say international as in anywhere but North America.

As for getting rid of Hezbollah? A tactical nuclear strike is probably the only way. What they're doing now just strengthens them. Sure, they may have no roads, no missiles, no rockets, no infrastructure, no power. But they have a cause and an idea, and as long as there is people, there will be war.

At this point, they really have no other choice. Retreating won't do any good as the damage has already been done.

[peter12]

Not any more so than the Arab parties, or the secular 'dove' parties, or the modern religious party, or the secular 'hawk' party, or the 'Russian community' party, etc....

Yeah, that is kind of what I was trying to get at. But it was late and I just didn't want to go into detail.

[peter12]

Doesn't that depend on your perspective? Wouldn't the early VietCong have been 'terrorists', though today they're (technically) regarded as freedom fighters? The line is never, ever blurred?

When have the VietCong ever been regarded as freedom fighters?? :rolleyes:

Ever heard of the Hue City Massacre? It makes My Lai look like a picnic.

[Hakan]

When have the VietCong ever been regarded as freedom fighters?? :rolleyes:

Ever heard of the Hue City Massacre? It makes My Lai look like a picnic.
I'm sure you'll find many Vietnamese people that called them freedom fighters.

[peter12]

I'm sure you'll find many Vietnamese people that called them freedom fighters.

Probably not the families of the 1000s buried in mass graves outside of Hue.

[Agamemnon]

When have the VietCong ever been regarded as freedom fighters?? :rolleyes:

Ever heard of the Hue City Massacre? It makes My Lai look like a picnic.
Uh... the people of Vietnam consider them to be freedom fighters. Isn't their point of view the most important one? Oh... but you used rolly-eyes, so I guess you're right... touche.

My Lai was one incident. The US killed 1.5-4 million Vietnamese between '65 and '75 hunting down 'terrorists' (which the indigenous population did/does believe were freedom fighters).

Though, I suppose if the only valid viewpoint is a Western one, then the Godless commies won, and the dominoes are... just... about... to... fall. Gimme a break.

[Agamemnon]

Probably not the families of the 1000s buried in mass graves outside of Hue.
Maybe not them... but certainly the millions killed by American/South Vietnamese forces...

[peter12]

Uh... the people of Vietnam consider them to be freedom fighters. Isn't their point of view the most important one? Oh... but you used rolly-eyes, so I guess you're right... touche.

My Lai was one incident. The US killed 1.5-4 million Vietnamese between '65 and '75 hunting down 'terrorists' (which the indigenous population did/does believe were freedom fighters).

Though, I suppose if the only valid viewpoint is a Western one, then the Godless commies won, and the dominoes are... just... about... to... fall. Gimme a break.

The US involvement in Vietnam was by no means a unilateral endeavour. They were there at the request of the South Vietnamese government, (ARVN suffered 200 000 dead and 500 000 casualties total during the war) and to blame the civilian casualties on the Americans is absolute garbage.

There are many, many substantiated reports of ideological cleansing by the NVA and Vietcong, that may have resulted in 100s of thousands of civilian casualties.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Lanny,

I just wanted to say that it is extremely rare to find somebody as informed as you about the situation in the Middle East as you are in Canada. I've seen far too many people being brainwashed by CNN that it's frustrating to discuss it with most people I meet.

I wanted to thank you for taking a wll thought out position on this matter. Personally, I'm not a big fan of Israel and have disliked them since they bombed my native land (Tunisia) in the 80s to destroy suspected PLO training camps.

While I dislike Israel, like you I flip flop over what happens in that area based on the actions of poth sides. I think you have reasonably argued why what Israel is doing right now is wrong in so many ways. It always pains me to here that a people who have suffered so much persecution can have so little regard for human life.

Aside from the people they have killed directly with their bombs, Israel will harm thousands more by destroying Lebanon's infrastructure and isolating Beirut.

Thank you for the kind words.

I try to learn as much as possible about the events that have the potential to shape our world. I also do my best to read between the lines and understand what information really matters. There are two sides to every story, and somewhere in bewteen the extremes is the truth. Sadly, I find people here in North America accept one side of the story as the gospel and fail to understand the other side of the story. The propagandists on the extreme right have managed to poison the zeitgeist and align it with the messages they hope to resonate within the echo chamber. It is this echo effect that we see the results of for the most part. I feel it is our responsibility to educate ourselves on the facts and not succumb to the mind numbing stupidity that is portrayed as truth in the media. Without trying to understand the whole story, we become just another nodding head in a sea of yes men who let the actions we are witnessing in the middle east take place.

[White Doors]

Oh god.. that post makes me ill.

Echo chamber? HAHAHAHA!!
Lanny, go watch loose change again and nod away will ya?

[jolinar of malkshor]

Thank you for the kind words.

I try to learn as much as possible about the events that have the potential to shape our world. I also do my best to read between the lines and understand what information really matters. There are two sides to every story, and somewhere in bewteen the extremes is the truth. Sadly, I find people here in North America accept one side of the story as the gospel and fail to understand the other side of the story. The propagandists on the extreme right have managed to poison the zeitgeist and align it with the messages they hope to resonate within the echo chamber. It is this echo effect that we see the results of for the most part. I feel it is our responsibility to educate ourselves on the facts and not succumb to the mind numbing stupidity that is portrayed as truth in the media. Without trying to understand the whole story, we become just another nodding head in a sea of yes men who let the actions we are witnessing in the middle east take place.

Theres your problem....you read between the lines and come up with a bunch of paranoid mumble jumble. But thats just my opinion.

[redforever]

I think Israel is tired of it. They're tired of the suicide bombings and tired of the rockets flying into their territory and tired of the kidnappings. Tired of cafes full of kids exploding.

This is what Olmert said the other day: "Citizens of Israel, there are moments in the life of a nation, when it is compelled to look directly into the face of reality and say: no more," he said.

"We are fighting for the right to normal life, like any individual, like any people, like any country, like any state."


I happen to agree with him.

Too many people, especially in North America, get way too emotional about this situation, they spout off sounding like they want to kill anyone who does not agree with them. Why cant folks have a civilized discussion without going into name calling, swearing, put downs etc? Surely you dont think you come off sounding educated and informed when you act like a loose cannon.

We have to remember one thing. The suicide bombings, the rocket bombings, the invasions, forays, kidnappings, all of these things have not occurred in our backyard.

My father in law was forced to participate in World War II. He lived in Czechoslovakia at that time. Germany took over that country too, and like it or not, he was part of the Axis fighting against the Allies. He was on that mission that marched on foot all the way to Russia and back, in the middle of winter, over 4500 km. 90% of his unit was lost. When the war was over, he wanted better for his family and he emigrated to Canada, never lifting a gun again in his life. He found it very hard to talk about the war and what he had seen.

During the occupation of their home town, my mother in law and her sister lived in a vegetable pit for over 6 months. Otherwise the German soldiers raped most of the young women.

My father in law always said, until someone, or some group, or some country has occupied your country, until it has bombed your country, until it has demolished your home and possessions, until you have lost numerous family members, then you are immune to what goes on and can not come up with an accurate opinion.

We have not been witness to that on Canadian soil, how lucky we are. So we should be careful about voicing our opinions, and as Lanny has said, make informed decisions, not just listen to CNN.

Both sides involved in the current Middle East crisis have been witness to bombings, invasions and killings in their own country. And sometimes you have enough and you cant take anymore. I am sure if you talk to the average Dick or Jane in the streets, they all want peace, they all want a normal life, both sides would be willing to give concessions for peace.

But there are terrorists involved, not just average Dicks and Janes, you cant negotiate with them. They were brought up hating the so called enemy. And it takes generations to get rid of hate. There finally will come some colossal turning point, when both sides can take no more and then peace will be negotiated, sort of like what happened in Ireland a few years ago.

Children do not come into this world knowing how to hate. That is something that is acquired and learned in the family home. And when hate is learned that young, it is passed from one generation to the other. When will people start celebrating our differences instead of trying to make everyone else just like us? Many people are afraid of "different" , be it religion, ethnicity, sexuality, whatever, and quite often dont react well because they have not taken the time to find out what the difference involves. If we were all the same, the world would be one big pot of pureed pea soup!!! And if you are a parent, please, be careful what you say around your children. Dont let them be a witness to your hate of another nation or of another culture, just because you do. We all have to do our small part in stopping this cylce of hate, we all have to take our part in stopping the merry go round.

I just hope that it does not take another world war to be the colossal turning point in the current mess.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Theres your problem....you read between the lines and come up with a bunch of paranoid mumble jumble. But thats just my opinion.

Yeah, paranoid mumble jumble that just happens to make more sense than anything you've ever said. Keep swallowing what ever the media tells you, like the good little no-mind that you are. So what is the latest talking point this morning anyways?

[Agamemnon]

The US involvement in Vietnam was by no means a unilateral endeavour. They were there at the request of the South Vietnamese government, (ARVN suffered 200 000 dead and 500 000 casualties total during the war) and to blame the civilian casualties on the Americans is absolute garbage.

There are many, many substantiated reports of ideological cleansing by the NVA and Vietcong, that may have resulted in 100s of thousands of civilian casualties.
Well, we'll heartily agree to disagree. I'd contend that the US went into Vietnam to support (initially) French interests there, not Vietnamese. The US very clearly stated that they were preventing a dominoe effect of communism sweeping through South East Asia (the containment policy of which turned out to be a dud). And I also believe that you very much can blame most of the millions of deaths on the invading and occupying forces, the US being by far the most significant.

Did the bad guys win the Vietnam War? And if so, I presume those are the same 'terrorists' who run the country today, given that the regime is pretty much directly descended from Ho Chi Minh? I find it odd that US officials have open dialogue with this terrorist regime...

[spiteface]

More ppl dying. Did anybody watch the clip on CTV about the Elsaghirs last night?

[jolinar of malkshor]

Yeah, paranoid mumble jumble that just happens to make more sense than anything you've ever said. Keep swallowing what ever the media tells you, like the good little no-mind that you are. So what is the latest talking point this morning anyways?

Just so you know, I am privilaged to much more classified material than any media personel. So go ahead and make invalid claims.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Just so you know, I am privilaged to much more classified material than any media personel. So go ahead and make invalid claims.

Yeah, sure you are. Let me guess, you're a member of a gang too! :rolleyes:

[Azure]

More ppl dying. Did anybody watch the clip on CTV about the Elsaghirs last night?

Yeah, sad.

Did you hear the story about the Arab children killed by Hezbollah rockets? ;)

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Things out of control?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5196800.stm

Exit of foreign nationals signals escalation?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5197186.stm

War crimes charges coming on both sides?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5197544.stm

[jolinar of malkshor]

Yeah, sure you are. Let me guess, you're a member of a gang too! :rolleyes:

Well I don't expect you to believe me since you are paranoid about everything in your life and apparently only believe people who are blood relatives of yours.

[Cube Inmate]

But Lanny...what do those articles really say when you read between the lines?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

But Lanny...what do those articles really say when you read between the lines?

The region is ****ed! Frankly, this is near the tipping point for spinning out of control. At least that's what I read. We'll have to let Jokenar tell us what his classified sources say.

[Cube Inmate]

Insightful :rolleyes: Although...on this one thing, I'll finally agree with you.

The concept of "in control" is kind of lost already, though. If this thing settles down in the next couple of days/weeks...back to the status quo of (say) a couple of months ago...then things are still largely out of control. Hezbollah will still control S. Lebanon, and the "legitimate" leader of Lebanon has now come out and accused Israel of "cruel retaliation" or something to that effect. They're not going to be at a negotiating table anytime soon.

On the other hand, if this goes the distance and Israel invades and occupies Lebanon, it's even more out of control.

I.e./ "The region is ****ed!"

[jolinar of malkshor]

The region is ****ed! Frankly, this is near the tipping point for spinning out of control. At least that's what I read. We'll have to let Jokenar tell us what his classified sources say.

Ya well I am not going to lose my job and risk criminal charges by posting classified material to prove or disprove your points.

[HOZ]

Maybe not them... but certainly the millions killed by American/South Vietnamese forces...

Geezus merphy.

Umm....Like the North Vietnamese and Pol Pot. You know, like St. Noam's favourite friends?

Those boat people weren't fleeing bad bodyodor.

[Agamemnon]

Geezus merphy.

Umm....Like the North Vietnamese and Pol Pot. You know, like St. Noam's favourite friends?

Those boat people weren't fleeing bad bodyodor.
What the hell are you talking about? Boat people? Are you denying that US forces killed millions, or pointing out that the North also killed many?

As per the norm, your post is unintelligble.